TDK vs CA: TWS

TDK or TWS?

  • The Dark Knight

  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier


Results are only viewable after voting.
If you had everyone list their 5 most memorable scenes from the movie, how many of them do you think would include Joker.

If you had everyone list their 5 most memorable scenes from TWS, how many of them do you think would include a fighting scene?

That´s like saying "TWS is only good because it has good choreography"
 
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that because I wasn't.

People can like it for all the reasons they want but I believe it was the Joker character that elevated the film into the realm of pop culture phenomenon. Basically what I'm saying is that just because a movie is classic, doesn't mean it is a perfect movie.

TDK was good in a lot of ways but I also happen to believe it was bad in a few as well. So for those reasons I cannot consider it a "gold standard" for superhero movies as long as we're talking quality.

Exactly, the quotable lines were all from the Joker, the most memorable scenes were all from the joker. If you take the joker out of it, you have The Dark Knight Rises which was a pretty forgettable film.


Again, I don't dismiss the cultural impact of the film, but it was pretty much all from the Joker as you say.
 
I would actually agree with this. Cap is the star technically speaking, but the driving force is the fate of SHIELD and the only character with an arc in the whole damn movie is Nick Fury. He is the one who kills the bad guy and (along with BW) decides to let SHIELD's dirty laundry go public.

This is one of the more silly posts I've seen. To suggest that a guy who is barely in the film is the center driving force, because he's the one that killed the bad guy?
 
Exactly, the quotable lines were all from the Joker, the most memorable scenes were all from the joker. If you take the joker out of it, you have The Dark Knight Rises which was a pretty forgettable film.


Again, I don't dismiss the cultural impact of the film, but it was pretty much all from the Joker as you say.

I don´t understand the point of trying to evaluate how good a movie would be without a certain actor or character. The Joker is one of the most important and active characters of the movie, so it´s normal that the best and biggest moments are linked to him. But without a great story there would be nothing interesting for him to do. To say the only good thing about TDK is The Joker is a pretty ignorant statement. The movie works as a whole. Without one of its elements, it would not be the same.
 
I would actually agree with this. Cap is the star technically speaking, but the driving force is the fate of SHIELD and the only character with an arc in the whole damn movie is Nick Fury. He is the one who kills the bad guy and (along with BW) decides to let SHIELD's dirty laundry go public.

Wasn't stopping the insight helicarriers a much bigger deal than letting SHIELD's secrets go public and killing Pierce?
 
If you had everyone list their 5 most memorable scenes from the movie, how many of them do you think would include Joker.

I could ask the same thing of Jaws in regards to the shark couldn't I? I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to get at.
 
If you had everyone list their 5 most memorable scenes from TWS, how many of them do you think would include a fighting scene?

That´s like saying "TWS is only good because it has good choreography"

That's a horrible comparison. Compare the Joker scenario to Loki in Thor: TDW. Don't compare two completely differentiating aspects of films, it makes no sense and sense and proves nothing.

Peggy Reunion
Skinny Steve/ Bucky Flashback
Cap/Widow car scene
Cap/Widow at the mall
Fury car chase
Jenny Agutter kicking @$$
Lemurian Star showcase
Arnim Zola reveal
First Cap/Bucky fight
Falcon/Cap opening jog
Price of Freedom sequence
Fury round table "Looks like your giving the orders now, Cap"
Elevator fight

Those are my favorite scenes, 4 of them were fights.
 
Exactly, the quotable lines were all from the Joker, the most memorable scenes were all from the joker. If you take the joker out of it, you have The Dark Knight Rises which was a pretty forgettable film.


Again, I don't dismiss the cultural impact of the film, but it was pretty much all from the Joker as you say.

You take the Joker out and you have to re-write the movie from page one. What you're suggesting isn't a case of just a change of actor, you're talking about removing a character that the entire film is centred around. You don't even have TDKR if you do that because you'd have to start from scratch because now you have no threat.
 
