TDK vs CA: TWS

[Ms. Marvel]

True. But right now, if I started a thread about "Why Captain America: The Winter Soldier" is great. Most of the replies would be in agreement or be positive about the movie.

If I went to the Spidey boards and started a "Why Spider-Man 2 is great" thread in the right sub forum, it would be considered akin to trolling to many users and a huge debate would ensue. Fans were not that divided in 2004. Time changes that.

That's true, but even now if you started a thread saying "Why TDK is great" although many people would agree you would see a lot of "only because of Joker" comments that we are seeing in this thread. Fans change their minds and it happens to every CBM, even TDK (just to a lesser extent).

 

[Predator]

You totally missed the point. Yes I know they time actor's screen presence. My point was, do you think the general audience goer says, "oh I can't love him the most because he doesn't have the most screen time". A general viewer doesn't keep track of how much screen time a character has, they are more concerned with impact which the Joker owned that film.
.

The general viewer rarely remembers much about a movie at all. specially the details of the story. But there´s always one thing that stands out more than the rest, and in the case of TDK is The Joker. In the case of IM is probably RDJ´s performance. It´s certainly not the "fascinating" story.

I think everyone agrees that The Joker is the most memorable thing about TDK. But it seems some people are trying to imply that he is the only thing that´s good about the movie and everything else is "average". You might even think that everything else about TDK is average. But if you think that about this movie, i don´t know why wouldn´t you think the same about any other SH movie. Just out of the top of my head, i´m really not seeing any other SH movie with a much better plot and story than TDK. Sorry. Not Iron Man, not The Avengers, not Batman Begins, not Captain America, not Spider-Man 2. If TDK is mediocre, like some have said, than everything else is mediocre too, or worse.

 

[DACrowe]

That's true, but even now if you started a thread saying "Why TDK is great" although many people would agree you would see a lot of "only because of Joker" comments that we are seeing in this thread. Fans change their minds and it happens to every CBM, even TDK (just to a lesser extent).

That is true. It happens to The Dark Knight like the rest of them. Fans are fickle.

Still, they also love versus things. As we can see here, fans cannot just like two things: one has to be dragged down. So in 2008 it was Iron Man vs. The Dark Knight. But the funny thing is by 2012 it was The Avengers vs. The Dark Knight. And now in 2014, it is still The Dark Knight that is being compared to the new "best ever" superhero movie, Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

And I have a sneaking hunch that when Avengers 2 comes out, the thread of comparison will again be The Dark Knight. It does not diminish as the yardstick.

 

[Tony Stark]

That is true. It happens to The Dark Knight like the rest of them. Fans are fickle.

Still, they also love versus things. As we can see here, fans cannot just like two things: one has to be dragged down. So in 2008 it was Iron Man vs. The Dark Knight. But the funny thing is by 2012 it was The Avengers vs. The Dark Knight. And now in 2014, it is still The Dark Knight that is being compared to the new "best ever" superhero movie, Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

And I have a sneaking hunch that when Avengers 2 comes out, the thread of comparison will again be The Dark Knight. It does not diminish as the yardstick.

Actually 2012 people were talking Avengers vs TDKR, especially after Avengers crushed the records. People were saying that TDKR was the hands on favorite for best picture, people were saying that it would be the one to break 200M, numerous people were saying that Avengers wouldn't break 1 billion (800M was the consensus from the anti -MCU crowd) TDKR turns out to be a very average superhero film that is quite honestly completely forgettable.

TDK owned 2008, but Avengers owned 2012, and both had a huge cultural impact. The fact that many of you belittle that again shows how infuriating it can be having these discussions.

I actually said early on in this thread that TDK had a cultural impact that TWS would not, and would likely be viewed as better. I went and voted for TWS after the Nolanites started getting insulting to people who liked TWS better.

For the record TDK never came up until a Nolanite brought it up. The person got banned shortly after, but that started the ball rolling.

And to be clear I make a distinction between Nolanites and people who like TDK (which I like TDK).

 

[Victarion]

Actually 2012 people were talking Avengers vs TDKR, especially after Avengers crushed the records. People were saying that TDKR was the hands on favorite for best picture, people were saying that it would be the one to break 200M, numerous people were saying that Avengers wouldn't break 1 billion (800M was the consensus from the anti -MCU crowd) TDKR turns out to be a very average superhero film that is quite honestly completely forgettable.

