TDK vs CA: TWS

[Marvin]

I'm still curious if people think TWS was a better experience than Spidey2

 

[Flint Marko]

I'd say so.

 

[Harley2004]

The Dark Knight, is still the benchmark.

TDK, easily.

 

[Space Ghost]

The issue isn't what is being said, it is the fact that you're very insulting in how you approach posters. You are antagonistic toward those who disgaree with you. Most of the MoS people you keep naming are WAY more respectful than the small sample size I have seen from you.

I agree. Sometimes i´m a little impulsive and arrogant. I´m gonna try to control it.

But i also wanna show you that, perhaps, i´m not that wrong. And this is just one small example. There are more.

In the Superman thread i was discussing with the Human Torch (this sounds stupid), and here is a sample of the discussion:

I gave an opinion about STM. I said it was campy and i had enough as a kid. Now i wanted something more serious. And his reply was:

"'Cause Supe has always been about teh Grim 'n Gritty!"

You see, a sarcastic remark that takes the discussion nowhere.

Then i actually gave a serious answer, without insulting anyone:

"It´s about whatever the creative team wants it to be. If you want a darker Superman, you can find it. Those comics exist. If you want campiness, you can also find it."

And then he said something like:

"I have to laugh at people who try to say S:TM was campy."

So, he laughs at people who have an opinion he doesn´t agree with. You say i´m antagonistic. Isn´t that being antagonistic too? He makes sarcastic remarks and then says he laughs at people who have a different opinion, and that´s all good. Nobody gives him "friendly warnings". But somehow i´m very "insulting".

I´m sorry, but there´s a little bit of a double standard going on here. Wich is normal. We´re all humans. I don´t expect people to make sense and be right all the time. Sometimes they´re wrong. Sometimes i´m wrong too.

 

[Ajendo]

I'll never understand why some people keep saying that if you take Ledger out of the movie then it's not as good. Well of course it isn't. Is The Empire Strikes Back as good without Vader? Jaws as good without the shark? Inglorious Basterds as good without Hans Landa? The Silence of the Lambs as good without Lecter etc? Of course they're not.

No offense but it's the most stupid redundant thing when people say TDK is not as good without Ledger.

But it isn't. Ledger's performance was so unexpected and by far the best thing about the movie. Everything else was just...there; executed in a mature way if course as opposed to the silly cheese that had plagued batman movies prior to Nolan's involvement. TDK is horrendously overrated and presents itself that merely removes the stigma that the franchise had adopted from killing the comic book movie genre. People need to calm themselves. BB is a better movie than TDK but the latter mainly rides in the shoulders of Ledger's joker.

The movies you listed are quite silly to compare. Jaws is a shark movie, so obviously there's going to be shark. Look at the Bond movies, bond as a character never and should never play second fiddle to the villains and the films themselves are still largely good enough to not be identified by the villain being the main contributing factor.

TWS doesn't try to "change the game" it presents itself as being what it is; a comic book movie that embraces the fact that it's a comic book movie and manages to make all facets of the movie work on their own individual terms. Captain America isn't as cool as batman and yet, TWS complete with Cap's old fashioned sensibilities contributes to the movie in not only making cap a more interesting character than Bale's Wayne/batman but the movie is better executed and far more enjoyable.

 

[Ajendo]

This is the biggest load of crap ever.

Really? Wake up and stop dreaming. Name me a batman film where this isn't the case and for the record I'm talking live action theatrical release here.

 

[Ajendo]

I think that Ridley Scott's Alien would be very poor if you took out the xenomorph.

Prometheus was a crappy movie and it had architects, space jockeys and a xenomorph and was directed by Scott himself.

 

[Ajendo]

I interpret it to mean that Ledger's performance was far stronger than anyone else's, so it elevated the movie as a whole. All the other actors were fine, but they weren't as memorable.

