TDK vs CA: TWS

[DorkyFresh]

Then you completely missed the central theme of TWS.

The central theme, to me, is trust and loyalty...whether it's to a soldier, a superior, a squad, the government, a neighbor, a new friend, or an old friend.

Please, continue to tell me how I didn't "get" the movie.

 

[Flint Marko]

Cap 2 is a pure comic book movie in that there are no real stakes. Rogers ends up achieveing a comprehensive and absolutebvictory at the end, which is the biggest criticism that non fans make of the genre, that there is no suspense since the ending is known in advance. The movie ends with all the good guys alive and happy at the end, and business is back to normal in Washington.

In contrast, batman does not achieve absolute victory in TDK. That is part of why it feels different. There are actual stakes, as if it's not just a cbm, but the story just go from point a to point b in a logical manner.

Does Nick Fury give Batman a magic USB stick at the end if TDK that will solve every problem? No.

Did you even watch the movie? There is no absolute victory in Cap 2 to speak of.
And did you even watch TDK? Because the sonar device that Lucius makes sure has a lot in common with the USB in Cap 2. Which was a point made earlier, yet you chose to ignore it.

 

[DA_Champion]

As opposed to the magic cell phone triangulation?

Can you seriously not tell the difference?

 

[DA_Champion]

The central theme, to me, is trust and loyalty...whether it's to a soldier, a superior, a squad, the government, a neighbor, a new friend, or an old friend.

Please, continue to tell me how I didn't "get" the movie.

Cap 2 is agood movie and a step up from marvel's other recent efforts. It it is the first marvel movie with good cinematography. It has few bad jokes, good action scenes, and a well delineated plot.

However, it is not the masterpiece that some marvel fanboys claim it to be. It's a good movie but not a great one. It is not in the same ballpark as TDK. it's closer to TDKR.

 

[Space Ghost]

Cap 2 is agood movie and a step up from marvel's other recent efforts. It it is the first marvel movie with good cinematography. It has few bad jokes, good action scenes, and a well delineated plot.

However, it is not the masterpiece that some marvel fanboys claim it to be. It's a good movie but not a great one. It is not in the same ballpark as TDK. it's closer to TDKR.

Honestly, be careful with what you say. You´re criticizing too much a movie that has way too many fans and i just learned that type of behaviour isn´t welcomed in this forum. People will start staying you are stirring the pot or something like that. It just happened to me.

 

[Hammer!]

While I would give TDK a slight edge over TWS, both of them are tiers better than TDKR.

 

[Victarion]

Yeah but Fox giving batman a magic sonar that works off cell phone signals is.

At that point, the damage was done and the Joker had won.

 

[DA_Champion]

At that point, the damage was done and the Joker had won.

Yup, Batman is defeated in TDK, is that the only time this has happened?

 

[Space Ghost]

You can sit there and sream that it wasn't suspenseful, but that doesn't mean that TWS isn't a political thriller. It's completely done in the style of a political thriller, it's not even a debatable point.

It´s totally debatable. You have yet to present an argument that leaves no room for debate. At this point it´s still debatable.

 

[Harry Dresden]

The Dark Knight for me and it was an easy decision.

It's not a complete stomp and CA: TWS is probably the closest thing to TDK for me besides The Avengers in terms of CBM but it's a hard one to beat. For instance, there is no performance strong as Ledger's in the Winter Soldier, that goes without saying. Bale also does a greater job then I think Evans did in portraying and showing the emotion of his character.

Winter Soldier does beat out TDK though in terms of action.

 

[Hammer!]

It´s totally debatable. You have yet to present an argument that leaves no room for debate. At this point it´s still debatable.

You're debating that CA:TWS isn't a political thriller when the filmmakers and talent have all publically stating for over a year they're making a political thriller ala Tom Clancy and Jason Bourne.

What about this can't you get around?

 

[Victarion]

They can say one thing and turn out another.

 

[Space Ghost]

You're debating that CA:TWS isn't a political thriller when the filmmakers and talent have all publically stating for over a year they're making a political thriller ala Tom Clancy and Jason Bourne.

What about this can't you get around?

Ok. If i say i´m making a comedy movie and the movie has no comedy in it, it´s still a comedy regardless of the actual content of the movie?

I´m pretty sure a lot of people, including the directors, want this to be seen as a political thriller. And i just don´t think that´s the best term to define the movie. You´re free to disagree. But when you go as far as saying it´s not debatable, i think you need to start presenting better arguments.