TDK owned 2008, but Avengers owned 2012, and both had a huge cultural impact. The fact that many of you belittle that again shows how infuriating it can be having these discussions.

I actually said early on in this thread that TDK had a cultural impact that TWS would not, and would likely be viewed as better. I went and voted for TWS after the Nolanites started getting insulting to people who liked TWS better.

For the record TDK never came up until a Nolanite brought it up. The person got banned shortly after, but that started the ball rolling.

And to be clear I make a distinction between Nolanites and people who like TDK (which I like TDK).

To be fair, it is a bit like academia. You can't go into a course unprepared and expect to grasp the material. Similarly, you can't go into a film with the mindset that you're getting another light and breezy film of the mustachio-twirling madman and the snarky hero and expect to understand the intricacies of a Dickensian epic.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Actually 2012 people were talking Avengers vs TDKR, especially after Avengers crushed the records. People were saying that TDKR was the hands on favorite for best picture, people were saying that it would be the one to break 200M, numerous people were saying that Avengers wouldn't break 1 billion (800M was the consensus from the anti -MCU crowd) TDKR turns out to be a very average superhero film that is quite honestly completely forgettable.

TDK owned 2008, but Avengers owned 2012, and both had a huge cultural impact. The fact that many of you belittle that again shows how infuriating it can be having these discussions.

I actually said early on in this thread that TDK had a cultural impact that TWS would not, and would likely be viewed as better. I went and voted for TWS after the Nolanites started getting insulting to people who liked TWS better.

For the record TDK never came up until a Nolanite brought it up. The person got banned shortly after, but that started the ball rolling.

And to be clear I make a distinction between Nolanites and people who like TDK (which I like TDK).

TWS has no better WOM than TDKR got and will not necessarily be more "memorable" than TDKR. It's average in your point of view but seen by a lot of people as one of the best CBMs around. Just not to the same extent as TDK.

Your own feelings about the movie are not consensus.

 

[DACrowe]

Actually 2012 people were talking Avengers vs TDKR, especially after Avengers crushed the records. People were saying that TDKR was the hands on favorite for best picture, people were saying that it would be the one to break 200M, numerous people were saying that Avengers wouldn't break 1 billion (800M was the consensus from the anti -MCU crowd) TDKR turns out to be a very average superhero film that is quite honestly completely forgettable.

TDK owned 2008, but Avengers owned 2012, and both had a huge cultural impact. The fact that many of you belittle that again shows how infuriating it can be having these discussions.

I actually said early on in this thread that TDK had a cultural impact that TWS would not, and would likely be viewed as better. I went and voted for TWS after the Nolanites started getting insulting to people who liked TWS better.

For the record TDK never came up until a Nolanite brought it up. The person got banned shortly after, but that started the ball rolling.

And to be clear I make a distinction between Nolanites and people who like TDK (which I like TDK).

ahem: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=463725

Granted that was in 2013, but the point is still valid (I'm sure there was a 2012 version at some point). It always comes back down to TDK. Why is it that this is the one that six years on people must immediately compare their new favorite to?

As for Rises, that is another discussion. I personally think Rises, while messy in places, is still an amazing work of film craft with some great performances and the most ambitious story ever told in a superhero movie. TDK is better. I prefer Rises to Avengers though. It for one thing is rewatchable. But that is another thread, so I will leave it there.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I loved Cap 2. Easily the best MCU film, and probably on par with Batman Begins. But TDK is on a whole other level from every other superhero film ever made.

 

[Tony Stark]

ahem: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=463725

Granted that was in 2013, but the point is still valid (I'm sure there was a 2012 version at some point). It always comes back down to TDK. Why is it that this is the one that six years on people must immediately compare their new favorite to?

As for Rises, that is another discussion. I personally think Rises, while messy in places, is still an amazing work of film craft with some great performances and the most ambitious story ever told in a superhero movie. TDK is better. I prefer Rises to Avengers though. It for one thing is rewatchable. But that is another thread, so I will leave it there.

=fail

The comparison everyone was making in 2012 was Avengers vs TDKR and everyone said TDKR was going to wipe the floor with Avengers. I cut TDKR some slack because of the tragedy, but as far as the film....not so much.

As far as which one is better that's just a pissing contest that fanboys go back and forth. As I said, I can't stand it when the few come in here as if they're some sort of intellectual superior and act like everything else is dog crap.

