TDK vs CA: TWS

[Ms. Marvel]

I couldn't have said it better myself. ^

 

[Tony Stark]

Wich doesn´t make it a political thriller. I´m sorry, you can say whatever you want, but If i had to quickly the describe the type of movie TWS is to someone, i would never use the term "political thriller". I just don´t think that would be accurate. I think if i used that term people would expect a different movie.

It's a comic book movie done in the style of a political thriller, just as The Dark Knight was a comic book movie done in the style of a crime drama.

The casting of Robert Redford was purposeful.

 

[mclay18]

I completely disagree about the scope, and I gave the nod to TDK in this thread. One of the problems with TDK is it's limited scope. In all the Nolan films, he acts like Gotham City is in a bubble, and none of the Jokers actions have any consequence outside of Gotham.

I was referring to TDK's scope in terms of storyline and themes. Location-wise, it is limited to Gotham alone.

I also think Nolan's desire to make a lot of stuff practical and in-camera also add that edge to it. That big climax in CA:TWS with the three Helicarriers is absolutely incredible... but imagine how even better if it were miniature models enhanced with CGI?

 

[Tony Stark]

What are the political undertones and overtones of TWS?

"By holding a gun to everyone's head on earth calling it freedom. This isn't freedom, this is fear"

Do we really need to spell this out? National disaster in New York, massive surveillance system deployed as a counter measure, rushing through enacting measures without oversight, in the name of protection. OK, maybe they weren't undertones, because the film was pretty explicit about that.

We have a line from Steve Rogers and we have the reveal that HYDRA is controlling SHIELD. I wouldn´t say those two underdeveloped elements would be enough to make TWS a political thriller. That´s like saying TA is a comedy because they crack some jokes.

What makes it a political thriller is you have a ghost agent assassin in the Winter soldier who is linked to a key government officials death and a cover up where they are trying to frame an innocent person.

Sorry but Feige said at the very beginning of this project they were going for a political thriller.

 

[Space Ghost]

I was referring to TDK's scope in terms of storyline and themes. Location-wise, it is limited to Gotham alone.

I also think Nolan's desire to make a lot of stuff practical and in-camera also add that edge to it. That big climax in CA:TWS with the three Helicarriers is absolutely incredible... but imagine how even better if it were miniature models enhanced with CGI?

I´m a big fan of practical effects. Too bad CGI is king now.

 

[Tony Stark]

I was referring to TDK's scope in terms of storyline and themes. Location-wise, it is limited to Gotham alone.

I also think Nolan's desire to make a lot of stuff practical and in-camera also add that edge to it. That big climax in CA:TWS with the three Helicarriers is absolutely incredible... but imagine how even better if it were miniature models enhanced with CGI?

I'm not referring to location either. I'm referring to a guy who drives around in classified government tech, and a terrorist who blows up hospitals, and the scope never goes beyond the Gotham Police. When it finally does in TDKR, the government officials is shown to be incompetent, and the President goes on National television to say that he isn't going to do anything about it?

 

[Tony Stark]

I´m a big fan of practical effects. Too bad CGI is king now.

Those fight scenes were not CGI. I'll venture there were more practical effects in Cap 2 than there was in TDK. There was a CBS news special on the stunt work on Cap 2. The scene were Cap kicks TWS into a SUV and he dents the SUV, that is not CGI, the guy literally dented the car from the force of being pulled back.

 

[OcStat]

I think everyone needs to go back to the last page and read Seishin87's post, in case you missed it.

 

[Marvin]

Those fight scenes were not CGI. I'll venture there were more practical effects in Cap 2 than there was in TDK. There was a CBS news special on the stunt work on Cap 2. The scene were Cap kicks TWS into a SUV and he dents the SUV, that is not CGI, the guy literally dented the car from the force of being pulled back.

I don't think so.
Further, I'd argue there were a whole heck of a ton more visual effects in Cap2 than TDK.

 

[Space Ghost]

What makes it a political thriller is you have a ghost agent assassin in the Winter soldier who is linked to a key government officials death and a cover up where they are trying to frame an innocent person.

You have a ghost agent assassin that´s barely in the movie and the most memorable thing about him is that he is a fantastic martial artist. No political or thriller vibe in it at all.

