TDK vs CA: TWS

[DA_Champion]

TDK got President Obama elected. What has CA:TWS done?

Can someone explain the joke?

 

[Naked Shia]

Don't be a knob. We've discussed the engaging story and great characters in other posts in this thread and in other threads. In those particular posts we were discussing quotes, which is legitimate and justified.

I wasn't answering to you but to Tony Stark who said all the quotable lines were from the Joker. Which, imo, is certainly not enough to say the movie is mediocre without the Joker.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Can someone explain the joke?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=314264

 

[DA_Champion]

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=314264

LOL that's awful !

 

[Skrilla31]

It's merely "tolerable" but you love it.

If all the scenes without Joker in them felt lifeless to most people, the movie wouldn't be praised as much. There were a lot of intriguing things in the movie like the corruption in Gotham (especially among the GPD), Harvey Dent, Coleman Reese trying to blackmail Batman through Fox, etc.

It's a Batman movie. I'm course I'm going to love it. Would you NOT love your one of your own kids if he turned out to be a special needs patient?

Lol if course I love TDK. It's still an awesome Batman movie. Just because I think it has it's fair share of flaws doesn't stop me from loving it.

I don't wanna just say the scenes without Joker felt LIFELESS but the movie does tend to drag in a lot of parts because of how boring these characters all are. I know Nolan went for a more deeper approach and didn't just set out to make a popcorn movie for people with A.D.D. but man these characters have NO life in them! Everyone is so damn stiff. The MOVIE even feels stiff sometimes.

Until Joker comes in.

You can't help but feel the energy whenever that character is on screen. He's the reason you're glued to the screen. It's not Bruce, it's not Batman, it's not Gordon, it's not Harvey, it's not Rachel, it's not Alfred. TDK is solely a one man act. And I'm sure there's some of you out there who can't wait to get on your keyboards and tell me just how wrong I am and how guys like Oldman and Bale gave "brilliant" performances but quite frankly I just don't care. Believe whatever you want. For me there's one character in that movie worth watching it for and that's Joker. Everyone else just drones on and spits out plot.

The Joker is an extravagant character by nature but I don't recall ever being so much more interested in him than I was Batman in any of their classic confrontations. I don't ever recall reading a Batman comic when I was a kid or watching a cartoon and thinking, "Okay enough of this Bat guy. Give me more Joker".

And that's pretty much how I feel from beginning to end as I'm watching TDK.

 

[Predator]

I

You can't help but feel the energy whenever that character is on screen. He's the reason you're glued to the screen. It's not Bruce, it's not Batman, it's not Gordon, it's not Harvey, it's not Rachel, it's not Alfred. TDK is solely a one man act. And I'm sure there's some of you out there who can't wait to get on your keyboards and tell me just how wrong I am and how guys like Oldman and Bale gave "brilliant" performances but quite frankly I just don't care. Believe whatever you want. For me there's one character in that movie worth watching it for and that's Joker. Everyone else just drones on and spits out plot.

For someone who doesn´t care, you certainly seem to put a lot of effort in your posts.

I disagree with everything you said. I think the movie is fantastic as a whole and everything about it is very interesting.

Ups...you don´t care about what other people think...sorry for my opinion.

 

[Skrilla31]

For someone who doesn´t care, you certainly seem to put a lot of effort in your posts.

I disagree with everything you said. I think the movie is fantastic as a whole and everything about it is very interesting.

Ups...you don´t care about what other people think...sorry for my opinion.

I don't care what you think as it pertains to my opinion. You can love the movie all you want. More power to you. I wish I loved it like you do as well.

I'm saying for ME... it wasn't as good.

 

[Predator]

I don't care what you think as it pertains to my opinion. You can love the movie all you want. More power to you. I wish I loved it like you do as well.

I'm saying for ME... it wasn't as good.

Ok. But you hope that other people care about what you think, and that´s why you´re posting in this thread and repeating yourself over and over again. That´s interesting.

 

[Skrilla31]

Interesting indeed.

Perhaps some people just want to watch the forums burn.

 

[The Joker]

It's a Batman movie. I'm course I'm going to love it. Would you NOT love your one of your own kids if he turned out to be a special needs patient?

Schumacher's Batman movies are still Batman and they don't get much love. Just because it's Batman you're not obligated to like it.

Given how you've just explained you "love" TDK because of the Joker, I can't imagine what kind of love that is. I can't imagine loving a movie because of one supporting character who has less screen time than three other main characters (Batman/Dent/Gordon).

I don't wanna just say the scenes without Joker felt LIFELESS but the movie does tend to drag in a lot of parts because of how boring these characters all are. I know Nolan went for a more deeper approach and didn't just set out to make a popcorn movie for people with A.D.D. but man these characters have NO life in them! Everyone is so damn stiff. The MOVIE even feels stiff sometimes.

