Superman Returns Superman Returns is in continuity with the Donner Cut of Superman II! (Spoilers)

[Showtime]

Those who are trying to connect this new Donner Cut to Returns are just grasping at straws here, and I haven't even seen it yet. Singer has said numerous times that Returns uses previous Superman movies as a vague history. Obviously through numerous interviews, him and his staff still not in agreement as to which movies compile this "vague history". Sometimes it's STM, sometimes Superman 2, sometimes both. Sometimes Superman Returns is Superman III, sometimes it's the new Superman 2. It's never clear. That is the first problem, there should have been a staff meeting so all were on the same page in interviews. Standard operating procedure.

I don't see how Superman can be a dead beat dad, if he didn't know Lois was pregnant, which I am getting from Returns. I didn't realize everytime you have sex, it means the woman is automatically pregnant? I must have missed that class. Also, he is not a "mind-raper" because Returns continuity doesn't seem to include the turning back of time in my opinion. Lois doesn't seem taken aback that Superman is the father. She possibly knew all along.

In regards to the stalking thing, I assume you are refering to the X-Ray vision scene. That one is definately a questionable scene.

 

[charl_huntress]

I don't see how Superman can be a dead beat dad, if he didn't know Lois was pregnant, which I am getting from Returns. I didn't realize everytime you have sex, it means the woman is automatically pregnant? I must have missed that class. Also, he is not a "mind-raper" because Returns continuity doesn't seem to include the turning back of time in my opinion. Lois doesn't seem taken aback that Superman is the father. She possibly knew all along.

Good point, but the notion of him being a dead beat stems from the fact his actions are so....wierd. By not resolving how that pregnancy happened and the circumstance for the conception...the fact Supes later goes off on five year quest makes him look very irresponsible. Because we don't know how it happened, and the writers failed to establish which vagueness was correct, Supes inevitably ends up looking like a dead beat, irresponsible dad regardless of rather he knew or not.

As for the mind rape, he did that in SII (Lester) so that's a done deal. Yet, we dont' know if the mind rape is still in existence in SR, and it seems we will never know since the conclusion of SR is very...vague along with the history of the sex to begin with.

Again, Singer and his cahorts failed to clear this up. So both assumptions can be correct and have some validity.

 

[X Knight]

no.....having sex does not automatically mean the girl will get pregnant. But, there's always the possibility of that happening. And, if it is unprotected sex ( which seems to be the case in SR, as she did get pregnant ), then the chances are even greater.

So, Supes and Lois should have known the consequences of their consumating their relationship. That is, Superman and Lois should have known that there is the possibility of her getting pregnant.

And, it is NOT the girl's sole responsibility to inform the guy of her pregnancy. Sure, a RESPONSIBLE GIRL will tell her partner when she finds out. BUT, A RESPONSIBLE GUY WOULD STICK AROUND TO FIND OUT!!! IOW, he would still be a part of the girl's life, and he can ask her too if she is pregnant. It's his future child, too. As such, he has a responsibility to stick around.

So, that is why many of us have a problem with the Supes - Lois relationship in SR. They treat sex as a casual event......It appears that Supes slept with Lois, had his fun, but then left suddently at first word of Krypton's discovery. It's like he didn't even bother to STICK AROUND to find out if Lois is pregnant. Perhaps, she didn't even GET A CHANCE TO TELL HIM SHE'S PREGNANT......cuz he wasn't even around!!

And with Supe's powers, I'm sure he could have easily detected the presence of a fetus in Lois, moreso than the average guy could. His x-ray vision could have picked that up. So would his Super-hearing. And, he could do this as Clark, when he interacts with Lois everyday at the Planet. So Supes really has no excuse of NOT KNOWING Lois is pregnant........unless he didn't even bother to stick around and find out first.

So, the vague context of SR makes it sound like Supes left shortly after he slept with Lois........

 

[Killgore]

Attempting to find continuity in the Superman movies is like trying to find continuity in the Bond franchise.

 

[X Knight]

and what is worse, imo, is that SR IS MARKETED TO KIDS AND FAMILIES!!! When the dvd came out, I saw news reports of little kids happily dressed in their Superman outfits, munching their Papa John's pizzas, as they and their parents picked up the new DVD.

