Superman Returns Superman Returns is in continuity with the Donner Cut of Superman II! (Spoilers)

[X Knight]

and yes, a woman can get pregnant with contraceptive. that's why I said whenever a guy and girl have sex, there's ALWAYS the chance of pregnancy.

And that's also why sex shouldn't be treated so lightly or casually........

as for Clark being able to even have children, that's also an issue. I remember an episode in Smallville where Clark was thinking about that, wondering if he could even have kids of his own.

 

[Maze]

and yes, a woman can get pregnant with contraceptive. that's why I said whenever a guy and girl have sex, there's ALWAYS the chance of pregnancy.

And that's also why sex shouldn't be treated so lightly or casually........

Ok.

but who said everybody (and especially Superman) treat it lightly?
it was surely an act of love , i think we agree on that matter (? ) then , for whatever reasons (but like countless hero in litterature , comics and movie ) Superman realized he couldn't be with this woman that he loves.

don't you think that if you took a contraceptive , and you discovered that there was a way maybe to forget the only woman that you love , you would be depressed and not just think "heyy i took a contraceptive , but who know? "

There is no hint that Superman took it lightly.. but rather, that it was rather important for him.. if not he would had stayed around ,"happy" and would have just said "sorry Lois , it was fun , but it was a one night stand you know "

 

[Maze]

Reeve = Earth 2, Routh = Earth 1

Dean Cain = Quard Dimension

Welling = Superboy Prime


Crisis.

lol Yup ,it is in the realm of possibilities.

 

[charl_huntress]

Whatever happened to "Superman Returns is a very good movie" ?


Flip Flopping?

You never figured out that sig??????? How many of your are still wondering about that?????

Man, I thought it was soooooo patently obvious what I was really saying. I also thought the heavy dose of sarcasm, especially considering my posts, made that evident.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

edit:

I didn't actually say those words and I'll try hard not to because I want people to see the movie, buy the DVD, and if they liked it watch it again and again.

 

[charl_huntress]

as for Clark being able to even have children, that's also an issue. I remember an episode in Smallville where Clark was thinking about that, wondering if he could even have kids of his own.

This debate still rages. I'm with the crew that says it is possible because he's humaniod.

Yet, I agree with super-bats. Superman sex shouldn't not have been treated that casually. The confusion over paternity shouldn't have been that deep in a Superman movie, and Richard shouldn't have been the hero in a Superman movie.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

You never figured out that sig??????? How many of your are still wondering about that?????

Man, I thought it was soooooo patently obvious what I was really saying. I also thought the heavy dose of sarcasm, especially considering my posts, made that evident.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

edit:

I didn't actually say those words and I'll try hard not to because I want people to see the movie, buy the DVD, and if they liked it watch it again and again.

Well I just saw the SIG, not your posts, so I couldnt have known.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

This debate still rages. I'm with the crew that says it is possible because he's humaniod.

If Lex and Superman's DNA can mix in the comics creating an offspring; Kon-El........its possible.


Though I'd much rather prefer Lois and Superman as the parents....... than Lex and Supes.

 

[X Knight]

come to think of it......3 of the most important people in Supes' life have the initial LL!!

There's Lois Lane, Lana Lang, and Lex Luthor....

Man, that must be tough for Supes when he gets that valentine's day gift.....cryptically signed LL....

 

[charl_huntress]

Well I just saw the SIG, not your posts, so I couldnt have known.

Well...now you know.

 

[buggs0268]

You never figured out that sig??????? How many of your are still wondering about that?????

Man, I thought it was soooooo patently obvious what I was really saying. I also thought the heavy dose of sarcasm, especially considering my posts, made that evident.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

edit:

I didn't actually say those words and I'll try hard not to because I want people to see the movie, buy the DVD, and if they liked it watch it again and again.

I think you need to put this thing ( ) after it for them to get it.

 

[charl_huntress]

I think you need to put this thing ( ) after it for them to get it.

lol...maybe, but my posts trashed the movie enough. LOL...the sig was suppose to inspire confusion (I guess)...and it worked

 

[Darkest Knight]

This is why the concept of Singer's movie fails. Way too many holes.

 

[mego joe]

After watching the surprise ending to the Donner Cut, I realized SR fits directly into this timeline.

Perhaps Singer (in contact with Donner) was aware of the storyline for the Donner Cut when planning how the SR story would flow.


Basically Superman turns back time on Earth in the end (retconning the Zod Crisis from ever happening...which is why it is avoided in the history presented in the prequel comics).

This also explains why Lois doesnt know that Clark and Superman are the same person.