I couldn't disagree more. This was the one that had the most life and energy. The cast were on the top of their game, including the very underrated Bale. Even Rachel in her recasting is more full of life. Compare her first scene in TDK where she's on form in the courtroom chastising Harvey for being late to Maroni's trial, to her sleepy delivery about powdered milk in Wayne Manor in Begins.

Eckhart was sheer brilliance as Dent. A soulful performance. Another underrated performer. TDK is by FAR Oldman's best performance as Gordon. He was terrific. I pity who ever has to replace him in the next Batman franchise. Caine and Freeman were both on top form, too, each having their share of memorable scenes like how Lucius brilliantly handles Reese's blackmail attempt.

You can't help but feel the energy whenever that character is on screen. He's the reason you're glued to the screen. It's not Bruce, it's not Batman, it's not Gordon, it's not Harvey, it's not Rachel, it's not Alfred. TDK is solely a one man act. And I'm sure there's some of you out there who can't wait to get on your keyboards and tell me just how wrong I am and how guys like Oldman and Bale gave "brilliant" performances but quite frankly I just don't care. Believe whatever you want. For me there's one character in that movie worth watching it for and that's Joker. Everyone else just drones on and spits out plot.

That may be how it was for you, and that's unfortunate for you, but Ledger is far from being the only cast member that holds this fine movie up to the high standard it's held at. It's very much a team effort.

Joker may be the reason you're glued to the screen, but he's not for me and many others, especially if the reviews and feedback the movie got are anything to go by. Which is only natural as no movie could possibly be as popular and acclaimed as TDK is because of one supporting character.

 

[Predator]

Interesting indeed.

Perhaps some people just want to watch the forums burn.

That´s a fascinating point of view.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

It's a Batman movie. I'm course I'm going to love it. Would you NOT love your one of your own kids if he turned out to be a special needs patient?

That analogy.

TDK is a special needs child?

 

[Skrilla31]

Schumacher's Batman movies are still Batman and they don't get much love. Just because it's Batman you're not obligated to like it.

Given how you've just explained you "love" TDK because of the Joker, I can't imagine what kind of love that is. I can't imagine loving a movie because of one supporting character who has less screen time than three other main characters (Batman/Dent/Gordon).

There's more to love about TDK than just the Joker. It's still a badass movie in spite of it's flaws and if nothing else it still remains an amazingly ambitious effort. It's pretty impossible to not love and appreciate it because there are moments in the film that are undeniably spellbinding if you're a life long Bat-fan.

The Schumacher ones not so much.

 

[Tony Stark]

Given how you've just explained you "love" TDK because of the Joker, I can't imagine what kind of love that is. I can't imagine loving a movie because of one supporting character who has less screen time than three other main characters (Batman/Dent/Gordon).

Do you think people sit down with a stopwatch and a notepad and mark down how much screen time each character gets. Even when the joker isn't on screen his presence is felt. He is the movie, without him there is no movie. The setup from Batman Begins, set the ball in motion, and is one of the big reasons the third film was a letdown to many.

I can name plenty of examples of characters who steal the screen no matter how much screen time they have. Take "A Few Good Men" with Nicholson's Col. Nathan Jessup. He has much less screen time than the other actors, but he absolutely makes that movie.

Again, I don't have a problem with your opinion or your liking the rest of the film, but when you and others start telling people their wrong, or "I can't imagine what kind of love that is" you are belittling other peoples opinion. Yet you talk to regular people on the street and you say, "I loved the Dark Knight, the Joker was awesome!" Do you think any of them would say "what are you talking about, he wasn't on screen as much as the others!"

 

[Steamteck]

I really really hated TDK. It was by far my least favorite CBM everyone liked until IM3 so Cap easily for me.

 

[The Joker]

Do you think people sit down with a stopwatch and a notepad and mark down how much screen time each character gets.

Actually yes, his screen time was timed. So was Batman's and others. Not that they needed to because it's obvious watching the movie, but yes he was officially timed at twenty something minutes in total.

Even when the joker isn't on screen his presence is felt. He is the movie, without him there is no movie.

You can say that about the main villain of any movie. Without them there's no challenge for the hero, and therefore there's no movie. Without the shark in Jaws there's nothing to do but watch happy swimmers in Amity Island.

I can name plenty of examples of characters who steal the screen no matter how much screen time they have. Take "A Few Good Men" with Nicholson's Col. Nathan Jessup. He has much less screen time than the other actors, but he absolutely makes that movie.