 

[kedrell]

Cap2, of course.

 

[jmc]

Alright, first things first. Winter Soldier is in spirit a political thriller, it may not be of the Tom Clancy variety of political thriller but it has enough elements to it that it can be easily placed into that political/espionage category, maybe more along the lines of a lighter version of a Bourne or more recent Bond film. The undertones and themes are as plain as the nose on your face that the creative team set out to create a political/spy movie, Captain America was more or less the perfect character to fit that type of movie, possibly the only superhero character that could work in that type of movie. Just because the movie isn't as hard hitting as some spy or political movies doesn't change the intentions of the film makers.

Second, upon further analysis between the two film I've kinda discovered a surprising link in that one deals with people's reaction in the face of anarky and one deals with people's reaction in the aftermath of anarky. The Dark Knight is analogous to facing terrorism at the time it's happening, there's destruction, confusing, panic, misinformation, like real terrorism it's utter chaos, authorities are stretched to their limits and no-one is quite sure what's going to happen next. Winter Soldier is analogous to what happens in the aftermath of such terror, government overreaction and overreaching, heightened surveillance and wiretapping, fear and paranoia, government branches do whatever they can in order to obtain a sense of control over future attacks. In that sense Winter Soldier is almost a spiritual sequel to The Dark Knight.

 

[OcStat]

Nice post!

 

[Space Ghost]

Alright, first things first. Winter Soldier is in spirit a political thriller, it may not be of the Tom Clancy variety of political thriller but it has enough elements to it that it can be easily placed into that political/espionage category, maybe more along the lines of a lighter version of a Bourne or more recent Bond film. The undertones and themes are as plain as the nose on your face that the creative team set out to create a political/spy movie, Captain America was more or less the perfect character to fit that type of movie, possibly the only superhero character that could work in that type of movie. Just because the movie isn't as hard hitting as some spy or political movies doesn't change the intentions of the film makers.

When you make a movie that has more elements of action, fantasy, adventure and sci-fi than the things you want it to be, you´re leaving the nature of your movie open to debate.

 

[jmc]

Not at all, it's all about intention. The thing is there's always level of fantasy to even the most grounded of political thrillers or spy movies. Just because something is heightened in its elements doesn't take away the intentioned goal of the creators. If there are hallmarks of a specific genre or type of movie ingrained into the narrative and overall theme of the film then there's no debate around it, the goal was to emulate a certain type of movie. It stops being comparable to a particular genre when there are no recognizable elements to said genre. Winter Soldier is frankly loaded with espionage and political elements, none of which are by accident. Yes, it's still a superhero film, but only because there's a superhero in the lead. The core of the movie is grounded in traditional spy movie elements, the superhero aspect is created around that foundation.

 

[PacificBoy]

Ok. If i say i´m making a comedy movie and the movie has no comedy in it, it´s still a comedy regardless of the actual content of the movie?

I´m pretty sure a lot of people, including the directors, want this to be seen as a political thriller. And i just don´t think that´s the best term to define the movie. You´re free to disagree. But when you go as far as saying it´s not debatable, i think you need to start presenting better arguments.

I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying The Winter Solider can't be identified as a political thriller? What's your best term then to define the movie?

 

[Space Ghost]

Not at all, it's all about intention. The thing is there's always level of fantasy to even the most grounded of political thrillers or spy movies. Just because something is heightened in its elements doesn't take away the intentioned goal of the creators. If there are hallmarks of a specific genre or type of movie ingrained into the narrative and overall theme of the film then there's no debate around it, the goal was to emulate a certain type of movie. It stops being comparable to a particular genre when there are no recognizable elements to said genre. Winter Soldier is frankly loaded with espionage and political elements, none of which are by accident. Yes, it's still a superhero film, but only because there's a superhero in the lead. The core of the movie is grounded in traditional spy movie elements, the superhero aspect is created around that foundation.

Oh, the intention is there, but intention isn´t everything.

The genre classification exists in order to present information to the viewer regarding the nature of the film. That classification should be based upon the elements that better define the film. In this case, i don´t think the term "political thriller" is the best we can find to describe the nature of this movie to someone.

The action, fantasy and sci-fi elements are so heavily present in this movie that the room left for the development of political and espionage themes is very, very, very small.

If you want to find a subgenre for this movie, you can call it a political thriller, though i think the movie is a very poor representation of what a political thriller is all about.

