TDK vs CA: TWS

[Predator]

I think you know exactly what I'm getting at. You could choose to disagree but I still think you know what I'm getting at.

What I'm suggesting is that because of Ledger's iconic performance an otherwise mediocre movie becomes more tolerable. That the movie's lulls aren't as offensive because the scenes with Joker are all so classic.

"an otherwise movie" = a movie that never existed, therefore can´t be judged.

To consider TDK mediocre, i would also have to say the same about pretty much every SH movie.

 

[Skrilla31]

But that´s you. To me all those scenes were great. And i´m pretty sure i´m not the only one.

I'm sure you are right. And if you thought they were great that's all that should matter.

You have to be honest with yourself. I can't speak for you but I CAN speak for me. And for ME the best thing about that movie was The Joker. You could say all you want about everything else but I know that the movie becomes more watchable every time he's on screen and the moments in between all tend to lull.

 

[Predator]

I'm sure you are right. And if you thought they were great that's all that should matter.

You have to be honest with yourself. I can't speak for you but I CAN speak for me. And for ME the best thing about that movie was The Joker. You could say all you want about everything else but I know that the movie becomes more watchable every time he's on screen and the moments in between all tend to lull.

So, if i think The Joker is the best thing, i have to believe the rest is mediocre? Can´t i think that everything is amazing and The Joker is simply the most amazing thing?

Just for the record, the fight scenes are the most memorable thing about TWS to me. But i also enjoyed all the rest.

 

[Red Mask]

What on earth are you talking about? Where did you dig that up from? Show me some kind of proof that's why people liked it please. Seriously that is the most random thing I have ever heard.

People loved the Joker because he was a brilliant villain, played by an actor who gave an amazing performance. His dialogue, like the character, was excellent and memorable. Nothing to do with wanting to believe in the Devil lol.

That Joker just rehashed the characteristics of many Hollywood psychos but in the end he was just a terrorist. He jerked people around with his origins when it didn't matter anyway. His ultimate goal was simply to terrorize the people and destroy society. That's just window dressing for a bomber. They did the same thing with Bane in Dark Knight Rises. All that talk and he was just jerking people around so he could just kill them all. The audience bought into that because they don't want three-dimensional antagonists. They just want performance and vindication that some men are just plain evil. That's that Ledger's Joker really is. That's what the fear of the Devil is to many believers. It's an irrational belief that pure evil exists for its own sake.

 

[Skrilla31]

So, if i think The Joker is the best thing, i have to believe the rest is mediocre? Can´t i think that everything is amazing and The Joker is simply the most amazing thing?

You can think whatever you want lol. If you loved everything about TDK all power to you.

But even you just admitted that it wasn't the story or anything else that was your favorite thing about that movie. It was the Joker performance.

I bet you a lot of people who've seen that movie might tell you the same thing. That they too loved the performance more than the movie itself.

 

[Predator]

You can think whatever you want lol. If you loved everything about TDK all power to you.

But even you just admitted that it wasn't the story or anything else that was your favorite thing about that movie. It was the Joker performance.

I bet you a lot of people who've seen that movie might tell you the same thing. That they too loved the performance more than the movie itself.

The Joker is the most memorable thing about TDK. But i don´t judge things as separated elements. The story was pretty much what kept me interested in The Joker character. You can have a great character without a great story. And a good example of that is Batman 89. Great performance, great character, very memorable, but not many people walk around saying that movie is amazing.

 

[Red Mask]

I gave a list of scenes that i love that don´t include The Joker. I´m not comparing the movie to Spider-Man 2, and i don´t understand why you´re doing it.

And i disagree with every point you made. To me TDK is better executed than SM2 on almost every level.

It's to further support my earlier argument that Spider-Man 2 is the gold standard. You can disagree with it but I've listed my reasons.

 

[Predator]

It's to further support my earlier argument that Spider-Man 2 is the gold standard. You can disagree with it but I've listed my reasons.

I think the gold standard thing has more to do with the general perception that most people have about the movie. It´s the gold standard because it is widely considered the best CBM by the majority. It´s just that.

 

[jmc]

I think you know exactly what I'm getting at. You could choose to disagree but I still think you know what I'm getting at.

What I'm suggesting is that because of Ledger's iconic performance an otherwise mediocre movie becomes more tolerable. That the movie's lulls aren't as offensive because the scenes with Joker are all so classic.