Personally I'd argue that's because Demi Moore and Cruise were bland as hell in that movie. Neither of them measure up to likes of Bale, Eckhart, Oldman etc in TDK.

Again, I don't have a problem with your opinion or your liking the rest of the film, but when you and others start telling people their wrong, or "I can't imagine what kind of love that is" you are belittling other peoples opinion. Yet you talk to regular people on the street and you say, "I loved the Dark Knight, the Joker was awesome!" Do you think any of them would say "what are you talking about, he wasn't on screen as much as the others!"

Excuse me I never told anyone they were wrong for anything. Quote me the line where I said that. I said I can't imagine what kind of love he has for the movie overall, since he says he does love it, but then turns around and says every character except for the Joker falls flat for him.

I've never heard anyone say they love a movie, yet they only find one character, a supporting character, any good. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

I don't know about you but in order to love a movie I need to like a lot more than just one of the characters.

 

[DACrowe]

Well....yeah to the people who love it.

Belated response. But I remember the same people who said they loved Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2, X2, The Incredible Hulk, etc. all tampering down their praise once the newness wore off, and by the time reboots rolled around, they downright loathed the movies they previously liked.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I do think those who love TWS when it's a month old are not indicative of its hype in five or six years. Which is how long The Dark Knight has remained the gold standard.

 

[DACrowe]

The Dark Knight is certainly not the gold standard fans believe it to be. I have not once been interested in watching it again in full since its theatrical release. It's not even a great superhero film. The first contemporary film to actually achieve the benchmark was Raimi's Spider-Man 2, IMHO.

Yes, I'm being honest about that. I'm actually glad that The Winter Soldier did not do all the tropes you get in a part 2 sequel. The Dark Knight was more guilty of that. I loved that great sense of camaraderie that Nolan's films lacked. But that's no surprise because of the loner, privileged position that Batman takes as opposed to the blue collar, military background of Captain America. Winter Soldier answered the question that Watchmen asked: who watches the Watchmen? Answer: heroes brave enough to stand up, like those who opposed HYDRA. They are part of the authorities, even if they've been infiltrated from within. It supports the belief that the system is not completely corrupt. You don't need one privileged man to make those choices in spite of the people's support.

Does it? Isn't The Winter Soldier a rather comforting bandaid on that Alan Moore (or technically speaking, Virgil) line. If there is corruption in the system, particularly an American system (this is Captain America after all), it is a foreign, evil insidious other. It is a foreign parasite of German origin. That is essentially the message of pro-war propaganda films of the 1940s and hardly that groundbreaking.

The system works because good men will always do what is right and stopped the insidiousness from within.

To make the comparison, The Dark Knight is a more honest, if romantic take. It does believe in the system, because what is Batman if not Mr. Order personified? He's even the rich "man." There are serious problems Gotham and something is very rotten, not because of a boogeyman like Hydra, but because society has let its institutions crumble. Good men, like in TWS, stand up to fight the good fight--Batman, Gordon, Harvey Dent, Rachel Dawes--and there are heinous consequences. Rachel dies, Harvey loses everything before finally his sanity and soul as well, and Batman's own psychological and personal issues are pushed to their breaking point. The system is still fixed in the Burkian small-c conservative sense, but it is saved from its own failures, and with great sacrifices, and even sacrificing of ideals, such as wiretapping and criminal conspiracy cover-up. And even those decisions come back with negative consequences in the sequel.

It is a far more thoughtful if unpleasant support of the same concepts in the Winter Soldier and its ending.

 

[Skrilla31]

I've never heard anyone say they love a movie, yet they only find one character, a supporting character, any good. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

I love S:TM even though it's ending is horrible.
I love Iron Man even though it's entire third act is horrible.
I love The Avengers even though it drags for long spurts.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I could still love a movie without being blind to it's flaws.

Like I said in my last post there's plenty to love about TDK beyond it's stiff cast (sans Joker) and pretentious dialogue.

 

[The Joker]

I love S:TM even though it's ending is horrible.
I love Iron Man even though it's entire third act is horrible.
I love The Avengers even though it drags for long spurts.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I could still love a movie without being blind to it's flaws.

In these cases you're naming one element of each movie you don't like, as opposed to one element you do like and the rest you don't.

I can totally see how you'd love a movie in spite of thinking the third act or the ending is weak, because you clearly like everything else. Meaning the pros far out weigh the cons.

Like I said in my last post there's plenty to love about TDK beyond it's stiff cast (sans Joker) and pretentious dialogue.

Ok, so out of curiosity please tell me all the things you love about TDK besides the Joker.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Belated response. But I remember the same people who said they loved Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2, X2, The Incredible Hulk, etc. all tampering down their praise once the newness wore off, and by the time reboots rolled around, they downright loathed the movies they previously liked.