And therein lies the problem, for me, with this movie. Superheroes, especially Superman, are ROLE MODELS for our kids. Maybe not so much the darker characters, like Batman, Wolverine, Hulk, Daredevil. But the family-friendlier ones like Spidey and Supes are role models. When kids read or watch their favorite Superhero, tacitly, they want to be like that hero. That's part of the fantasy and the appeal.

So, when you take the most iconic of heroes, Superman, and you introduce a plot that is, at the very least, morally questionable, you are passing off such behavior as OK and acceptable. Now, I'm not saying kids are going to go out and have unprotected sex with reckless abandon because they watched SR. But, it just feeds into the current culture and mindset of treating women and sex with casual disregard.........

A Superman movie should be an example of high morals, nobility, responsibility, courage, and values. It should not have to explore the failings of Superman's paternal duties, which the sequel(s) are almost forced to deal with now.....

 

[buggs0268]

I don't see how Superman can be a dead beat dad, if he didn't know Lois was pregnant, which I am getting from Returns. I didn't realize everytime you have sex, it means the woman is automatically pregnant? I must have missed that class. Also, he is not a "mind-raper" because Returns continuity doesn't seem to include the turning back of time in my opinion. Lois doesn't seem taken aback that Superman is the father. She possibly knew all along.

The Superman in the Donner version would have owned up to being the father, and then gone over the specifics of why they have to keep it quiet, and dealt with Richard. He would have completely understood the awkwardness of the situation, and let Richard know that the whole thing is just a screwed up situation. He would have taken steps to become a financial contributor for his child. And he would have done it then and there. But the fact of the matter is, as of now (without a newer ending made by Donner/Mank and sticking with the current Donner cut ending) the kid would never have been conceived to begin with. So it is all a moot point.

 

[buggs0268]

Off topic

I just realized watching the Fleischer tunes that they don't even stay with Canon. If you watch the first one, Clark is found by a passing motorist and raised in an orphanage. The Kent's are nowhere to be found. Oh, and the cape is red in them. No burgundy. No maroon. Red. Bright RED. Red as the day is long. Red. Red. Red.

 

[bsquad]

The Lois and Superman relationship in SR was pretty much the following: 2 people fell in love, made love, and a child was an unexpected result of that love. Jason is the result of love between 2 people--not just casual sex.When it comes down to it I guess the questions comes down to asking was Superman right for leaving. What I got from the film was that there was not any wrong or right answer to that. Thats where part of the drama comes from.

On one hand we can understand why Superman left--to see if there were any survivors because he saw proof that krypton did not completly blow up (granted the return to krypton scene would have helped out here because it showed that there was truth to that info Superman was given. whole pieces of the planet was still there--but because of his exposure to kryptonite he could'nt fully explore it)

But on the other hand we understand why Lois is upset and why she fell in love with Richard. We understand why she felt let down by Superman and why she still loves him.

I personally don't see how a man not knowing the girl he was with was pregnant makes him a bad person or irresponsible. Could he have used his powers to listen for a heart beat? Yeah if he suspected she was pregnant, and if she was far enough ahead before he left for him to even think to. We know they loved each other and that they still love each other so its not like Superman was simply hitting and running. He left because being who he is and how he is he needed to seek the truth and to see if there were other survivors. Nothing wrong with that. And we know that Superman would like nothing more but to be with Lois and have a family. But as he learns in the film he can't have that in the way he would like to have that because Lois has moved on and has a family now. When the film ended did they go into details about who knows what exactly and how they know? No, because its a set up for a sequel when we will learn more about the situation.

Me? I like that they did something different-it gives them a chance to take the character and the situation into new territory.

I like that they don't ask everyone to side with Superman, and I felt that they did it in a way so that a person can understand why both sides did what they did-Superman was so in love that he felt saying goodbye might complicate a mission he had to take. Melodramatic? Yeah, but understandable since we know that being who he is doesn't allow him the luxary of making easy decisions when it comes to his personal life and his duties as the last son of krypton--no matter how easy it looks to everyone else who thinks of him as simply Superman and don't know that this symbol is more like them than they will ever know. Lois thought Superman was gone and never coming back for reasons she did not know so she continued on with her life. I like that Richard is a good normal man that Superman can not only be jealous of but respect. I like that Jason represents not only part of the connection Superman was looking for but a representation of life doing what life is supposed to do--change and move on.

I like Superman Returns for being different, for taking chances and opening doors to new possibilities for the Man of Steel.

