TDK vs CA: TWS

[Red Mask]

It's Captain America: Winter Soldier for me. It has so many great elements that are inspiring.

 

[BlackFox]

Cap2 is certainly entertaining and one of the best MCU films in my book but its not quite ever going to be as iconic as TDK was. The performances overall in TDK were just a little bit better than Cap2 which was helped by having the slightly better script and narrative as well. Just comparing The Joker against The Winter Soldier is a bit of a miss-match.

This isnt trying to bash Cap2 though its just that TDK is superior IMO against all others so far before or since, but at least Cap 2 is the closest Marvel have come to achieving that level, even better than Avengers in my eyes.

But TDK still is on top of the pile for me.

 

[DACrowe]

One way to look at is six years later (has it really been that long?!) we are still holding The Dark Knight as the gold standard.

Does it feel like TWS will have that kind of longevity as a film or story? If you are honest, it is pretty obvious that it will not.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

One way to look at is six years later (has it really been that long?!) we are still holding The Dark Knight as the gold standard.

Does it feel like TWS will have that kind of longevity as a film or story? If you are honest, it is pretty obvious that it will not.

How so?

 

[DACrowe]

Cap was not the star of Winter Soldier, IMO. SHIELD was.

I would actually agree with this. Cap is the star technically speaking, but the driving force is the fate of SHIELD and the only character with an arc in the whole damn movie is Nick Fury. He is the one who kills the bad guy and (along with BW) decides to let SHIELD's dirty laundry go public.

Cap is far more a cut-and-dry entity in that movie than how some detractors like to paint Bale's Batman in TDK. TDK is an ensemble to be sure that is driven as much by the Joker's primal need for anarchy and Harvey Dent's tragic fall, as it is Bruce's arc. But both characters are direct reactions to the existence of Batman and the events that facilitate all of their actions is Batman's presence. Also, Bruce has a huge arc of (ahem) going from being the hero (or vigilante) to becoming through loss and hard-earned wisdom Gordon's titular Dark Knight. The hero they need and all that.

The fact that this can also be told in a story that does an incredible job of telling the Harvey Dent tragedy and works in subplots about corrupt law enforcement (which feels far more unnerving than SHIELD being taken over by Cobra) and one that revels in societal anxieties of its era through torture, wiretapping, and Joker representing the chaotic boogeyman society dreads...

It is still very, very impressive. It is why we are still talking about it.

 

[DACrowe]

How so?

While very entertaining, none of the (well-acted) performances, competent direction, amusing screenplay, or barely-utilised cultural parables really stick out as great.

Nobody is coming out raving about a performance in TWS like Ledger (or I might even argue Oldman). Likewise, there is not going to be an Oscar campaign to get TWS nominated for Best Picture or years-later articles and think pieces written about the subtext of TWS. Nobody is going to be quoting Pierce or The Winter Soldier every Halloween for an ensuing decade.

It just does not have the same level of impact from either an artistic, commercial, or pop culture standpoint that The Dark Knight did. So, yes I doubt it will be held any higher than Iron Man is in a few years from now.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

One way to look at is six years later (has it really been that long?!) we are still holding The Dark Knight as the gold standard.

Does it feel like TWS will have that kind of longevity as a film or story? If you are honest, it is pretty obvious that it will not.

Well....yeah to the people who love it.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

While very entertaining, none of the (well-acted) performances, competent direction, amusing screenplay, or barely-utilised cultural parables really stick out as great.

Nobody is coming out raving about a performance in TWS like Ledger (or I might even argue Oldman). Likewise, there is not going to be an Oscar campaign to get TWS nominated for Best Picture or years-later articles and think pieces written about the subtext of TWS. Nobody is going to be quoting Pierce or The Winter Soldier every Halloween for an ensuing decade.

It just does not have the same level of impact from either an artistic, commercial, or pop culture standpoint that The Dark Knight did. So, yes I doubt it will be held any higher than Iron Man is in a few years from now.