Whereas with TWS, while no one performance was close to Ledger's, as a whole, they were more cohesive, and let the story be the star instead of just one actor. The casting was spot on for pretty much all the roles. Even Frank Grillo, whom I never seen before this, was great. He wasn't just a straight out villain, but the transition from believing he was working with Cap to being against him at the end was believable.

Precisely. Thanks for thinking clearly and not being an over zealous biased fanatic.

 

[Ajendo]

Oldman and Eckhart were also far better than any of the acting in CA2.

Hahahahahaha....this is why many not all but many batman fans are treated the way they are.

But anyway, it's a shame DC/WB lack the faith to continue telling independent batman movies and why the character is being shoehorned into a superman sequel. Remind me who the new batman is again?

 

[Space Ghost]

But it isn't. Ledger's performance was so unexpected and by far the best thing about the movie. Everything else was just...there; executed in a mature way if course as opposed to the silly cheese that had plagued batman movies prior to Nolan's involvement. TDK is horrendously overrated and presents itself that merely removes the stigma that the franchise had adopted from killing the comic book movie genre. People need to calm themselves. BB is a better movie than TDK but the latter mainly rides in the shoulders of Ledger's joker.

And TWS isn´t, right? TWS is just that good.

What does "overrated" even means? It means there is an official rating for this movie but people are rating the movie above that official rating?

The official true rating of this movie is 7/10, but people are rating it 9/10, so the movie is overrated.

Is that what it means?

 

[DA_Champion]

The Dark Knight, and I don't consider it to be close either. I agree that CA:TWS is more in the ballpark of Iron Man, TDKR and X-Men: First Class, but I'm not sure it's better than any of them. It's still one of the best in the genre.

Between Winter Soldier, Iron Man, First Class, Avengers, and Dark Knight Rises it's a close call in my opinion. I'd lean as follows, but I'm not sure:

First Class
Dark Knight Rises
Avengers
Winter Soldier
Iron Man

Most people would vote for TWS now but only because it's fresh. In a year the results will probably be different.

 

[Ajendo]

Loool. Far superior in what? TWS has such a basic and predictable story that i don´t even know how anyone can say it is a far superior film. Plus, we don´t even get a decent soundtrack or a decent villain. And even the fans know that. That´s why they try to take Ledger out of the equation, hoping that way the movies can finally become comparable, wich is stupid. The movie has Ledger in it. Deal with it. It´s part of the movie. We can´t discuss how good a movie would be without him because we didn´t saw that movie. It didn´t happen.

Because TDK was such an original movie. Ppffft! The score? We're not really talking about the merits if the music but I can definitely say with a straight face that the score was definitely better utilised than zinner's typical rehashed nonsense he always does. I'm yet to see a batman film with decent fight scenes, that's something that needs serious addressing and fundamental to who batman is. Ledger is the only real good thing about TDK and the most memorable thing. If this film was titled, the joker or the joker rises or a title that centred on the joker then we wouldn't be having this discussion but it's not it's called TDK, which is who batman is and once again batman plays second fiddle to his villains and even Bale's performance is hardly impressive. It's just standard, if anything Bale's bat voice worsened from BB, which is a far better movie. Nice try, fella but no.

 

[Space Ghost]

Because TDK was such an original movie. Ppffft! The score? We're not really talking about the merits if the music but I can definitely say with a straight face that the score was definitely better utilised than zinner's typical rehashed nonsense he always does. I'm yet to see a batman film with decent fight scenes, that's something that needs serious addressing and fundamental to who batman is. Ledger is the only real good thing about TDK and the most memorable thing. If this film was titled, the joker or the joker rises or a title that centred on the joker then we wouldn't be having this discussion but it's not it's called TDK, which is who batman is and once again batman plays second fiddle to his villains and even Bale's performance is hardly impressive. It's just standard, if anything Bale's bat voice worsened from BB, which is a far better movie. Nice try, fella but no.

I´m glad you could find something real good about TDK. I can´t say the same about TWS.

 

[DA_Champion]

Ledger is the only real good thing about TDK

Marvel fanboys.

