SUPERMAN PRIME (holding nothing back) vs GOKU (with full access to the Dragon Balls)

[Hush]

Holy old ****ing thread.

 

[KevanG]

I think it's hilarious how many accounts have been made just to post one or two things in here then they never come back.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I think it's hilarious how many accounts have been made just to post one or two things in here then they never come back.

They must have all thought "hey! I bet NO ONE has ever thought of this!" and after imparting their wisdom and seemingly closing the discussion moved on to help others around the world (wide web).

But there is only three mathematical outcomes:

Both omnipotent beings agree to reside only within their own realms.

Both beings use infinite amounts of energy in an ininitessamally small amount of time, resulting in mutual destruction.

Both beings use infinitessamal amounts of energy infinitely, a fight that will never end (much like this discussion).

 

[KevanG]

Considering physics works totally different in their respective universes then if either came to the others then they'd both be screwed.

Just to put it easy for everyone, ignoring power levels because as the said in DBZ abridged "Power levels are bull****.", there's no way to verify how powerful either one is since there's nothing but fan fiction in both cases showing how powerful they are so that point. So it's moot as the only limit to either in this case is your imagination.

If you dropped them both somewhere so neither one had any powers but were just human level strong though, Goku would kick all sorts of ass since he's been training in martial arts for decades and Superman just kinda hits stuff with some training from Batman and others.

 

[Superman Earth1]

I never understood how people think Goku could beat God. Because that's pretty much who Superman Prime is. He can create life and planets with the wave of a hand. Time travel with a thought. So I'm just wondering how do you beat God.

 

[KevanG]

Googled superman prime vs goku and we're the top search

 

[cabel]

Seriously, no one's gonna mention the epic rap battle?

 

[OnePost]

Goku can destroy universes but Superman Prime can destroy and create universes.
The ability to create is much more important than to destroy.
Goku has early game but Superman Prime owns late game.
Goku is the better fighter but that doesn't automatically means he wins, not by a longshot.

Lucifer wins.

 

[DrCosmic]

Seriously, no one's gonna mention the epic rap battle?

[YT]0MW9Nrg_kZU[/YT]

And while we're at it, the death battle.
[YT]oyl97TG8jbA[/YT]

The thing is... those fights are at least interesting, but there's no fight here. Who wishes first? That's who wins. Both have the complete capability to blink each other out of existence with a thought. There's no 'fight.' There's just a race of brain impulses to the part of the brain that controls reality.

Is there any reason SSJ4 Goku can't wish Superman out of existence?
Is there any reason Superman Prime can't wish Goku out of existence?
So... where's the fight?

 

[KevanG]

Is there any reason for these two to fight at all? Neither one would be the type to just go somewhere and start breaking stuff and killing people. No reason for fight means no fight which means no reason for thread.

Close thread.

 

[MehMeh]