This allows for Superman to have a relationship with Lois (referenced in the vague history of SR) after the events of Superman II without knowing him and Clark are the same man. After everything that went wrong in Superman II, its understandable why Superman wouldnt want her to know about him being Clark just yet, and probably has devoted himself to doing a better job with the masquerade of Clark (which may explain why Routh's Clark is alot more subdued).


So, I guess it all makes sense now.... or does it?

If he turned back time, wouldn't that mean he reversed and negated the facted that they had sex?

Without directly addressing the issue we'll never know, but it seems just as plausible. Plus I think the whole point of turning time back is that is the only way Superman can make amends for 'failing' and being 'selfish' as he put it in the film. It puts everything back the way it was before the film began. The difference is that SUperman has learned not to make the same mistakes again.

So, it makes no sense for him to turn around and leave for 5 years since the whole point of SII: The Donner Cut is for SUperman to learn the importance of being Earth's full time protector all the time and putting the people of Earth first before anything else.

 

[mego joe]

and what is worse, imo, is that SR IS MARKETED TO KIDS AND FAMILIES!!! When the dvd came out, I saw news reports of little kids happily dressed in their Superman outfits, munching their Papa John's pizzas, as they and their parents picked up the new DVD.

And therein lies the problem, for me, with this movie. Superheroes, especially Superman, are ROLE MODELS for our kids. Maybe not so much the darker characters, like Batman, Wolverine, Hulk, Daredevil. But the family-friendlier ones like Spidey and Supes are role models. When kids read or watch their favorite Superhero, tacitly, they want to be like that hero. That's part of the fantasy and the appeal.

So, when you take the most iconic of heroes, Superman, and you introduce a plot that is, at the very least, morally questionable, you are passing off such behavior as OK and acceptable. Now, I'm not saying kids are going to go out and have unprotected sex with reckless abandon because they watched SR. But, it just feeds into the current culture and mindset of treating women and sex with casual disregard.........

A Superman movie should be an example of high morals, nobility, responsibility, courage, and values. It should not have to explore the failings of Superman's paternal duties, which the sequel(s) are almost forced to deal with now.....

You just saved me a lot of typing in this thread....

 

[mego joe]

In the original canon, he was found by a passing motorist, taken to an orphanage for a few years, caused trouble, the Kents found him, etc. It was later changed that he never grew up in an orphanage and the Kents just found him for it to be simplier.

In the first full origin from SUperman #1 1939, the Kents find him, take him to the orphanage, he causes trouble and the Kents come back to get him b/c they can't stop thinking about him. The orphanage director is glad to get rid of him and he speeds the adoption process through.

 

[mego joe]

Ok.

but who said everybody (and especially Superman) treat it lightly?
it was surely an act of love , i think we agree on that matter (? ) then , for whatever reasons (but like countless hero in litterature , comics and movie ) Superman realized he couldn't be with this woman that he loves.

don't you think that if you took a contraceptive , and you discovered that there was a way maybe to forget the only woman that you love , you would be depressed and not just think "heyy i took a contraceptive , but who know? "

There is no hint that Superman took it lightly.. but rather, that it was rather important for him.. if not he would had stayed around ,"happy" and would have just said "sorry Lois , it was fun , but it was a one night stand you know "

IF it was important, if he didn't take it lightly, if it was an act of love he would have been able to tell Lois the truth about leaving for a 5 year space mission. That is why it seems he took it lightly. HE is clearly not thinking of Lois and their love, he is only thinking about himself. And he is not thinking of any consequences. B/c if he was he would have said something.

 

[Brainiac 2009]

If Superman was always marketed to kids, why were Superman and Lois having a sexy sleepover in the Fortress in Superman II?


Surely that would have tramuatized a whole generation of kids from Superman....clearly it didnt, because you people are still here.

 

[The Kid]

Well after finally having seen the donner cut, I have to ask seriously... is this thread a joke?

There's no way I can believe the superman reeve masterfully portrayed would do any of the things in Singer's movie. I twist and turn it over in my mind but there's no way these connect outside of very superficial things singer stole...

 

[Substance D]

Well after finally having seen the donner cut, I have to ask seriously... is this thread a joke?

There's no way I can believe the superman reeve masterfully portrayed would do any of the things in Singer's movie. I twist and turn it over in my mind but there's no way these connect outside of very superficial things singer stole...

Yeah! You tell 'em, Wesyeed!

 

[Showtime]

Good point, but the notion of him being a dead beat stems from the fact his actions are so....wierd. By not resolving how that pregnancy happened and the circumstance for the conception...the fact Supes later goes off on five year quest makes him look very irresponsible. Because we don't know how it happened, and the writers failed to establish which vagueness was correct, Supes inevitably ends up looking like a dead beat, irresponsible dad regardless of rather he knew or not.