Star Wars isn't nearly on a deep level like TDKR was, but do you want to try and go into a debate on those two movies?

 

[Tony Stark]

TWS has no better WOM than TDKR got and will not necessarily be more "memorable" than TDKR. It's average in your point of view but seen by a lot of people as one of the best CBMs around. Just not to the same extent as TDK.

Your own feelings about the movie are not consensus.

The first part of that, I disagree with, the second part only time will tell. TWS has ALOT better WOM than TDKR. While no one likes everything, it's liked by most people and it's ranked in the top 2 or 3 of all Marvel Studios films, if not all Marvel films period. TDKR, not so much.

Never said my feelings were consensus. In fact I said that TWS lacked the cultural impact that TDK has, only Avengers is comparable on that level and Spider-man 1.

I voted for TWS when certain people started belittling people who liked TWS better. And I should point out that the vast majority who supported TDK over TWS did so respectfully (no problem there). Unfortunately a select few had to spoil it for others.

 

[Spider-Fan]

ahem: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=463725

Granted that was in 2013, but the point is still valid (I'm sure there was a 2012 version at some point). It always comes back down to TDK. Why is it that this is the one that six years on people must immediately compare their new favorite to?

As for Rises, that is another discussion. I personally think Rises, while messy in places, is still an amazing work of film craft with some great performances and the most ambitious story ever told in a superhero movie. TDK is better. I prefer Rises to Avengers though. It for one thing is rewatchable. But that is another thread, so I will leave it there.

I think in this case, we have mostly acknowledged that Avengers won the battle against TDKR, so everyone moved on to the king of 2012 vs the king of 2008. Both of which are now regarded as 2 of the better comic book films made. Avengers is getting this same treatment in Marvel boards. We already saw one pop up in the Cap board, and likely Avengers will be the MCU benchmark (unless AoU surpasses it) much like TDK is a yard stick as well.

Can't we have 2 milestone/yardstick movies? Not just 1?

 

[jmc]

Winter Soldier is certainly a milestone in Marvel movies in that's it's the first time they made a film geared more towards adults. The question I have going forward is that maturity shift going to continue? Prior to WS they've been happily playing in this middle ground, please everyone area.

 

[random_havoc]

TDK is overrated. Don't get me wrong, great movie, but there are a number of flaws in it that many people seem to ignore.

as far as pure entertainment WS beats it hands down for me.

 

[Predator]

The first part of that, I disagree with, the second part only time will tell. TWS has ALOT better WOM than TDKR. While no one likes everything, it's liked by most people and it's ranked in the top 2 or 3 of all Marvel Studios films, if not all Marvel films period. TDKR, not so much.

We don´t have any proof of that. I don´t see TWS as being critically more successful than TDKR. At least i have yet to see any evidence of that. At very least they´re on the same level. But even on RT and IMDB TDKR has a better average rating. So, to say TWS, unlike TDKR, is liked by most people, doesn´t seem very fair to me.

And to be honest with you, i don´t know absolutely anyone in my personal life who thought TWS was great. It didn´t impress anyone i know. From my social circle, i´m the one who liked it more. Everyone else thought it was average and a couple of guys i know simply didn´t like it. So, TWS having better WOM might be your experience, but not mine.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I think TWS (in terms of WOM) is more on the level of IM, BB, TDKR, XFC, etc. Which are seen as great CBMs for the most part.

 

[DACrowe]

=fail

The comparison everyone was making in 2012 was Avengers vs TDKR and everyone said TDKR was going to wipe the floor with Avengers. I cut TDKR some slack because of the tragedy, but as far as the film....not so much.

As far as which one is better that's just a pissing contest that fanboys go back and forth. As I said, I can't stand it when the few come in here as if they're some sort of intellectual superior and act like everything else is dog crap.

Star Wars isn't nearly on a deep level like TDKR was, but do you want to try and go into a debate on those two movies?

You are dancing around my point. The Dark Knight is still the gold standard that Avengers, The Winter Soldier, and sure enough Avengers: Age of Ultron will be compared to. And it actually proves the point better that this particular thread rose up in 2013. Because by that point TDK is five years old (now going on six). Yet we are still having this exact same conversation every time a new movie comes out. They are also comparing a key scene in TASM2 to TDK in the Spidey forum. There is a reason it is the go-to movie.