It's not a perfect comparison, but I do think those who love TWS when it's a month old are not indicative of its hype in five or six years. Which is how long The Dark Knight has remained the gold standard.

That was not my point. My point was in 5 or 6 years time people like me who consider it an amazing CBM will most likely still love it and hold it to a high standard. There are still people who hold SM, SM2 and X2 to a high standard no matter what.

 

[Skrilla31]

Ok, so out of curiosity please tell me all the things you love about TDK besides the Joker.

There's to plenty of things I loved about TDK. First of all you have to give Nolan credit just for the look and feel of it and how f'n CRAZY it is to see a Batman story come to life in such a way. We'd never really seen a superhero movie take itself that serious before. I mean yea it's still silly but it boy is it serious too. It was amazing to witness.

I also loved the symbolism in the movie too. The story and the dialogue were kinda off in spots but the symbolism - when it wasn't being shoved down your throat - was pretty clever. I love what each character represented and the way they all clashed with one another.

Also gotta give love to that f'n chase scene. From the moment Batman ejects from the tumbler on his batpod to the moment Joker's truck flips over is pure bliss. Sometimes when you watch it you almost don't believe someone actually made a movie like this. It's that awesome. You know you watch Batman cartoons as a kid and you always imagined him taking on Joker in the streets of Gotham but to see it unfold like it did in TDK was just... wow. Like I said the only word that comes to mind is spellbinding.

 

[The Joker]

There's to plenty of things I loved about TDK. First of all you have to give Nolan credit just for the look and feel of it and how f'n CRAZY it is to see a Batman story come to life in such a way. We'd never really seen a superhero movie take itself that serious before. I mean yea it's still silly but it boy is it serious too. It was amazing to witness.

I also loved the symbolism in the movie too. The story and the dialogue were kinda off in spots but the symbolism - when it wasn't being shoved down your throat - was pretty clever. I love what each character represented and the way they all clashed with one another.

Also gotta give love to that f'n chase scene. From the moment Batman ejects from the tumbler on his batpod to the moment Joker's truck flips over is pure bliss. Sometimes when you watch it you almost don't believe someone actually made a movie like this. It's that awesome. You know you watch Batman cartoons as a kid and you always imagined him taking on Joker in the streets of Gotham but to see it unfold like it did in TDK was just... wow. Like I said the only word that comes to mind is spellbinding.

Ok, so besides Joker you liked the symbolism, the chase scene, and the look and feel of it. I won't pretend I understand how you can still love the movie based on those, when you dislike all the characters bar one, and you don't like the dialogue of the movie either. Two essential things you need to like to really love a movie, IMO.

But I asked and you answered. Thanks for telling me.

 

[Tony Stark]

Actually yes, his screen time was timed. So was Batman's and others. Not that they needed to because it's obvious watching the movie, but yes he was officially timed at twenty something minutes in total.

You totally missed the point. Yes I know they time actor's screen presence. My point was, do you think the general audience goer says, "oh I can't love him the most because he doesn't have the most screen time". A general viewer doesn't keep track of how much screen time a character has, they are more concerned with impact which the Joker owned that film.

You can say that about the main villain of any movie. Without them there's no challenge for the hero, and therefore there's no movie. Without the shark in Jaws there's nothing to do but watch happy swimmers in Amity Island.

Again missing the point.

Personally I'd argue that's because Demi Moore and Cruise were bland as hell in that movie. Neither of them measure up to likes of Bale, Eckhart, Oldman etc in TDK.

you <- The point ->

It doesn't matter the film I'm talking about. What I'm saying is there are many films where the character with the least amount of screen time owns the film.

Excuse me I never told anyone they were wrong for anything. Quote me the line where I said that. I said I can't imagine what kind of love he has for the movie overall, since he says he does love it, but then turns around and says every character except for the Joker falls flat for him.

I've never heard anyone say they love a movie, yet they only find one character, a supporting character, any good. That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

I don't know about you but in order to love a movie I need to like a lot more than just one of the characters.

I provided the quote. And then you go and contradict what you said. He doesn't agree with you, you don't have to understand it.

 

[DACrowe]

That was not my point. My point was in 5 or 6 years time people like me who consider it an amazing CBM will most likely still love it and hold it to a high standard. There are still people who hold SM, SM2 and X2 to a high standard no matter what.

True. But right now, if I started a thread about "Why Captain America: The Winter Soldier" is great. Most of the replies would be in agreement or be positive about the movie.

If I went to the Spidey boards and started a "Why Spider-Man 2 is great" thread in the right sub forum, it would be considered akin to trolling to many users and a huge debate would ensue. Fans were not that divided in 2004. Time changes that.