 

[Tony Stark]

The central theme, to me, is trust and loyalty...whether it's to a soldier, a superior, a squad, the government, a neighbor, a new friend, or an old friend.

Please, continue to tell me how I didn't "get" the movie.

Yes I'd agree with that, but you said that Fury and Widow had the biggest character arcs. Steve was the central character, and his arc dealt with dealing with who he was and what he is meant to do in this new world. This is something that all of the phase 3 films have dealt with the central character of the film.

 

[PacificBoy]

Oh, the intention is there, but intention isn´t everything.

The genre classification exists in order to present information to the viewer regarding the nature of the film. That classification should be based upon the elements that better define the film. In this case, i don´t think the term "political thriller" is the best we can find to describe the nature of this movie to someone.

The action, fantasy and sci-fi elements are so heavily present in this movie that the room left for the development of political and espionage themes is very, very, very small.

If you want to find a subgenre for this movie, you can call it a political thriller, though i think the movie is a very poor representation of what a political thriller is all about.

You're right, it's about the "actual content of the movie" as you put it earlier. So how else would you class a movie whose central plot is about a fascist group who subverts national interest to promote their brand of terror?

From Wiki:

A political thriller is a thriller that is set against the backdrop of a political power struggle. They usually involve various extra-legal plots, designed to give political power to someone, while his opponents try to stop him. They can involve national or international political scenarios. Political corruption, terrorism, and warfare are common themes. Normally the political party in power has ulterior motives and often will wish for total Fascist control and will work alone or with a shadow cabinet. Political thrillers can be based on true facts such as the assassination of John F Kennedy or the Watergate Scandal. There is a strong overlap with the conspiracy thriller.

When reviewing the film The Interpreter, Erik Lundegaard attempted a definition:

The basic plot is an ordinary man pulling an innocent thread which leads to a mess of corruption. The corruption should be political or governmental in nature

It's a working definition of course but TWS fits a lot of the description if you ask me.

 

[PacificBoy]

Alright, first things first. Winter Soldier is in spirit a political thriller, it may not be of the Tom Clancy variety of political thriller but it has enough elements to it that it can be easily placed into that political/espionage category, maybe more along the lines of a lighter version of a Bourne or more recent Bond film. The undertones and themes are as plain as the nose on your face that the creative team set out to create a political/spy movie, Captain America was more or less the perfect character to fit that type of movie, possibly the only superhero character that could work in that type of movie. Just because the movie isn't as hard hitting as some spy or political movies doesn't change the intentions of the film makers.

Second, upon further analysis between the two film I've kinda discovered a surprising link in that one deals with people's reaction in the face of anarky and one deals with people's reaction in the aftermath of anarky. The Dark Knight is analogous to facing terrorism at the time it's happening, there's destruction, confusing, panic, misinformation, like real terrorism it's utter chaos, authorities are stretched to their limits and no-one is quite sure what's going to happen next. Winter Soldier is analogous to what happens in the aftermath of such terror, government overreaction and overreaching, heightened surveillance and wiretapping, fear and paranoia, government branches do whatever they can in order to obtain a sense of control over future attacks. In that sense Winter Soldier is almost a spiritual sequel to The Dark Knight.

Like the analysis there.

 

[OcStat]

Just as The Winter Soldier is a superhero action movie at the end of the day, so is the Dark Knight. It doesn't lessen anything about the movie at all, I think it's a better movie because of it. DA mentioned earlier you could remove the comic elements of the film and it would still be an awesome movie. But with using that story with those characters; the themes in the story are expanded on those characters have already come to represent.

Batman and the Joker are the perfect characters to put out the ideas in The Dark Knight. Having to go to a questionable places to get the task done and people who have no morality, disregard for life. Captain America and his relationship with his country, his unwavering morality, and the methods of defense chosen by our*representitives; puts forth a very unique perspective on those ideas in The Winter Soldier.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Yes I'd agree with that, but you said that Fury and Widow had the biggest character arcs. Steve was the central character, and his arc dealt with dealing with who he was and what he is meant to do in this new world. This is something that all of the phase 3 films have dealt with the central character of the film.

I don't feel Steve had much of a character arc despite questioning his role in the world. He basically started the film with a suspicious mindset and that mindset persisted throughout until he found out about Hydra. It would've been more of an arc if he were unquestionably loyal to Shield THEN started becoming suspicious.

Bruce, on the other hand, went from being the hero of Gotham to being the villain. That's quite the character arc.