The first part of that, I disagree with, the second part only time will tell. TWS has ALOT better WOM than TDKR. While no one likes everything, it's liked by most people and it's ranked in the top 2 or 3 of all Marvel Studios films, if not all Marvel films period. TDKR, not so much.

Of course TDKR isn't considered the best MCU movie when it isn't one.

Seriously, I would not say that TWS' WOM is a landslide better. It is one percentage point (one) above TDKR on Rotten Tomatoes. And while popularity does not equate quality, it surely won't ever cross $1 billion like TDKR did...without 3D surcharges.

Not saying this should really effect your opinion or anyone else's. I too am just making a point about fanboy internet revisionism, which would lead people to believe that Rises was treated as a disappointment beyond comic book forums.

 

[jmc]

Most people outside these forums walls seemed to love Rises, even someone like me who doesn't care much for the film knows the divide is within the fan base not the general audiences.

 

[Tony Stark]

We don´t have any proof of that. I don´t see TWS as being critically more successful than TDKR. At least i have yet to see any evidence of that. At very least they´re on the same level. But even on RT and IMDB TDKR has a better average rating. So, to say TWS, unlike TDKR, is liked by most people, doesn´t seem very fair to me.

And to be honest with you, i don´t know absolutely anyone in my personal life who thought TWS was great. It didn´t impress anyone i know. From my social circle, i´m the one who liked it more. Everyone else thought it was average and a couple of guys i know simply didn´t like it. So, TWS having better WOM might be your experience, but not mine.

I'm saying that TDKR is viewed by most as not as good as TDK and by a great many disappointing. You only need to parse through the forums to figure that out.

The personal anecdotes don't hold water. What does hold water is that the film has had very mild drop offs in audience since it was released. That's how you measure word of mouth.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I liked TWS more though it had it's flaws. TDK's atmosphere was far superior though. I just found TWS more entertaining overall.

 

[Tony Stark]

You are dancing around my point. The Dark Knight is still the gold standard that Avengers, The Winter Soldier, and sure enough Avengers: Age of Ultron will be compared to. And it actually proves the point better that this particular thread rose up in 2013. Because by that point TDK is five years old (now going on six). Yet we are still having this exact same conversation every time a new movie comes out. They are also comparing a key scene in TASM2 to TDK in the Spidey forum. There is a reason it is the go-to movie.

You need to go back and read my other posts, because you're the one dancing around the point. No one was talking about TDK in the Cap forums, until a Nolanite who got himself banned brought it up. That's usually how I see those conversations go.

As matter of fact, I remember right after Spider-man 2 was released and people were praising it, someone came onto the Spidey boards and said "it's the best film for now until Batman Begins comes out next year and wipes the floor, blah, blah, blah" That was literally what happens, I'll have to see if the post is still up, I don't know how far back they archive the site.

Oh and BTW, that "key scene" in TASM2 happened to be ripped off in TDK not the other way around. Because that "key scene" was written almost 40 years ago by Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. in the comics. And for the record, I don't mind that TDK ripped it off. However I do mind when Mark Webb tries to faithfully recreate a key defining moment in the Spider-man comics that was ranked as one of the best stories in the history of comics, and suggest that Christopher Nolan was the genius behind it.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

That scene in TDK was nothing like the Spider-Man scene aside from [BLACKOUT] having the same outcome. [/BLACKOUT]

 

[DACrowe]

You need to go back and read my other posts, because you're the one dancing around the point. No one was talking about TDK in the Cap forums, until a Nolanite who got himself banned brought it up. That's usually how I see those conversations go.

I am talking about this thread here and now. This conversation we are having, not the one that happened in the Cap forum.

As matter of fact, I remember right after Spider-man 2 was released and people were praising it, someone came onto the Spidey boards and said "it's the best film for now until Batman Begins comes out next year and wipes the floor, blah, blah, blah" That was literally what happens, I'll have to see if the post is still up, I don't know how far back they archive the site.

I don't recall that at all. But if it makes you judge me as less of a "Nolanite," I preferred Spider-Man 2 to Batman Begins. I even got flamed by Batman fans in 2005 for saying that, as I recall.

Oh and BTW, that "key scene" in TASM2 happened to be ripped off in TDK not the other way around. Because that "key scene" was written almost 40 years ago by Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. in the comics. And for the record, I don't mind that TDK ripped it off. However I do mind when Mark Webb tries to faithfully recreate a key defining moment in the Spider-man comics that was ranked as one of the best stories in the history of comics, and suggest that Christopher Nolan was the genius behind it.