I could ask the same thing of Jaws in regards to the shark couldn't I? I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to get at.

Yeah I don't get why this is a bad thing? Guess it's just attempts at undermining a film's strongest strength and using it against it.

Best scenes in Jaws don't include the shark, BTW.
 
Agreed. TWS is seeingly the best Marvel Studios film to date. It does so much well and was successful in what it tried to do. Definitely didn't feel pointless like Thor 2 did. Overall, it was an extremely well-made film and I enjoyed it very much.

But TDK is just on another level. It doesn't just succeed as a DC film or superhero story. It goes far beyond that. Everything from the performances, cinematography, pacing, story structure, and musical score were top notch. I definitely don't think TWS will be held in the same regard as TDK as time stretches on.

TDK succeeds because it's not a superhero film. Period.

That's why I consider Spidery-Man 2 the benchmark because it accomplished so much for a superhero film. The Dark Knight delivered the same things you'd get in any Part 2 sequel, but Spider-Man 2 broke the mold.
 
Yeah I don't get why this is a bad thing? Guess it's just attempts at undermining a film's strongest strength and using it against it.

Best scenes in Jaws don't include the shark, BTW.

It's not a bad thing. What some people are forgetting is that The Joker is suppose to be the centre of attention when he's around, it goes for just about every story he and Batman face off in. The Joker is always about upstaging Batman.
 
Exactly, the quotable lines were all from the Joker, the most memorable scenes were all from the joker.

I highly disagree. For example this scene is one of several examples of a scene that was memorable, with quotable dialogue, and didn't feature the Joker:

[YT]dJma8pVAvH4[/YT]
 
That's a horrible comparison. Compare the Joker scenario to Loki in Thor: TDW. Don't compare two completely differentiating aspects of films, it makes no sense and sense and proves nothing.

Peggy Reunion
Skinny Steve/ Bucky Flashback
Cap/Widow car scene
Cap/Widow at the mall
Fury car chase
Jenny Agutter kicking @$$
Lemurian Star showcase
Arnim Zola reveal
First Cap/Bucky fight
Falcon/Cap opening jog
Price of Freedom sequence
Fury round table "Looks like your giving the orders now, Cap"
Elevator fight

Those are my favorite scenes, 4 of them were fights.

TDK ending
Rachel´s death
Alfred´s speech about The Joker
First Batman appearence
Hong Kong scene
Two Face car scene
Coleman Reese scene
Dinner with Harvey
Batman with Maroni
Bruce and Rachel in his apartment
Bruce - Panic room sequence
Two boats scene
Two face and Gordon in the Hospital


See? I can also name several scenes from TDK that are great without having The Joker in it. And in this list i also have have my 2 favorite scenes. None of them have The Joker.
 
Last edited:
TDK ending
Rachel´s death
Alfred´s speech about The Joker
First Batman appearence
Hong Kong scene
Two Face car scene
Coleman Reese scene
Dinner with Harvey, where he says "You either die a hero..."
Batman with Maroni
Bruce and Rachel in his apartment
Bruce - Panic room sequence
Two boats scene


See? I can also name several scenes from TDK that are great without having The Joker in it. And in this list i also have have my 2 favorite scenes. None of them have The Joker.

I agree with your point about the Joker, but you can't compare what is essentially a feature of a film with a character. And I wasn't listing off scenes without fights, those were my favorite scenes from the movie..
 
I agree with your point about the Joker, but you can't compare what is essentially a feature of a film with a character. And I wasn't listing off scenes without fights, those were my favorite scenes from the movie..

And in that list i also have several of my favorite scenes.

All movies have one element that is much more memorable than the rest. With TWS happens the same thing. The only difference between TWS and TDK is that TWS lacks something that stands out as much as The Joker.

Is The Joker the most memorable thing about TDK? Yes, without a doubt. Is The Joker the only great thing about TDK? No. I find TDK to have an amazing story, to be a very deep movie and to have very good performances overall. We can´t forget about Harvey/Two-face, Gordon and Alfred, who are all played by great actors. Each one of those characters is very interesting.