oh my goodness I started on page 1 and made it to 11 before I had to finally make a profile and post. Look guys, I know nothing of Superman Prime. And there is a lot of talk of canon and non-canon. But recall that when Superman had a crossover with "Aliens", as in, Ripley, Predators, etc., he had trouble beating one after a few days away from the sun. What would you rank an Alien in the DB universe? A level 10 to 50 maybe? So let's say superman did a bunch of stuff like sit in the sun for 15k years. What is the rate of power increase per minute in the sun? Does anyone know? So, a bunch of unanswered questions I'm starting with, so I'll just progress with my argument which centers on this fact: Vegeta in the first saga of DBZ maxed out at 18,000, power level. At a point far weaker than this, he EASILY destroyed a planet - maybe 10,000 power level, we'll say. By the end of DBZ Frieza saga, Goku was well beyond Frieza. What was Frieza's power level? He claimed 1 million at his SECOND transformation level, but then after two more transformations revealed that he was 1% of his power level. ok, so let's just say that he merely doubled his strength each subsequent transformation (more like 5x more it seemed). That would still put him at 400,000,000. Goku, at SSJ1, was at least 5 times more powerful than this. Am I wrong? This puts SSJ Goku at 2 billion power level. Now this is going to invoke disagreement, but I'm just assuming Frieza was telling the truth about his power - the show never gave us reason to doubt his statement. So that means Goku could destroy 200,000 planets without effort - one blast from his hand - at his weakest Super Saiyan level (2bilion divided by Vegeta's 10k). Now by the time they're facing Buu, the anime's version of God - the Supreme Kai, ruler over all Kai's - the one and supreme God - was a weak, useless character that could not even begin to attempt to face Buu. This Buu could scream so powerfully that he could rip wormholes in spacetime from sheer vibrationally force of his vocal cords. No magic required. No ultimate universal wussy tricks. This Buu had the powers to warp reality, as people brag about Superman Prime - he ate Goku. Goku was fighting Buu's mystical weird, surface warping insides where he was constantly faced with compressive muscles and acid and Buu himself. Goku was just like, gee whiz, this is weird, haha. He almost literally had fun in the process. Goku constantly faced competitors that could seemingly warp themselves into other shapes and 'augment reality' around him and he always found some way to survive. Why? Because even if Goku died, he could wish himself back with the dragonballs - the whole universe was on his side - all the kamis that governed the doors to death loved and respected Goku - they would let him use the dragon balls after death, assuming you won't let others bring Goku back. But my point is Goku doesn't need to wish for immortality in some out of character gesture - he just needs to wish himself back and as a saiyan, will be how many fold stronger upon return? At least a few. So let's take Goku at the end of the Buu saga - he must be at least 100 times stronger than at the end of Frieza saga (skipping the Cell saga all together!). 1000 times? 1 million times? I don't even know. In any case, we're up to 1 trillion. Now he can destroy 100,000,000 planets with no effort. When I say no effort - no powering up. Baseline. Moving along to GT - oh please, yes he gets spanked in his SSJ 4 form by android 17 and the final dragon is tough. But like some previous commenter mentioned, they were arbitrary, god like characters meant to be the penultimates like the Doomsday was to the original Superman. He needed to show he still relied on skills. BUT: what if Goku used his dragonballs to wish Vegeta to his side to form SSJ4 Gojeta or whatever it is called - frankly - he would do that and it is within the scope of the forum thread. SO - that would pretty much increase his powers exponentially from whatever SSJ4 was which had to be in the quadrillions or MORE. At this point, without effort, he could destroy galaxies and with his mind, just power ramping. Literally - he would just need to charge up and the galaxy is blown away before he throws an attack.

Why this never happened is indicated in Z when they perform in a tournament before Cell came along. Hercule (the world's strongest normal human) punches a strength bag and gets 180 or something as the reading. Even the weakest of the DBZ fighters, barely tapping the bag with a finger, get in the several hundreds. Vegeta just punches it out of the stadium. But the lowest reading was given by Goku, the strongest of them. He can control his energy.

Let's not underestimate Instant Transmission. I don't recall the specifics, but I'm pretty sure it was way faster than light. It was instant. So that means nothing can move faster than Goku. Yes, they were all moving almost light speeds by the end of Z. But Goku was moving much faster before fighting Cell. Importantly(!) Goku indicated signs of omnipotence while using Instant Transmission. He could sense energy levels, locations and even finer details of individuals and objects at other ends of the galaxy and then transport there instantly.

In the end my benchmark I'm using is Vegeta at 10K. They were destroyers of worlds at that power level. Half way through the series, "God's" plan was having Goku save the Universe. By the end, "God" was already killed (or fused) to attempt battle with one of enemies Goku laughed while fighting (he enjoys fights). But if you still find this Superman Prime so immovable, why couldn't Goku just wish for the all the Suns to be turned into moons (temporarily). Goku gains extra power from moonlight while in SSJ4 form. Or he could wish the Sun's light away temporarily.

I understand Superman Prime is invulnerable, but really guys, so is Goku - and Superman's reality warp is just plain not going to work on Goku in any effective way - it's been tried in similar methods in the DB series. It's just the scale of energy he can create by the end of GT is so ludicrous that it's beyond the energy of black holes. Well, well beyond them. Like, Goku could walk into a black hole and start giggling because it tickled. It was almost asinine because they had to do weird things like resurrect Buu in order for him to have challenges. I more than welcome a true story of why SMP would win though. But make it more interesting than "superman in a sun for 15,000 years". We need numbers - what is the rate of strength increase per minute?

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Superman Prime is omipotent. That's his power level. Infinity. He is everything, everywhere, everywhen.

He's a metafictional ideal. He's got the power of a comic book writer, that's his real power, to write his own story, which is why everyone gets happy endings.


That's why the discussion is stupid.

 

[Superman Earth1]

The problem most people have is they think of regular Superman in regards to this thread or Superboy Prime. Superman Prime from DC One Million who is the subject of this thread is God. That's why this topic is pointless and stupid there is no way you can beat God. I don't care if he had full access to the Dragon Ball's how can you beat a man who can see the past present and future. This is a person who would've saw Goku coming before Goku even knew they were going to fight.