It was actually written by Gerry Conway and the pencils were done by Gil Kane. Stan Lee hated it. He wanted Gwen out because (in the comics), MJ had become the stronger character, but he was furious they killed Ms. Stacy off.

That aside, I thought the execution of the scene was....okay. The context to it with the villain randomly showing up and it just happening though felt tonally awkward. In that sense, I thought TDK actually did do it better, because it felt unexpected and shook the movie to its core. With that said, I much, much prefer Stone and her performance to any version of Dawes, for what it is worth.

 

[Bren]

My first viewing of TDK was enjoyable, it was great but I even enjoyed B89 more. TWS I found even more fun to watch than both, and not being any type of critic, I rate the more fun-to-watch film a better film to me.

 

[Tony Stark]

I am talking about this thread here and now. This conversation we are having, not the one that happened in the Cap forum.

That conversation spawned this thread, so it's relevant.

I don't recall that at all. But if it makes you judge me as less of a "Nolanite," I preferred Spider-Man 2 to Batman Begins. I even got flamed by Batman fans in 2005 for saying that, as I recall.

I don't think you are a Noalinte, I do think you've been condescending of people who like TWS better. What's laughable if you read the forum, I said that TDK will be viewed as the better film. I only voted for TWS when people started getting nasty, with a few people getting banned.

It was actually written by Gerry Conway and the pencils were done by Gil Kane. Stan Lee hated it. He wanted Gwen out because (in the comics), MJ had become the stronger character, but he was furious they killed Ms. Stacy off.

You're right Conway did write that, I'd forgotten he'd taken over by then.

However you're wrong about Gil Kane. A penciler is someone who traces the artwork of another artist. This was how it was done back in the day, but that is John Romita Sr.'s artwork. It was simply more efficient to do the work that way as Romita was writing several books, but it is John Romita's art work:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Romita,_Sr.#Joining_Marvel_Comics

These steps at reducing Romita's Spider-Man workload had mixed results, Romita recalled in 2001, saying, "Stan was always trying to speed me up. He had Don Heck pencil over my breakdowns for a while. ... Then, when Don had finished the pencils, [Lee would] call me in to fix up anything ... that he didn't like. Even after it was inked, he'd have me changing what the inker had done. I told him, 'This was supposed to save me time, but it isn't!' "

That aside, I thought the execution of the scene was....okay. The context to it with the villain randomly showing up and it just happening though felt tonally awkward. In that sense, I thought TDK actually did do it better, because it felt unexpected and shook the movie to its core. With that said, I much, much prefer Stone and her performance to any version of Dawes, for what it is worth.

I haven't seen the film yet so I can't comment. As I said numerous times the scene was weak to me in TDK because as you mentioned Rachel Dawes is a weak character, easily the weakest in any of the Dark Knight films. In fact that is one of the big downfalls to the Nolan Batman films in that the female characters are very weak. He almost had it with Catwoman, but it pales in comparison to the Michelle Pfeiffer version.

 

[DACrowe]

Condescending? Never.

I try not to be.

My point remains that The Dark Knight is still the one fans are more likely to compare a new movie to. I think there is something implicit in that.

Thanks for the correction on Romita (but then this is after Stan quit writing ASM, but it's probably the same case).

As for Dawes, she is a weak character--though I actually think Nolan's Catwoman is fantastic--but her death scene worked because you don't see it coming. You think he is about to reach her in time and instead it is Harvey Dent. There is a genuine moment of awkward confusion for all three characters, as well as the audience, and before you can adjust to what's happened she is ripped away from the audience in a violent way that has no teeth gnashing or standing over her dead body and weeping. Instead it is scorched earth shot in a way that is reminiscent of the WTC ground zero and Batman standing alone in the rubble while Joker is free to howl into the dawn from that cop car.

It is all told in a very cold, cruel way that is very painful. The comparative scene in question is for a more likable character, but the actual execution is very average. The way it happens makes it obvious that it is coming (so does the story with her "moving to London" and Peter following her) and it just kind of happens by accident. The Green Goblin didn't even mean for it to happen and he has been the Goblin for about 30 seconds.

The one thing it has going for it is Emma Stone being so good.