And as someone already said, it´s pointless to evaluate the movie without The Joker. The movie doesn´t exist without that character, so we have no idea about how good it would have been.
 
Exactly, the quotable lines were all from the Joker, the most memorable scenes were all from the joker. If you take the joker out of it, you have The Dark Knight Rises which was a pretty forgettable film.


Again, I don't dismiss the cultural impact of the film, but it was pretty much all from the Joker as you say.

If dialogue is an issue then the Dark Knight is mediocre. Many of the so-called great lines were too precocious for the plot. In the end, the Joker was a terrorist who liked to jerk people around. That worked for many because people just want to believe in the Devil, believe there is pure evil that exists to terrorize us.
 
If dialogue is an issue then the Dark Knight is mediocre. Many of the so-called great lines were too precocious for the plot. In the end, the Joker was a terrorist who liked to jerk people around. That worked for many because people just want to believe in the Devil, believe there is pure evil that exists to terrorize us.

What on earth are you talking about? Where did you dig that up from? Show me some kind of proof that's why people liked it please. Seriously that is the most random thing I have ever heard.

People loved the Joker because he was a brilliant villain, played by an actor who gave an amazing performance. His dialogue, like the character, was excellent and memorable. Nothing to do with wanting to believe in the Devil lol.
 
What on earth are you talking about? Where did you dig that up from? Show me some kind of proof that's why people liked it please. Seriously that is the most random thing I have ever heard.

People loved the Joker because he was a brilliant villain, played by an actor who gave an amazing performance. His dialogue, like the character, was excellent and memorable. Nothing to do with wanting to believe in the Devil lol.

The only reason i liked the movie is because i want to believe in the Devil. Lol
 
TDK ending
Rachel´s death
Alfred´s speech about The Joker
First Batman appearence
Hong Kong scene
Two Face car scene
Coleman Reese scene
Dinner with Harvey
Batman with Maroni
Bruce and Rachel in his apartment
Bruce - Panic room sequence
Two boats scene
Two face and Gordon in the Hospital


See? I can also name several scenes from TDK that are great without having The Joker in it. And in this list i also have have my 2 favorite scenes. None of them have The Joker.

This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. I already mentioned Rachel's death scene was pretty underwhelming. First off the whole thing was a take off on the Green Goblin Gwen Stacey Death from the comics that maybe we'll get to see this year. Secondly, Maggie Gyllenhaal was horrible, so I didn't care that she died, Katie Holmes was worse, so I never cared for the character.

Coleman Reese, first I had to look it up to know who the hell coleman reese was, as soon as I did, that was one of the worst parts of the film for me. Guy finds out Batman's identity, he just happens to be a target, and Bruce Wayne just gets there in the nick of time to save his life. How many people work at Wayne Enterprises? And Coleman Reese is the onlyone to figure this out? This is as bad as TDKR's "only one man in the world can convert this device into a thermo-nuclear bomb"

Batman and Maroni - There's a reason Eric Roberts never gets roles anymore.

Bruce and Rachel = no chemistry

I could go on, but the only scene I enjoyed without the Joker was the ending, that was it.
 
TDK ending
Rachel´s death
Alfred´s speech about The Joker
First Batman appearence
Hong Kong scene
Two Face car scene
Coleman Reese scene
Dinner with Harvey
Batman with Maroni
Bruce and Rachel in his apartment
Bruce - Panic room sequence
Two boats scene
Two face and Gordon in the Hospital


See? I can also name several scenes from TDK that are great without having The Joker in it. And in this list i also have have my 2 favorite scenes. None of them have The Joker.

You've given a list that makes Raimi's Spider-Man 2 much better. :huh:

1. Spidey 2 Ending - the hero gets the girl while confirming his choice to be a superhero. The ideals are upheld. In the TDK ending - Batman gives up the cape and twists the truth of Harvey's death. The audience is taught that compromising the truth is important for security and freedom.