Please understand that I'm not trying to s*** on TDK here. I f'n LOVE that f'n movie. As a Batman fan how could you not. But as a standalone MOVIE I don't think it's as deserving of it's reputation. It's obviously loved and it's obviously highly regarded but I just don't think it's all because they loved the MOVIE.

I've seen similar criticisms of Scarface. That Pacino elevated an otherwise mediocre film into a celebrated classic. I think Heath carried TDK in similar fashion. You can't talk about the best moments in the movie and NOT talk about Joker. It's not the story or the drama that pulls you in, it's the performance. The scenes in that movie without Joker in it all feel lifeless in comparison. The characters are all dry as hell and the story is a convoluted mess.

No, I don't know exactly what you're talking about. You're entitled to think of the film however you like, but you are trying to credit the success of the movie to one element. If it was just about Ledger the film wouldn't have made the impact it did, a film doesn't make a billion dollars on a single performance alone, it has to capture people on several levels to have that type of success. An emotional level, a visual level, a philosophical level, or a combination of things. He is a big part of that film, but he is not the only part of that film and not the only reason it hit the heights it did. Let's put it in perspective a bit, if the film was what you claim it to be then the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences wouldn't have changed its rules for Best Picture. But they did. Ultimately if the best moments are with The Joker then so what? The best parts of No Country for Old Men are with Anton Chigurh, the best parts of The Terminator are with the T-800, The best parts of Silence with the Lambs are with Hannibal Lector, the history of film is littered with characters that steal the show and provide the highlights. People can argue until they are blue in the face about 'if you take The Joker out the film has nothing' - the truth is you can't take The Joker out of that film otherwise the film collapses in on itself and you're left with starting from scratch.

 

[Red Mask]

I think the gold standard thing has more to do with the general perception about the movie. It´s the gold standard because it is widely considered the best CBM by the majority. It´s just that.

A lot of people love Pixar films and Star Wars. That doesn't make them the gold standard in their genres. This is pop culture.

 

[Predator]

A lot of people love Pixar films and Star Wars. That doesn't make them the gold standard in their genres. This is pop culture.

So, Spider-Man 2 is the gold standard because you simply enjoyed it more? I think the "Gold Standard" status goes beyond your personal opinion. You can´t change the fact that most people enjoyed TDK more than SM2. And if most people think that movie is the best, what are you gonna say? That they´re all wrong and you´re right? It´s all opinions. You´re free to like whatever you want.

 

[Red Mask]

So, Spider-Man 2 is the gold standard because you simply enjoyed it more? I think the "Gold Standard" status goes beyond your personal opinion. You can´t change the fact that most people enjoy TDK more than SM2. And if most people think that movie is the best, what are you gonna say? That they´re all wrong and you´re right? It´s all opinions. You´re free to like whatever you want.

I sure am, and people like Captain America have defended that right.

But I listed my reasons on certain points while you're just claiming demographics and a right to opinion.

 

[Predator]

I sure am, and people like Captain America have defended that right.

But I listed my reasons on certain points while you're just claiming demographics and a right to opinion.

Your reasons are your opinions. They´re not facts. They don´t have more value than anything anyone else says in this thread.

"I didn´t like this in TDK, but i liked that in SM2"

This is just an opinion. It means nothing for people who don´t agree with you. And the percentage of people who don´t agree with you is huge.

The fact that every movie gets compared to TDK and not to SM2 speaks for itself. You can´t determine what movie is the best, because that´s all subjective. But you can determine what movie was better received critically, and that was TDK.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I think you know exactly what I'm getting at. You could choose to disagree but I still think you know what I'm getting at.

What I'm suggesting is that because of Ledger's iconic performance an otherwise mediocre movie becomes more tolerable. That the movie's lulls aren't as offensive because the scenes with Joker are all so classic.

Please understand that I'm not trying to s*** on TDK here. I f'n LOVE that f'n movie. As a Batman fan how could you not. But as a standalone MOVIE I don't think it's as deserving of it's reputation. It's obviously loved and it's obviously highly regarded but I just don't think it's all because they loved the MOVIE.

I've seen similar criticisms of Scarface. That Pacino elevated an otherwise mediocre film into a celebrated classic. I think Heath carried TDK in similar fashion. You can't talk about the best moments in the movie and NOT talk about Joker. It's not the story or the drama that pulls you in, it's the performance. The scenes in that movie without Joker in it all feel lifeless in comparison. The characters are all dry as hell and the story is a convoluted mess.