 

[bsquad]

The Superman in the Donner version would have owned up to being the father, and then gone over the specifics of why they have to keep it quiet, and dealt with Richard. He would have completely understood the awkwardness of the situation, and let Richard know that the whole thing is just a screwed up situation. He would have taken steps to become a financial contributor for his child. And he would have done it then and there. But the fact of the matter is, as of now (without a newer ending made by Donner/Mank and sticking with the current Donner cut ending) the kid would never have been conceived to begin with. So it is all a moot point.

he didn't find out until the end of the film and when he did he went to see his son and yes he flew away--to do his Superman duties. All that stuff you listed could very well be the start of the situation in Superman Returns 2 or The Man of Steel or whatever they plan to call it. Not to mention that financial situations would probably be the least of their worries--Richard and Lois look like they are doing plenty fine the way they are living now. Plus is it really fair to just assume what the Donner version of the character would do, especially considring it is just that--an assumption

edit-you know all I read was the first part of what you said and I skipped the part where you pointed out it was all a moot point. my bad

 

[charl_huntress]

I like Superman Returns for being different, for taking chances and opening doors to new possibilities for the Man of Steel.

I think that is great that you like it for that, and I hope you understand that most people who don't care for this film do understand EXACTLY what Bryan Singer was TRYING to do.

Also, there are a lot of Superman fans who also like change in their Superman stories. A lot of people are open to that. Yet, that change needs to be in line with Superman. Heck! For SR, it just would have been nice if that change was in line with Donner's version of Superman.

Every time we go this route, the end argument is that you like what BSinger did, and all anyone who doesn't like the movie can say is that's great for you.

SR was a bad start for the franchise, and judging from the story it's quite obvious that Bryan Singer doesn't understand any of the positive aspects about Superman. He only understands his lonliness, frustration and inability to fit in with normal people. That is actually socia-phobe Bryan Singer's story too...at least according to what he said in the documentary.

 

[bsquad]

Every time we go this route, the end argument is that you like what BSinger did, and all anyone who doesn't like the movie can say is that's great for you.
.

its pretty much a cycle then because that goes the other way around as well. its really just an agree to disagree type of deal I guess

 

[X Knight]

yes, we'll have to agree to disagree......

as for the themes of loneliness, frustration, inability to fit in......we really didn't get any scenes to that effect. Well, except maybe the scene where Supes flies away crying.....

i mean, how cool would it have been if we SAW the remains of Krypton, so we could experience the barrennes, and desolation, and loneliness as Supes was experiencing it. Having a visual scene where we see Supes realizing that Krypton WAS NOTHING BUT A GRAVEYARD would have been infinitely more powerful than him just saying that to his mom.

also, it would have been even more challenging and dramatic if Supes had returned to a more Cynical world......y'know....a world that had indeed moved on and learned to live without him. Instead of instant applause and re-acceptance, Supes should have encountered hostility, indifference, and ungratefulness from the public. Y'know, make the public feel a bit betrayed and resentful towards Supes.T

hen, as Supes really questions whether or not the world really needs Superman still, he has to deal with the threat from Lex..........SR had so much potential.........it was just wasted on the wrong context........

I mean, a while back, I wrote out my ideas for a Superman restart / origin movie that used many of the same scenes and plots in SR, but in a different context.

Don't know if it's still here on the boards, but if any of you guys and gals are interested, I could repost it again......lol

 

[charl_huntress]

Go for it!

I see what you are saying, but the entire theme of the movie was about Supes' lonliness and disconnect from the people he cared for. The payoff at the end when he finds out about Jason was suppose to sell that and make you feel happy...not sad for him. LOL...it just didn't work.

I for one do not think those return to Krypton scenes would have added anything except more themes of lonliness and isolation. It would have been cool to see, no doubt. But, it wouldn't have helped that movie.

Nothing could have saved SR when BSinger came on board with his socia-phobe ways. I'm just hoping WB gets the man some counseling (and a leash) before he starts seriously working on the seqeuel.

 

[Max Shrek]

Off topic

I just realized watching the Fleischer tunes that they don't even stay with Canon. If you watch the first one, Clark is found by a passing motorist and raised in an orphanage. The Kent's are nowhere to be found. Oh, and the cape is red in them. No burgundy. No maroon. Red. Bright RED. Red as the day is long. Red. Red. Red.