2. Mary Jane chooses the hero and the Peter gets the girl. In Rachel's death the love interest is lost, just like in other part 2 sequels i.e. Superman 2, Blade 2, X-Men 2, Batman Returns, Empire Strikes Back. This is clearly a trope that many sequels have repeated for dramatic reasons.

3. Alfred's speech about the Joker supports the belief that there is pure evil that's out to get us. Aunt May's speech to Peter about heroes was more inspiring.

4. First Batman scene. He captures Scarecrow, which is the only appearance of Cillian Murphy and it delivered some bad lines. Spider-Man 2 had an exciting re-introduction of Peter's life mixed with the humour of trying to hold a job.

5. Hong Kong scene. So what? I had more fun watching New Police Story.

6. Two-Face car scene. Baddies facing each other off. I was more impressed when Harry Osborn made a deal with Doc Ock to capture Spider-Man.

7. Coleman Reese scene. One office worker decides to keep mum after Bruce saves his life. That's pretty much the servant affirming his allegiance to his lord. It was far more inspiring to see the people on the train promise to keep Peter's identity secret after he saved all of them. Why wouldn't they? A kid gave everything he got to save their lives. Mary Jane, Harry Osborn, and Doc Ock learned his identity and they didn't blab about it.

8. Dinner with Harvey. More precocious dialogue between men who ended up compromising the truth. Peter's birthday party was between friends and family. When Harry asked him about Spider-Man it conveyed the guilt over keeping secrets from friends.

9. Batman with Maroni. Torture scene. Cliché.

10. Batman and Rachel in his apartment. And in Spider-Man 2 Peter was crushed when Gwen said she was marrying John Jameson, the American astronaut and national hero.

11.Batman - Panic room sequence. Another fight scene.

12. Two boats scene. There's a runaway train and flying metal debris in Spider-Man 2.

13. Two-Face and Gordon in the hospital. Peter had a heartfelt conversation with Doc Ock about dreams and the privilege of science. Spider-Man removed his mask to reconnect with Doc Ock's humanity and redeemed him. Supervillains are rarely redeemed in a part 2 film. Another benchmark of Spider-Man 2.
 
I highly disagree. For example this scene is one of several examples of a scene that was memorable, with quotable dialogue, and didn't feature the Joker:

[YT]dJma8pVAvH4[/YT]

I hated the two face design. Eckhart was great and was perhaps the 2nd best actor in the film, but the two face design was way out there for a movie that prided itself on being a 'real world" version of Batman.
 
I could ask the same thing of Jaws in regards to the shark couldn't I? I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to get at.

I think you know exactly what I'm getting at. You could choose to disagree but I still think you know what I'm getting at.

What I'm suggesting is that because of Ledger's iconic performance an otherwise mediocre movie becomes more tolerable. That the movie's lulls aren't as offensive because the scenes with Joker are all so classic.

Please understand that I'm not trying to s*** on TDK here. I f'n LOVE that f'n movie. As a Batman fan how could you not. But as a standalone MOVIE I don't think it's as deserving of it's reputation. It's obviously loved and it's obviously highly regarded but I just don't think it's all because they loved the MOVIE.

I've seen similar criticisms of Scarface. That Pacino elevated an otherwise mediocre film into a celebrated classic. I think Heath carried TDK in similar fashion. You can't talk about the best moments in the movie and NOT talk about Joker. It's not the story or the drama that pulls you in, it's the performance. The scenes in that movie without Joker in it all feel lifeless in comparison. The characters are all dry as hell and the story is a convoluted mess.
 
But that´s you. To me all those scenes were great. And i´m pretty sure i´m not the only one.
 
You've given a list that makes Raimi's Spider-Man 2 much better. :huh:

I gave a list of scenes that i love that don´t include The Joker. I´m not comparing the movie to Spider-Man 2, and i don´t understand why you´re doing it.

And i disagree with every point you made. To me TDK is better executed than SM2 on almost every level.
 

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