It's merely "tolerable" but you love it.

If all the scenes without Joker in them felt lifeless to most people, the movie wouldn't be praised as much. There were a lot of intriguing things in the movie like the corruption in Gotham (especially among the GPD), Harvey Dent, Coleman Reese trying to blackmail Batman through Fox, etc.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

That Joker just rehashed the characteristics of many Hollywood psychos but in the end he was just a terrorist. He jerked people around with his origins when it didn't matter anyway. His ultimate goal was simply to terrorize the people and destroy society. That's just window dressing for a bomber. They did the same thing with Bane in Dark Knight Rises. All that talk and he was just jerking people around so he could just kill them all. The audience bought into that because they don't want three-dimensional antagonists. They just want performance and vindication that some men are just plain evil. That's that Ledger's Joker really is. That's what the fear of the Devil is to many believers. It's an irrational belief that pure evil exists for its own sake.

1. Bane was not evil for the sake of being evil. He was going to sacrifice himself in that bomb for the League of Shadows.
2. Then why do people like villains like Magneto? Why is Doctor Ock from Spidey 2 praised? Why do most of Spidey villains have a change of heart? Why does the RS from TFA not get as much praise as the Joker for being evil for no reason?

 

[Victarion]

Bane...had a thing against the rich and powerful. Executed a plan that was Ra's plan from BB on a greater scale. Believed in the innocence of a child. Enough to protect her at great risk to his own person. Also the embodiment of what Bruce could've become if he clung to his Batman persona and the League's philosophy. Very two-dimensional mustache twirler.

TDK got President Obama elected. What has CA:TWS done?

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Bane...had a thing against the rich and powerful. Executed a plan that was Ra's plan from BB on a greater scale. Believed in the innocence of a child. Enough to protect her at great risk to his own person. Also the embodiment of what Bruce could've become if he clung to his Batman persona and the League's philosophy. Very two-dimensional mustache twirler.

TDK got President Obama elected. What has CA:TWS done?

Ahhh that thread.

 

[The Joker]

That Joker just rehashed the characteristics of many Hollywood psychos but in the end he was just a terrorist.

How many movie terrorists have you seen try to drive people crazy to prove a point (like comic book Joker did), is obsessed with a guy dressed as a bat, burns a big pile of money to send a message etc?

He jerked people around with his origins when it didn't matter anyway.

What do you mean it didn't matter? It was his way of terrorizing them by freaking them out with some disturbing story about he got his scars.

His ultimate goal was simply to terrorize the people and destroy society. That's just window dressing for a bomber.

Wrong. He didn't bomb anything just for the sake of it. Everything he did was a means to an end. It wasn't window dressing. It was the whole basis for the character. Ledger's Joker was deeply rooted in the comic book character: http://jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

They did the same thing with Bane in Dark Knight Rises. All that talk and he was just jerking people around so he could just kill them all.

Bane hated the rich, and wanted to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny as the new leader of the League of Shadows. If he wanted to just kill everyone he would have just done it.

The audience bought into that because they don't want three-dimensional antagonists. They just want performance and vindication that some men are just plain evil. That's that Ledger's Joker really is. That's what the fear of the Devil is to many believers. It's an irrational belief that pure evil exists for its own sake.

Yeah you said that already, and I'm still waiting to see you show a shred of proof for this absurd hearsay.

 

[Naked Shia]

I have to say this thread is simply incredible.

 

[DA_Champion]

What happens to The Avengers if you just remove all the scenes with Loki in them without replacing them with something else?

 

[DA_Champion]

Exactly, the quotable lines were all from the Joker

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

 

[Naked Shia]

yeah, because quotable lines are what make a good movie, not an engaging story with great characters.

 

[BlackFox]

Exactly, the quotable lines were all from the Joker, the most memorable scenes were all from the joker.


Again, I don't dismiss the cultural impact of the film, but it was pretty much all from the Joker as you say.

You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

"Some men just want to watch the world burn"

 

[BlackFox]

yeah, because quotable lines are what make a good movie, not an engaging story with great characters.

It helps if you have both though.

 

[DA_Champion]

yeah, because quotable lines are what make a good movie, not an engaging story with great characters.

Don't be a knob. We've discussed the engaging story and great characters in other posts in this thread and in other threads. In those particular posts we were discussing quotes, which is legitimate and justified.