 

[KevanG]

oh my goodness I started on page 1 and made it to 11 before I had to finally make a profile and post. Look guys, I know nothing of Superman Prime. And there is a lot of talk of canon and non-canon. But recall that when Superman had a crossover with "Aliens", as in, Ripley, Predators, etc., he had trouble beating one after a few days away from the sun. What would you rank an Alien in the DB universe? A level 10 to 50 maybe? So let's say superman did a bunch of stuff like sit in the sun for 15k years. What is the rate of power increase per minute in the sun? Does anyone know? So, a bunch of unanswered questions I'm starting with, so I'll just progress with my argument which centers on this fact: Vegeta in the first saga of DBZ maxed out at 18,000, power level. At a point far weaker than this, he EASILY destroyed a planet - maybe 10,000 power level, we'll say. By the end of DBZ Frieza saga, Goku was well beyond Frieza. What was Frieza's power level? He claimed 1 million at his SECOND transformation level, but then after two more transformations revealed that he was 1% of his power level. ok, so let's just say that he merely doubled his strength each subsequent transformation (more like 5x more it seemed). That would still put him at 400,000,000. Goku, at SSJ1, was at least 5 times more powerful than this. Am I wrong? This puts SSJ Goku at 2 billion power level. Now this is going to invoke disagreement, but I'm just assuming Frieza was telling the truth about his power - the show never gave us reason to doubt his statement. So that means Goku could destroy 200,000 planets without effort - one blast from his hand - at his weakest Super Saiyan level (2bilion divided by Vegeta's 10k). Now by the time they're facing Buu, the anime's version of God - the Supreme Kai, ruler over all Kai's - the one and supreme God - was a weak, useless character that could not even begin to attempt to face Buu. This Buu could scream so powerfully that he could rip wormholes in spacetime from sheer vibrationally force of his vocal cords. No magic required. No ultimate universal wussy tricks. This Buu had the powers to warp reality, as people brag about Superman Prime - he ate Goku. Goku was fighting Buu's mystical weird, surface warping insides where he was constantly faced with compressive muscles and acid and Buu himself. Goku was just like, gee whiz, this is weird, haha. He almost literally had fun in the process. Goku constantly faced competitors that could seemingly warp themselves into other shapes and 'augment reality' around him and he always found some way to survive. Why? Because even if Goku died, he could wish himself back with the dragonballs - the whole universe was on his side - all the kamis that governed the doors to death loved and respected Goku - they would let him use the dragon balls after death, assuming you won't let others bring Goku back. But my point is Goku doesn't need to wish for immortality in some out of character gesture - he just needs to wish himself back and as a saiyan, will be how many fold stronger upon return? At least a few. So let's take Goku at the end of the Buu saga - he must be at least 100 times stronger than at the end of Frieza saga (skipping the Cell saga all together!). 1000 times? 1 million times? I don't even know. In any case, we're up to 1 trillion. Now he can destroy 100,000,000 planets with no effort. When I say no effort - no powering up. Baseline. Moving along to GT - oh please, yes he gets spanked in his SSJ 4 form by android 17 and the final dragon is tough. But like some previous commenter mentioned, they were arbitrary, god like characters meant to be the penultimates like the Doomsday was to the original Superman. He needed to show he still relied on skills. BUT: what if Goku used his dragonballs to wish Vegeta to his side to form SSJ4 Gojeta or whatever it is called - frankly - he would do that and it is within the scope of the forum thread. SO - that would pretty much increase his powers exponentially from whatever SSJ4 was which had to be in the quadrillions or MORE. At this point, without effort, he could destroy galaxies and with his mind, just power ramping. Literally - he would just need to charge up and the galaxy is blown away before he throws an attack.

Why this never happened is indicated in Z when they perform in a tournament before Cell came along. Hercule (the world's strongest normal human) punches a strength bag and gets 180 or something as the reading. Even the weakest of the DBZ fighters, barely tapping the bag with a finger, get in the several hundreds. Vegeta just punches it out of the stadium. But the lowest reading was given by Goku, the strongest of them. He can control his energy.

Let's not underestimate Instant Transmission. I don't recall the specifics, but I'm pretty sure it was way faster than light. It was instant. So that means nothing can move faster than Goku. Yes, they were all moving almost light speeds by the end of Z. But Goku was moving much faster before fighting Cell. Importantly(!) Goku indicated signs of omnipotence while using Instant Transmission. He could sense energy levels, locations and even finer details of individuals and objects at other ends of the galaxy and then transport there instantly.

In the end my benchmark I'm using is Vegeta at 10K. They were destroyers of worlds at that power level. Half way through the series, "God's" plan was having Goku save the Universe. By the end, "God" was already killed (or fused) to attempt battle with one of enemies Goku laughed while fighting (he enjoys fights). But if you still find this Superman Prime so immovable, why couldn't Goku just wish for the all the Sun's to be turned into moons (temporarily). Goku gains extra power from moonlight while in SSJ4 form. Or he could wish the Sun's light away temporarily.