 

[Harley2004]

Most people would vote for TWS now but only because it's fresh. In a year the results will probably be different.

I think that will be the case with many of the Disney/Marvel movies. They are entertaining but forgettable. The Dark Knight will be just as good 20 years from now.

 

[Ajendo]

And TWS isn´t, right? TWS is just that good.

What does "overrated" even means? It means there is an official rating for this movie but people are rating the movie above that official rating?

The official true rating of this movie is 7/10, but people are rating it 9/10, so the movie is overrated.

Is that what it means?

I for one am not judging it on whatever individuals or critics are scoring it as. The perspective I'm looking from is, as a piece of motion art and as I've been saying, TDK is a good movie that's not even up for debate but any greatness the movie may ascend to lies squarely and solely with Ledger's performance. However, this isn't a movie titled joker: the one man show. If it were then the film would be a perpetual coup des gras but it isn't. It's a batman film where other characters are involved and while everyone for the most part competently did their jobs, it's one of those situations where many people are mistakingly and wrongfully attributing and accrediting the greatness of Ledger to other aspects of the movie.

 

[Ajendo]

I´m glad you could find something real good about TDK. I can´t say the same about TWS.

DC fanboys.

 

[Ajendo]

Marvel fanboys.

I'm actually more a DC fan than a Marvel fan but I'm a realist and DC's output of movies is pathetic.

 

[Space Ghost]

I for one am not judging it on whatever individuals or critics are scoring it as. The perspective I'm looking from is, as a piece of motion art and as I've been saying, TDK is a good movie that's not even up for debate but any greatness the movie may ascend to lies squarely and solely with Ledger's performance. However, this isn't a movie titled joker: the one man show. If it were then the film would be a perpetual coup des gras but it isn't. It's a batman film where other characters are involved and while everyone for the most part competently did their jobs, it's one of those situations where many people are mistakingly and wrongfully attributing and accrediting the greatness of Ledger to other aspects of the movie.

Right. So, the movie has a very good story, very good performances overall, good character development, great score, great cinematography and some very powerful moments because of Ledger. He shot the movie, wrote the screenplay, created the score, directed and played all characters. Yeah, that´s brilliant.

 

[Space Ghost]

I'm actually more a DC fan than a Marvel fan but I'm a realist and DC's output of movies is pathetic.

You created an alternative reality just for yourself.

 

[DA_Champion]

Right. So, the movie has a very good story, very good performances overall, good character development, great score, great cinematography and some very powerful moments because of Ledger. He shot the movie, wrote the screenplay, created the score, directed and played all characters. Yeah, that´s brilliant.

Actually, Heath Ledger directed some of the Joker scenes

For example, the videotape of the fake Batman being captured and killed.

 

[titansupes]

TWS was great. TDK was beyond great.

 

[The Joker]

But it isn't. Ledger's performance was so unexpected and by far the best thing about the movie. Everything else was just...there; executed in a mature way if course as opposed to the silly cheese that had plagued batman movies prior to Nolan's involvement.

That's what you say, but the fact of the matter is Ledger is far from being the only praised element of the movie. The most praised element? Definitely. But not the sole one. Far from it.

TDK is horrendously overrated and presents itself that merely removes the stigma that the franchise had adopted from killing the comic book movie genre. People need to calm themselves. BB is a better movie than TDK but the latter mainly rides in the shoulders of Ledger's joker.

Again that is all your own personal minority opinion. If the movie was just riding on Joker's shoulders the shine of the Joker would have worn off years ago, but here we are 6 years later and the movie is still holding the same high position it held back when it was released. If the movie was just riding on one character to do that then it would have lost steam by now with a lot of the general consensus.

The fact that it's still going strong, still regarded as not only the best Batman movie but best CBM of all time, and an influential one, too, proves the movie has a lot more strengths than just the Joker.

The movies you listed are quite silly to compare. Jaws is a shark movie, so obviously there's going to be shark.