Umm, that's really broad. Maybe professional critics won't hold it higher/on the same level but they don't hold ANYTHING on the same level. So that point is kind of mute.

Fans on the other hand are a different story. I personally feel the writing in TWS is much better than in TDK. So it's already held in higher regard.

 

[Red Mask]

The Dark Knight is certainly not the gold standard fans believe it to be. I have not once been interested in watching it again in full since its theatrical release. It's not even a great superhero film. The first contemporary film to actually achieve the benchmark was Raimi's Spider-Man 2, IMHO.

Yes, I'm being honest about that. I'm actually glad that The Winter Soldier did not do all the tropes you get in a part 2 sequel. The Dark Knight was more guilty of that. I loved that great sense of camaraderie that Nolan's films lacked. But that's no surprise because of the loner, privileged position that Batman takes as opposed to the blue collar, military background of Captain America. Winter Soldier answered the question that Watchmen asked: who watches the Watchmen? Answer: heroes brave enough to stand up, like those who opposed HYDRA. They are part of the authorities, even if they've been infiltrated from within. It supports the belief that the system is not completely corrupt. You don't need one privileged man to make those choices in spite of the people's support.

 

[Fudgie]

The Dark Knight is certainly not the gold standard fans believe it to be. I have not once been interested in watching it again in full since its theatrical release. It's not even a great superhero film. The first contemporary film to actually achieve the benchmark was Raimi's Spider-Man 2, IMHO.

Ehhh yeah TDK is the gold standard that's why most people believe it, because it's true. Before TDK Spidey 2 was the king, and it's still an aces movie but not as good as TDK.

No superhero movie is. That's why it's the best. Just because you're like one of the few peeps who doesn't think it's all that doesn't make it true.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Opinions guys, opinions.

 

[Skrilla31]

Ehhh yeah TDK is the gold standard that's why most people believe it, because it's true.

Yea but is it because of how well the movie is made or because everyone is in love with Ledger's Joker. At the very least you could say the success of that movie - both critically and commercially - hinged on that performance.

The thing is I love TDK but that doesn't mean I am blind to it's faults. It is definitely iconic and transcendent but it's place in culture doesn't speak to the quality of the film. At least not for me.

As far as superhero movies go I don't believe we've seen the gold standard yet. We've yet to see a real PERFECT superhero movie. All of the best ones in the running have had some pretty major flaws.

 

[The Joker]

Yea but is it because of how well the movie is made or because everyone is in love with Ledger's Joker. At the very least you could say the success of that movie - both critically and commercially - hinged on that performance.

I think it's obvious it's for how well the movie is made. No movie could garner the praise and success TDK has because of a singular supporting character performance.

If you actually read the positive reviews for the movie, Ledger is far from being the only part of the movie that is praised.

 

[Skrilla31]

I think it's obvious it's for how well the movie is made. No movie could garner the praise and success TDK has because of a singular supporting character performance.

If you actually read the positive reviews for the movie, Ledger is far from being the only part of the movie that is praised.

I think if there was one thing most people took away from that movie above all else it was the Joker performance.

I'm not saying it didn't have it's own fair share of redeeming qualities but I think if you waited outside of a theater and asked every single person the moment after they had saw it what did they like the most about it... I think the the most popular answer by a country mile would have been "The Joker".

 

[The Joker]

I think if there was one thing most people took away from that movie above all else it was the Joker performance.

I'm not saying it didn't have it's own fair share of redeeming qualities but I think if you waited outside of a theater and asked every single person the moment after they had saw it what did they like the most about it... I think the the most popular answer by a country mile would have been "The Joker".

Yes, he might be a favorite part of the movie for many people. But it's not the only thing they love about the movie.

You asked if it's so loved because everyone is in love with the Joker, implying he's the sole reason it is so acclaimed, which is a complete falsity. There's a lot to love about TDK besides the Joker, and the feedback from the movie reflects that.

Joker being the fan favorite of the bunch doesn't make him the only reason it is so loved. Which is why I always face palm when some people say if you took the Joker out of the movie it wouldn't be so loved. If you take any key character out of a movie, be it Vader from The Empire Strikes Back, Hannibal Lecter from The Silence of the Lambs, Hans Landa from Inglorious Basterds etc they're not going to be as good.