Now imagine that some key government officials start being killed one by one through all the movie. We don´t know who is doing it. Steve, Natasha and other good people in SHIELD are being incriminated in a convincing way and then chased. The movie creates the feeling that there´s no way out. It makes us wonder how they´re gonna get out of that situation.

Imagine that The Winter Soldier is really portrayed as a ghost. He appears several times out of nowhere, kills people in a cool way, and we´re left wondering who he is through all most of the movie. We don´t know nothing about him. He is just a dangerous mythical figure. A ghost, and we hear stories about him.

And now imagine that the entire movie is about that and those subjects are really, really well explored. Imagine that we would have to wait until almost the end of the movie for the big revelation, and the big revelation was something very unexpected. THAT would be a thriller.

What we got was simply some hints. We didn´t get a real thriller. Not the way i see it. But this is just my opinion.

 

[Quasimod0]

I enjoyed TWS more, but I also loved TDK. I remember being on the edge of my seat during the whole movie. lol

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Big revelation for TWS? They showed him unmasked in one of the trailers.

 

[Space Ghost]

Big revelation for TWS? They showed him unmasked in one of the trailers.

It would have to be an entirely different movie. So we wouldn´t see him unmasked in trailers. Big revelation for everything.

I was just giving an example of what a real thriller would look like. Read things carefully, ok?

 

[Shikamaru]

Here's what people don't understand: there is no big revelation. There never was one there to begin with. They were never keeping Bucky's identity a secret. They made it clear since pre-production that it was Bucky. This is no Ra's/Talia/Mandarin situation.

If there's any big revelation in the film, it's that HYDRA is SHIELD.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

It would have to be an entirely different movie. So we wouldn´t see him unmasked in trailers. Big revelation for everything.

I was just giving an example of what a real thriller would look like. Read things carefully, ok?

Feige said it was more about how Cap reacts to the revelation than how the audience react. That's why they didn't try to keep TWS reveal a secret from the audience.

I'm just debating you no need to be snarky. It's all fun.

 

[Space Ghost]

Here's what people don't understand: there is no big revelation. There never was one there to begin with. They were never keeping Bucky's identity a secret. They made it clear since pre-production that it was Bucky. This is no Ra's/Talia/Mandarin situation.

If there's any big revelation in the film, it's that HYDRA is SHIELD.

I´m talking about both of those things being given a bigger level of secrecy and also being better explored. I´m not saying that in the current movie TWS´s identity was supposed to be secret. I was just giving an example about what a real thriller would look like.

There´s a difference between a movie having comedy elements and being a comedy. TWS has thriller elements but isn´t a thriller.

 

[Shikamaru]

I´m talking about both of those things being given a bigger level of secrecy abd also being better explored. I´m not saying that in the current movie TWS´s identity was supposed to be secret. I was just giving an example about what a real thriller would look like.

There´s a difference between a movie having comedy elements and being a comedy. TWS has thriller elements but isn´t a thriller.

It is a thriller in every sense of the word. It's just filtered through the context of a superhero world, much like how TDK is a crime drama filtered through the context of a superhero world.

 

[Space Ghost]

It is a thriller in every sense of the word. It's just filtered through the context of a superhero world, much like how TDK is a crime drama filtered through the context of a superhero world.

I don´t agree, but none of these things are official. You´re free to consider this an horror movie if you want to.

I just don´t see the movie being driven by a good level of intrigue and deception in order to make it a political thriller. If it is a political thriller, it´s just not a good example of what that subgenre is all about. Maybe it´s a little bit like a horror movie with no horror in it.

 

[DACrowe]

Yeah, I just discovered this thread, and...really?

Is it a contest at all?

Captain America 2 is a good movie. But it never transcended popcorn entertainment, at least for myself. Yes there was some token window dressing about alluding to drones and NSA spying, but while Nolan is never subtle, he actually used real world allegorical themes to question the audience's notion of these characters, as well as what was happening off screen when they left the theater. In short, The Dark Knight challenged its audience, Captain America: The Winter Soldier is a solid entertainment, better than most Marvel Studio films (though I still prefer Iron Man 1 and Avengers), but certainly in their ballpark.