No they're not. They're all valid examples of celebrated movies with key characters or performances that elevate the movies. Take them out and the movies are not half as good as they are.

Look at the Bond movies, bond as a character never and should never play second fiddle to the villains and the films themselves are still largely good enough to not be identified by the villain being the main contributing factor.

The only Bond movie that comes close to being as praised and celebrated as TDK is Goldfinger. It's the iconic quintessential Bond movie. Goldfinger and Oddjob are iconic cinema villains.

Furthermore Batman did not play second fiddle to the Joker in TDK. The movie not only focused on Batman's character way more than Joker, but Batman had a ot more screen time than Joker did, too.

TWS doesn't try to "change the game" it presents itself as being what it is; a comic book movie that embraces the fact that it's a comic book movie and manages to make all facets of the movie work on their own individual terms. Captain America isn't as cool as batman and yet, TWS complete with Cap's old fashioned sensibilities contributes to the movie in not only making cap a more interesting character than Bale's Wayne/batman but the movie is better executed and far more enjoyable.

TDK didn't try and change the game either. Not to the level it ended up doing. Nolan simply set out to make the best movie he could make. It's just another tribute to the greatness of TDK that it was such a game changer, such a landmark in the genre, when it had never intended to be.

TWS not reaching those heights is just one of many reasons why it's inferior to TDK.

 

[The Endless]

For me they are about even, in different ways.

Ledger's performance is better than anyone elses in TDK or TWS. And yes, if it wasn't for his magnetic, terrifying performance as the Joker TDK would not be as good. Joker MAKES that movie. Not Batman.

Frankly, Batman sucks in his own movie. The action scenes are terrible. Bale's voice is laughable. Batman just doesn't have any "holy ****" moments in my opinion. It's a stripped down version of the character. I thought after Begins we'd see a more exciting, experienced, bad ass Batman. Alas, Begins still has the best Batman scenes. Specifically him creeping around the docks. The idea of Batman wanting to quit just doesn't sit right with me. I get this is Nolan's adaptation, and i respect that totally. Doesn't mean i have to like it.

Captain America doesn't have that problem. Cap rocks the hell out of his movie. Thanks to directors who know how to shoot action scenes and writers who completely nail the essence of the character without having to compromise him. Captain America is a much harder character to pull off than Batman. You could maybe forgive the film makers of compromising Cap's character to appeal to more people (non Americans) but they simply don't. They are like "this is who Captain America is, take him or leave him". I don't get that feeling with Nolan's Batman.

But TDK has a more unique story plus it has two other fantastic performances with Oldman and Eckhart. The ending of the film is intimate and intense, rather than large and bombastic, which i definitely appreciate. But it isn't without flaws. Since TDK came out 6 years ago i'm still waiting for someone to explain in detail why Batman and Gordon didn't just pin Dent's murders on Joker? They are lying about the whole thing anyway, so why not lie and say Joker did it? It's not like no one would believe that.

The Winter Soldier for me though is just much more fun to watch. It has Robert ****ing Redford saying "Hail Hydra" with his dying breath. It's just beyond awesome. It balances serious content with entertainment better than TDK, for me. The Hydra conspiracy is far fetched, but it's a cool pulpy conspiracy thriller story that has roots in the comics but still touches on things that are happening in the real world.

So overall, I think TDK is a better movie, with a more interesting story, fantastic villain and some strong performances. But TWS has an amazing portrayal of it's titular hero, unlike TDK, is a whole lot more fun, has stunning action scenes, strong acting across the board and a more pulpy yet still interestiing story.

 

[Ajendo]

Right. So, the movie has a very good story, very good performances overall, good character development, great score, great cinematography and some very powerful moments because of Ledger. He shot the movie, wrote the screenplay, created the score, directed and played all characters. Yeah, that´s brilliant.

All those things you mentioned; TWS did and did better. Like I've said, TDK is a good movie but Ledger is the highlight of the film. Everything else is just standard.