 

[The Shape]

One way to look at is six years later (has it really been that long?!) we are still holding The Dark Knight as the gold standard.

Does it feel like TWS will have that kind of longevity as a film or story? If you are honest, it is pretty obvious that it will not.

Agreed. TWS is seeingly the best Marvel Studios film to date. It does so much well and was successful in what it tried to do. Definitely didn't feel pointless like Thor 2 did. Overall, it was an extremely well-made film and I enjoyed it very much.

But TDK is just on another level. It doesn't just succeed as a DC film or superhero story. It goes far beyond that. Everything from the performances, cinematography, pacing, story structure, and musical score were top notch. I definitely don't think TWS will be held in the same regard as TDK as time stretches on.

 

[Skrilla31]

Yes, he might be a favorite part of the movie for many people. But it's not the only thing they love about the movie.

You asked if it's so loved because everyone is in love with the Joker, implying he's the sole reason it is so acclaimed, which is a complete falsity. There's a lot to love about TDK besides the Joker, and the feedback from the movie reflects that.

Joker being the fan favorite of the bunch doesn't make him the only reason it is so loved. Which is why I always face palm when some people say if you took the Joker out of the movie it wouldn't be so loved. If you take any key character out of a movie, be it Vader from The Empire Strikes Back, Hannibal Lecter from The Silence of the Lambs, Hans Landa from Inglorious Basterds etc they're not going to be as good.

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that because I wasn't.

People can like it for all the reasons they want but I believe it was the Joker character that elevated the film into the realm of pop culture phenomenon. Basically what I'm saying is that just because a movie is classic, doesn't mean it is a perfect movie.

TDK was good in a lot of ways but I also happen to believe it was bad in a few as well. So for those reasons I cannot consider it a "gold standard" for superhero movies as long as we're talking quality.

 

[The Shape]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that because I wasn't.

People can like it for all the reasons they want but I believe it was the Joker character that elevated the film into the realm of pop culture phenomenon. Basically what I'm saying is that just because a movie is classic, doesn't mean it is a perfect movie.

TDK was good in a lot of ways but I also happen to believe it was bad in a few as well. So for those reasons I cannot consider it a "gold standard" for superhero movies as long as we're talking quality.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that TDK was completely perfect. No film is, art is subjective, blah blah blah.

But to suggest that the Joker is the main reason that the film was elevated to the level of "pop culture phenomenon" is ridiculous. Was he a big part of the film's overall success? Absolutely. He's an amazing character and is in some ways nearly as iconic and recognizable as Batman himself. Heath Ledger also turned in a truly memorable performance.

The character's success in TDK can be attributed to the strength of the source material, the writing on the film, and direction by Nolan, AND Ledger's performance. But if the rest of TDK was weak, the film would certainly not have received the immense praise or financial success that it ultimately did.

 

[Skrilla31]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that TDK was completely perfect. No film is, art is subjective, blah blah blah.

But to suggest that the Joker is the main reason that the film was elevated to the level of "pop culture phenomenon" is ridiculous. Was he a big part of the film's overall success? Absolutely. He's an amazing character and is in some ways nearly as iconic and recognizable as Batman himself. Heath Ledger also turned in a truly memorable performance.

The character's success in TDK can be attributed to the strength of the source material, the writing on the film, and direction by Nolan, AND Ledger's performance. But if the rest of TDK was weak, the film would certainly not have received the immense praise or financial success that it ultimately did.

Not arguing that TDK was "weak" but I could see a lot of people being so mesmerized by the Joker that they are able to look past some of the weaker aspects of the film.

Sure if we are talking about what it was able to accomplish culturally than TDK is no doubt one the greatest superhero movies ever made but if we're just objectively looking at quality - which again is tough because as you stated it's hard to be objective about something so subjective in the first place - then I have no problem with anyone that believes TWS was the better movie.