In the original canon, he was found by a passing motorist, taken to an orphanage for a few years, caused trouble, the Kents found him, etc. It was later changed that he never grew up in an orphanage and the Kents just found him for it to be simplier.

 

[buggs0268]

In the original canon, he was found by a passing motorist, taken to an orphanage for a few years, caused trouble, the Kents found him, etc. It was later changed that he never grew up in an orphanage and the Kents just found him for it to be simplier.

Well yeah I knew that. I just figured by the time that these wer being made that the Kents were already part of the canon.

 

[romeogbs19]

A Superman movie should be an example of high morals, nobility, responsibility, courage, and values. It should not have to explore the failings of Superman's paternal duties, which the sequel(s) are almost forced to deal with now.....

100% agreed, and therein lies the fundamental problem with this movie. A strictly noble "I never lie" Superman may have left critics sour, but I think many of us wanted him to remain true to what he has always stood for.

And "Singerman" -- as some have dubbed this iteration -- falls far from that Superman canon.

 

[buggs0268]

he didn't find out until the end of the film and when he did he went to see his son and yes he flew away--to do his Superman duties. All that stuff you listed could very well be the start of the situation in Superman Returns 2 or The Man of Steel or whatever they plan to call it. Not to mention that financial situations would probably be the least of their worries--Richard and Lois look like they are doing plenty fine the way they are living now. Plus is it really fair to just assume what the Donner version of the character would do, especially considring it is just that--an assumption

edit-you know all I read was the first part of what you said and I skipped the part where you pointed out it was all a moot point. my bad

He still would have said that she, richard and he needed to talk.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

SR was a bad start for the franchise, and judging from the story it's quite obvious that Bryan Singer doesn't understand any of the positive aspects about Superman. He only understands his lonliness, frustration and inability to fit in with normal people. That is actually socia-phobe Bryan Singer's story too...at least according to what he said in the documentary.

Whatever happened to "Superman Returns is a very good movie" ?


Flip Flopping?

 

[Maze]

no.....having sex does not automatically mean the girl will get pregnant. But, there's always the possibility of that happening. And, if it is unprotected sex ( which seems to be the case in SR, as she did get pregnant ), then the chances are even greater.

Who said that?

A woman can get pregnant even with contraceptive you know.

 

[buggs0268]

Whatever happened to "Superman Returns is a very good movie" ?


Flip Flopping?

She was being sarcastic with her sig. She actually hated the movie. A lot of people missed her intent.

 

[Maze]

Go for it!
I see what you are saying, but the entire theme of the movie was about Supes' lonliness and disconnect from the people he cared for. The payoff at the end when he finds out about Jason was suppose to sell that and make you feel happy...not sad for him. LOL...it just didn't work.

It worked for me

 

[buggs0268]

But the point is that Superman reversed time so Lois would not have had his sperm in her, and there would have been no fertilization. So the fact is that SR does not happen in S2 Donner cut continuity. It would have happened in Lesters continuity as a kiss of forgetfulness does not erase egg ferilization. However, the kid would not be super as when they had sex, he was a human. So in either case, SR is an other-worlds offshoot of the two.

 

[Maze]

It doesn't happen in either continuity imo.

Vague history , Parralel universe to the Donner's one , call it what you wan't ..

a little like the Bond serie when i think about it( prior Casino Royal ).

 

[Brainiac 2009]

Reeve = Earth 2, Routh = Earth 1

Dean Cain = Quard Dimension

Welling = Superboy Prime


Crisis.

 

[Spade]

I've noticed no one has brought this up- would Clark even be aware that he could breed with human beings? Sure, he has similar anatomy. But the fact that he has similar anatomy doesn't mean he would have known fertilization occured. Frankly, he's an alien. Impregnating her in the comics is an impossibility, as his DNA strain is not compatible with normal humans. Perhaps the Clark of the Superman movies didn't know he was in such a risk by...well, 'doing the do' with her.

I'm not defending the film on this point- I feel Superman can be made interesting without developing him into this timeless character who needs a Grecian flaw, and that in hindsight the child as well as the notion that Superman is morally in a grey area through the child's existence was not a good plan. I'm not saying he was right in what he does in the film, nor was he wrong for wanting to find any survivors of his planet in his idealism. I'm just saying all this could have been avoided.