I understand Superman Prime is invulnerable, but really guys, so is Goku - and Superman's reality warp is just plain not going to work on Goku in any effective way - it's been tried in similar methods in the DB series. It's just the scale of energy he can create by the end of GT is so ludicrous that it's beyond the energy of black holes. Well, well beyond them. Like, Goku could walk into a black hole and start giggling because it tickled. It was almost asinine because they had to do weird things like resurrect Buu in order for him to have challenges. I more than welcome a true story of why SMP would win though. But make it more interesting than "superman in a sun for 15,000 years". We need numbers - what is the rate of strength increase per minute?

Blahblah wall of text. Not reading that.

I'm just going to promote a webcomic I found yesterday called DB Multiverse.

http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-0.html#h_read

Nothing with it besides DB characters and the occasional outside but still related character. Lots of fun and very well drawn/written with good characterization and pretty funny.

In any case on the topic at hand, pointless fight is pointless as everyone is as strong as they need to be to fight whoever as it has been for decades for each character. Neither wins but team up to fight (insert random BS OC character who is blatantly overpowered just as much as the other two).

 

[MehMeh]

"Blah blah wall of text"? Dude, if you're not going to argue the thread at hand other than "everything is as it should be", just get out of the thread. I don't recall this ever being settled.

Seriously, if someone knows Prime 1,000,000 well, throw down. Don't dilute the discourse with being obnoxiously useless.

 

[MehMeh]

"uperman Prime is omipotent. That's his power level. Infinity. He is everything, everywhere, everywhen.

He's a metafictional ideal. He's got the power of a comic book writer, that's his real power, to write his own story, which is why everyone gets happy endings.


That's why the discussion is stupid."

By the time Goku is just a figment in his Granddaughter's imagination - Pan is an old woman by then - he is higher than God - he is beyond, literally, anything in the universe of DBZ by orders of magnitude. Goku is also close to omnipotent at this stage.

This conversation is stupid, fine, but you're not getting the DBZ fanboy's point: Goku never worried about death since the start of Z. He has all the powers of the most powerful being in the universe and, like the Hulk, only gets stronger the more you fight him. Prime couldn't win forever.

 

[MehMeh]

"The problem most people have is they think of regular Superman in regards to this thread or Superboy Prime. Superman Prime from DC One Million who is the subject of this thread is God. That's why this topic is pointless and stupid there is no way you can beat God. I don't care if he had full access to the Dragon Ball's how can you beat a man who can see the past present and future. This is a person who would've saw Goku coming before Goku even knew they were going to fight."

Come on guys you're talking in circles. Describe how Prime couldn't be beaten in terms of his actual story and what he did. Throw down some numbers of approximate fold increase strength over original superman. Not "infinity", but in quintillions or something. To reach infinity he would need to have stayed in the Sun for infinity years.

Don't just say "Prime is like God", because "God" over all other kamis in the DBZ universe was a weakling of no comparison to Goku by the Buu saga.

Remember when Goku fought Cell? Cell could see Goku's moves before he did them. Goku plain beat him by moving faster than light and 'doing something he wouldn't expect'. If you are that skilled and can move so fast that atoms are motionless to you, then who cares about seeing the future? My point is Goku already faced enemies and other characters like that: reality warping, omnipotent, could see in the past and future (dragons, I'm pretty sure they did) and he was deemed their superiors.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Okay, here it is in order.

Superman, who is already immortal, spent 15, 000 years in the sun (then probably another several millennia).

Then he got 5 Dimensional powers. He became bigger than the universe, he can bend reality to his whim.

Then he went into the Source. The Source is a Jack Kirby concept for himself, and every comic book writer. He learned how to write the ending for his own story.

Then he gets the last Green Lantern ring.

In DC One Million, he resurrects Lois Lane as an immortal even though she had been dead for 871, 000 years. Then Krypton was resurrected. Then he time travelled under his own power to his past to mourn Jonathan Kent.

Superman Prime is all metafictional. He's the idea of Superman, and ideas are hard to kill. If you look at Goku's story, who does he resemble? THAT is why Superman wins, Superman Prime is an idea, and Goku is derivative of it.

 

[cabel]

Why do people keep bumping this thread?

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Because people make accounts thinking they have huge insights.

 

[KevanG]

Because it's a really stupid topic that no one can win and everyone who thinks they can win it because they have 'insight' into the character that no one else has wants to explain why everyone else is wrong.