 

[InJustice]

Cap 2 is a perfectly executed modern Captain America movie.

TDK was a pop culture phenomenon.

But without Ledger's legendary performance Cap 2 would win easily.

There's a lot more that The Dark Knight has going for it than simply Ledger's performance. The character arcs, the parallels between Bruce and Harvey, the script that took the source material beyond the confines of the comic book and applied it to real world issues.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier did amazing, but IMO it's not nearly as iconic or having as significant an impact as The Dark Knight.

 

[Predator]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that because I wasn't.

People can like it for all the reasons they want but I believe it was the Joker character that elevated the film into the realm of pop culture phenomenon. Basically what I'm saying is that just because a movie is classic, doesn't mean it is a perfect movie.

TDK was good in a lot of ways but I also happen to believe it was bad in a few as well. So for those reasons I cannot consider it a "gold standard" for superhero movies as long as we're talking quality.

Being the gold standard doesn´t mean the movie is perfect. Every movie has flaws. What it means is that it is widely considered the best Comic Book movie ever made. And to argue if that´s because of The Joker or anything else, makes absolutely no sense. It´s like saying Captain America wouldn´t be so good without the fight scenes. I don´t see the point of trying to evaluate a movie without considering all its elements. Without the Joker, we would have no movie, so we can´t possibly know how good it would have been.

Everything about TDK is great. That´s why it is considered the "Gold Standard". A movie can have an amazing performance without being considered great. There are many examples of that. But that´s not TDK´s case.

As far as TWS being better, that´s just a matter of opinions. Every opinion is valid. You can like whatever you want. There´s nothing wrong with being the minority.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Yup, without Ledger's performance TDK wouldn't be as good and without the crazy action CA:TWS wouldn't be as good.

It always annoys me whenever anyone says "but without" because that person is trying to take away something that is there in order to make their case. If you're going to take something away from one movie, you have to also be willing to take away from the other movie if you want to be fair.

edit: Also, I'd like to see this poll redone in 5 years. The hype for CA:TWS is still pretty fresh while the hype for TDK has died down quite a bit.

 

[Skrilla31]

There's a lot more that The Dark Knight has going for it than simply Ledger's performance. The character arcs, the parallels between Bruce and Harvey, the script that took the source material beyond the confines of the comic book and applied it to real world issues.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier did amazing, but IMO it's not nearly as iconic or having as significant an impact as The Dark Knight.

It wasn't as iconic because it's characters aren't as iconic. Seeing a movie like that with Batman and Joker was 70 years in the making. Even before the news of Ledger's death Cap 2 could never hope to compete with that.

It's the same reason why I'm still looking forward to BvS more than I am Cap 3 even though I enjoyed Cap 2 thoroughly and thought MOS was a steaming pile of dogs***. It's not because BvS is bound to be a better movie but because Batman and Superman mean a lot more to people than Captain America does. On those grounds alone it has more potential to be a classic and iconic movie.

 

[jmc]

Yea but is it because of how well the movie is made or because everyone is in love with Ledger's Joker. At the very least you could say the success of that movie - both critically and commercially - hinged on that performance.

The thing is I love TDK but that doesn't mean I am blind to it's faults. It is definitely iconic and transcendent but it's place in culture doesn't speak to the quality of the film. At least not for me.

As far as superhero movies go I don't believe we've seen the gold standard yet. We've yet to see a real PERFECT superhero movie. All of the best ones in the running have had some pretty major flaws.

The Joker played a part in getting people excited for the movie, but that guarantees you nothing more than a big opening weekend only. To say the movie hinges on that performance is kinda absurd because there's more going on to that story than that performance, and it showed with the incredible word of mouth.

 

[Skrilla31]

The Joker played a part in getting people excited for the movie, but that guarantees you nothing more than a big opening weekend only. To say the movie hinges on that performance is kinda absurd because there's more going on to that story than that performance, and it showed with the incredible word of mouth.

If you had everyone list their 5 most memorable scenes from the movie, how many of them do you think would include Joker.