As for the mind rape, he did that in SII (Lester) so that's a done deal. Yet, we dont' know if the mind rape is still in existence in SR, and it seems we will never know since the conclusion of SR is very...vague along with the history of the sex to begin with.

Again, Singer and his cahorts failed to clear this up. So both assumptions can be correct and have some validity.

I understand what you are saying, and it is certainly debatable, but it is impossible to be a dead-beat dad if you do not know you are a dad. If a woman has a child and doesn't tell the father, the father lives in say Florida, he returns to NY and finds out he is a father. How is he a dead beat dad? I understand Lois couldn't tell him because he left, so it is a complicated situation.

I think there was no way he could have owned up to it within the realm of this movie, he found out he was the father at the end of the story.

 

[Showtime]

The Superman in the Donner version would have owned up to being the father, and then gone over the specifics of why they have to keep it quiet, and dealt with Richard. He would have completely understood the awkwardness of the situation, and let Richard know that the whole thing is just a screwed up situation. He would have taken steps to become a financial contributor for his child. And he would have done it then and there. But the fact of the matter is, as of now (without a newer ending made by Donner/Mank and sticking with the current Donner cut ending) the kid would never have been conceived to begin with. So it is all a moot point.

Everything you are saying is relevant to the character of Superman, I agree. The problem is that it doesn't fit with in the Returns story. As another poster mentioned, within the realm of the story, Superman found out at the end. This means that the sequel will have a side story arc involving how Superman handles the situation. I think that Superman was given a reality check during Returns and realizes that just because he is Superman he can't have it his way.

 

[Maze]

IF it was important, if he didn't take it lightly, if it was an act of love he would have been able to tell Lois the truth about leaving for a 5 year space mission. That is why it seems he took it lightly. HE is clearly not thinking of Lois and their love, he is only thinking about himself. And he is not thinking of any consequences. B/c if he was he would have said something.

You and me already talked in depht about that Mego.

We will never agree Mego it's useless.

 

[Maze]

I think that Superman was given a reality check during Returns and realizes that just because he is Superman he can't have it his way.

Yup , that's one of the subtext of the movie imo too.

 

[X Knight]

yes, showtime, it is a complicated situation, with a vague context.

And, yes, Superman SHOULD be given a reality check. I just felt that the movie DIDN'T have such a strong scene where he was given a reality check. True, he didn't find out until the end of the movie. But, aside from giving that "Father becomes the Son" speech at the end, we really don't know what his intentions will be. Does that mean he is going to "let go" of Jason and watch him from afar as he is raised by Richard and Lois?

A more powerful reality check scene, imo, would've been, at the end, Supes flies by Richard's and Lois' house and sees the three of them together, happy, in a strong familial unit. Superman would watch them from afar, and give, perhaps, an envious smile, realizing that he has missed out on 5 years of his OWN son's life, yet recognizing the strong bond Jason already has with Richard and Lois as his "parents."

Thus, Superman vows to atone for his absence, to watch over and protect this budding family......to be "Always around."

 

[X Knight]

also, as you said, Lois couldn't tell Supes because he left too soon. Or, at least that is what the movie is implying.

And, Supes left, of his own volition. He chose to leave, he chose to walk out of Lois' life. Thus, he neither stuck around to find out the "fruition" of their sexual relation, nor did he give Lois a chance to tell him.

And, that, for me, is irresponsible. As I've said, it is NOT the woman's SOLE duty to tell the man she is pregnant. That is, a man should not have to wait around for his woman to tell him if she is pregnant. He can follow-up himself and ask her and stay involved in her life. At the very least, I would think he would be somewhat curious of the outcome of their love making. If the guy is not, then he is just looking for fun without the responsiblity.

And, if a guy skips town and leaves before the woman even has a chance to tell him, then that is irresponsible. How do we know Lois would not have told him? Maybe she would have, except he didn't give her the chance, cuz he left so soon.

Now, perhaps Singer was not trying to portray Superman in that light. But, by creating the story and context he did, that's how his Superman comes across to some people, such as myself.

So, for me, the argument that "Supes wasn't a deadbeat dad because he didn't even know he was a dad" doesn't fly. Supes not knowing was ENTIRELY HIS FAULT. He didn't have the responsibility to stick around and find out himself, either by asking Lois directly or using his powers to detect a fetus ( if, say, Lois was trying to hide it ). Nor, did he give Lois the chance to tell him anyways, as he left so abruptly.

Superman WAS NOT forced to leave everything behind to see Krypton. He made the choice himself. And in doing so, he placed his own need to rediscover his birth planet ( his past ) over his desire to be with Lois, continue their relationship, and start a potential family, as well as to protect his adopted planet ( his present and future ). So, Superman put HIS needs ahead of the needs of OTHERS ( lois and the people of earth ). That is selfish.