Another way of considering it is that The Dark Knight didn't feel like a superhero movie while watching it. It also felt unpredictable during that first viewing, which is why audiences loved it so much that it got real awards love, at least for Heath Ledger, and at the BAFTA, PGA, and DGA. In fact, it's exclusion from a Best Picture nomination at the Oscars is why there are now 10 potential nominee slots instead of 5.

I do not see that kind of outpouring for Cap 2 by anyone except hardcore fans. It is a nice entertainment, but it does not stick with you weeks later, much less years.

 

[Tony Stark]

Here's what people don't understand: there is no big revelation. There never was one there to begin with. They were never keeping Bucky's identity a secret. They made it clear since pre-production that it was Bucky. This is no Ra's/Talia/Mandarin situation.

If there's any big revelation in the film, it's that HYDRA is SHIELD.

Exactly. Winter Soldier has been revealed as Bucky 10 years ago. It's sort of like in the Fellowship of the Rings, they didn't make it a secret that Gandalf wasn't really dead.

 

[DACrowe]

It's a comic book movie done in the style of a political thriller, just as The Dark Knight was a comic book movie done in the style of a crime drama.

The casting of Robert Redford was purposeful.

The casting of Redford was purposeful. I will not disagree that Marvel aspired toward a smarter kind of movie. However, it still ends with a video game esque third act of "Cap you have 15 minutes to put the macguffins in the macguffin holders so that there will be a big explosion," and it does that in spades.

I am not trying to ride on the movie, but it felt like a superhero movie with political influences. Conversely, The Dark Knight really did feel like a crime drama. If you take away the costumes and iconography, you still have a great drama about order and chaos between law enforcement and a terrorist of almost biblical implications.

If you took away the Captain America costume, it would still feel closer to GI Joe and Cobra with SHIELD and Hydra than it would the CIA and KGB. It wanted to break away, but it was missing that special something. I would say even The Wolverine last year did a better job of breaking away from formula than The Winter Soldier. Though both dip in third acts that fall back on tropes.

 

[DA_Champion]

People are saying that the cap 2 characters had significant arcs without being able to delineate what those arcs are, lol.

 

[Tony Stark]

Imagine that The Winter Soldier is really portrayed as a ghost. He appears several times out of nowhere, kills people in a cool way, and we´re left wondering who he is through all most of the movie. We don´t know nothing about him. He is just a dangerous mythical figure. A ghost, and we hear stories about him.

You mean imagine him appearing all of a sudden infront of Fury's SUV and launching an ordinance that blows it over? Or imagine him sniping Fury in Steve's apartment, and then fleeing and disappearing never to be found? Or imagine him jumping onto a car in the middle of a highway and ripping a passenger out and throwing him into oncoming traffic? Or hearing stories about how he killed Howard and Maria Stark, and once killed an Iranian Nuclear physicist that the Black Widow was ordered to extract? Or how he always used a soviet made rifle to kill his victims?

 

[DA_Champion]

It is a thriller in every sense of the word. It's just filtered through the context of a superhero world, much like how TDK is a crime drama filtered through the context of a superhero world.

Cap 2 is a pure comic book movie in that there are no real stakes. Rogers ends up achieveing a comprehensive and absolutebvictory at the end, which is the biggest criticism that non fans make of the genre, that there is no suspense since the ending is known in advance. The movie ends with all the good guys alive and happy at the end, and business is back to normal in Washington.

In contrast, batman does not achieve absolute victory in TDK. That is part of why it feels different. There are actual stakes, as if it's not just a cbm, but the story just go from point a to point b in a logical manner.

Does Nick Fury give Batman a magic USB stick at the end if TDK that will solve every problem? No.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Cap 2 is a pure comic book movie in that there are no real stakes. Rogers ends up achieveing a comprehensive and absolutebvictory at the end, which is the biggest criticism that non fans make of the genre, that there is no suspense since the ending is known in advance. The movie ends with all the good guys alive and happy at the end, and business is back to normal in Washington.

In contrast, batman does not achieve absolute victory in TDK. That is part of why it feels different. There are actual stakes, as if it's not just a cbm, but the story just go from point a to point b in a logical manner.

Does Nick Fury give Batman a magic USB stick at the end if TDK that will solve every problem? No.

That's not a bad thing. For me anyway.