"uperman Prime is omipotent. That's his power level. Infinity. He is everything, everywhere, everywhen.

He's a metafictional ideal. He's got the power of a comic book writer, that's his real power, to write his own story, which is why everyone gets happy endings.


That's why the discussion is stupid."

By the time Goku is just a figment in his Granddaughter's imagination - Pan is an old woman by then - he is higher than God - he is beyond, literally, anything in the universe of DBZ by orders of magnitude. Goku is also close to omnipotent at this stage.

This conversation is stupid, fine, but you're not getting the DBZ fanboy's point: Goku never worried about death since the start of Z. He has all the powers of the most powerful being in the universe and, like the Hulk, only gets stronger the more you fight him. Prime couldn't win forever.

So where does it say any of that about Goku? I never read anything about him having that type of power in the manga or anything by the creator that said that, if it's not from those sources then there's a good chance that it's all just some BS written by a deluded kid.

He's not higher than certain gods, that battle of the gods movie had him fight that one and he couldn't beat him.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I noticed an Aliens crossover reference earlier. See what happens? People complain about Superman being too powerful so writers give him a weakness, then DBZ fans swoop in and exploit it.

 

[DarkSovereignty]

How many times must we kill the same thread

 

[MehMeh]

Okay, here it is in order.

Superman, who is already immortal, spent 15, 000 years in the sun (then probably another several millennia).

Then he got 5 Dimensional powers. He became bigger than the universe, he can bend reality to his whim.

Then he went into the Source. The Source is a Jack Kirby concept for himself, and every comic book writer. He learned how to write the ending for his own story.

Then he gets the last Green Lantern ring.

In DC One Million, he resurrects Lois Lane as an immortal even though she had been dead for 871, 000 years. Then Krypton was resurrected. Then he time travelled under his own power to his past to mourn Jonathan Kent.

Superman Prime is all metafictional. He's the idea of Superman, and ideas are hard to kill. If you look at Goku's story, who does he resemble? THAT is why Superman wins, Superman Prime is an idea, and Goku is derivative of it.

Well, technically Superman is just a "derivative" of John Carter - an alien who found strange powers on a far away planet, so I don't see why Kakarot being yet another incarnation matters. All of those things you mention about time travel and resurrection (Goku could resurrect the whole universe with the dragon balls - who cares about a planet and a woman - and they did resurrect all the people in the world and beyond multiple times) are not impressive in the DBZ world, so we'll bump heads, eh? In fact, Goku traveled in time and in other dimensions on the show - big whoop.

I'm asking for the scenarios Prime was in where he used these powers - then we could judge from our experiences of Goku whether he'd survive them and overcome.

Surely they mention something quantitative about his strength, or at least how much stronger he is than the original superman. To put it in perspective based on what characters were doing in DBZ, the original Superman was probably at a power level of 8000, which Goku far exceeded before ever reaching SSJ level.

 

[MehMeh]

Because it's a really stupid topic that no one can win and everyone who thinks they can win it because they have 'insight' into the character that no one else has wants to explain why everyone else is wrong.



So where does it say any of that about Goku? I never read anything about him having that type of power in the manga or anything by the creator that said that, if it's not from those sources then there's a good chance that it's all just some BS written by a deluded kid.

He's not higher than certain gods, that battle of the gods movie had him fight that one and he couldn't beat him.

He is higher than THE God in the show. Whatever movie you're quoting is apparently "not canon" and thus not applicable.

As for Goku's superiority to the Supreme Kai, which is God in DB world, this is not even a question. He is, in the final episode, a dream. There is no way to even describe him then, which some people found vague. But there is no question he was the most powerful being in the DB universe. And with the dragonballs he could create as well as destroy. He already had telekinesis and telepathy.

I'm just trying to get a sense of what this Prime is. Goku bested what was essentially an overpowered Galactus in DB world (Buu). What's Prime gonna do any differently based on the comic book?

Llama mentioned Prime's ability to write his own ending. OK... well every single battle where Goku was initially outmatched has a clear ending, and then Goku rewrote it. That is the idea of Goku. Overcoming. Triumph. He is the very notion of being 100% dependable. A sure thing. His will fueled the ability to utilize literally most all the energy in the universe and focus it in a single attack, and his will fueled his return even from death. If Goku were ever to be truly beaten, the DB universe would be meaningless. Superman in any form, on the other hand, is the idea of strength and invincibility. But nothing so relatable as Goku's ethic of persistence. Heart. The idea of Goku is more than the idea of Superman in our frail human perspective because Goku is more than mere strength. He's the ultimate in refinement. And he represents what many of us wish to achieve in our own lives. He's an actual role model for real people.