The All Things Flash Thread. - Part 2

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I agree with yor whole post but only to add something to that quoted part, I'd say that conversely, I believe The Flash also simply promised to be a product too far removed from the sensibilities of Keaton's Batman fans/lovers.

That's very true... in retrospect, they probably should have pursued the Thomas Wayne angle with a relatively big name actor and saved Keaton for a Batman Beyond in the vein of Burton, with some flashbacks etc.

Seeing Keaton...

Spoiler

jump around like a hyperactive monkey in a kitchen and scurrying around on the back of a Kryptonian

...felt slightly weird and out of place. His Batman was all about stillness and sudden moves. Saying as little and doing as little as possible to get the job done.

 

[kguillou]

That's very true... in retrospect, they probably should have pursued the Thomas Wayne angle with a relatively big name actor and saved Keaton for a Batman Beyond in the vein of Burton, with some flashbacks etc.

Seeing Keaton...

Spoiler

jump around like a hyperactive monkey in a kitchen and scurrying around on the back of a Kryptonian

...felt slightly weird and out of place. His Batman was all about stillness and sudden moves. Saying as little and doing as little as possible to get the job done.

Ok you were bothered by that too, right?! Seeing Keaton do that in the kitchen seen felt very weird to me. My friend disagreed and was like, "no, thats Batman and thats what Batman does," but I was like,"um...i've never seen Batman act quite like that."

 

[flickchick85]

That's very true... in retrospect, they probably should have pursued the Thomas Wayne angle with a relatively big name actor and saved Keaton for a Batman Beyond in the vein of Burton, with some flashbacks etc.

Seeing Keaton...

Spoiler

jump around like a hyperactive monkey in a kitchen and scurrying around on the back of a Kryptonian

...felt slightly weird and out of place. His Batman was all about stillness and sudden moves. Saying as little and doing as little as possible to get the job done.

That’s why I’m genuinely surprised Keaton fans are so happy with what they got from him here. Keaton was my first Batman (and superhero in general), and yet I felt nothing watching him here because what they gave him to do in this movie was SO “generic Old Bruce” that he felt entirely interchangeable with Clooney or Bale or ANY former Batman actor to me.

I honestly feel like they deliberately wrote the part that way because they weren’t sure which former Batman they’d be able to get, and then when Keaton signed on, they just threw in a couple of Keaton callbacks and called it a day.

 

[DCDAVE]

Snyderverse and anti DC YouTube channels are panning WB for the Flash. Some are saying DC should just go away for 5 years and even fire Gunn. I am really going to back Blue Beetle and Aquaman now. This is personal.

 

[J.Drangal]

I'll do you one further, I think the 30-55 crowd is probably the only crowd who went to see this. This thing did not appeal to younger millennials--which is the crowd big expensive blockbusters need to target hard. NWH had that advantage as Tobey and Andrew were immediate draws to the millennial crowd...even ANDREW'S Spider-man who was largely divisive, people were interested in seeing him return.

Yeah, from the get-go, the whole project failed to truly appeal to its two main targets.
Divisive or not popular enough versions of the main characters for CBM's regular audience to really get excited about, and a general tone far too flashy (no pun intended) for older viewers to really get their nostalgia fix.

That's very true... in retrospect, they probably should have pursued the Thomas Wayne angle with a relatively big name actor and saved Keaton for a Batman Beyond in the vein of Burton, with some flashbacks etc.

I agree. Maybe they should have taken that angle and brought in Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I feel like his popularity through other TV shows (I guess?) might have attracted the usual CBM audience a little more.
I don't know.

Seeing Keaton...

Spoiler

jump around like a hyperactive monkey in a kitchen and scurrying around on the back of a Kryptonian

...felt slightly weird and out of place. His Batman was all about stillness and sudden moves. Saying as little and doing as little as possible to get the job done.

I haven't seen the film (yet?), but that direction was clear from the first trailer and it really broke my heart...
I love Keaton's Batman, he's my favorite, and even though I'm sure he's still great in the role (and that seems to be confirmed), I already know I'd be completely taken out of the film by this kind of thing, and that just discourages me...

EDIT : @flickchick85
What you're describing in your last post is exactly what I'm fearing...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[DocLathropBrown]

This is where we'd say ''Heads will roll for this'', but I don't think there's actually anyone left at WB to punish.

Oh, they can find interns to take it out on...

 

[Silver Surfer]

Snyderverse and anti DC YouTube channels are panning WB for the Flash. Some are saying DC should just go away for 5 years and even fire Gunn. I am really going to back Blue Beetle and Aquaman now. This is personal.

Firing Gunn is insane. He is the right man for the job. With that said, taking a bit of a hiatus before beginning a new slate of movies is not a bad idea.

Right now the DC brand is rancidly toxic, give the GA some time to forget about the DCEU and start to miss DC characters.

Say what you want about Star Wars, but the appetite for another Star Wars movie is a lot better than it was shortly after TROS' release.

 

[Filmfreak]

That’s why I’m genuinely surprised Keaton fans are so happy with what they got from him here. Keaton was my first Batman (and superhero in general), and yet I felt nothing watching him here because what they gave him to do in this movie was SO “generic Old Bruce” that he felt entirely interchangeable with Clooney or Bale or ANY former Batman actor to me.

I honestly feel like they deliberately wrote the part that way because they weren’t sure which former Batman they’d be able to get, and then when Keaton signed on, they just threw in a couple of Keaton callbacks and called it a day.

Definitely. This never felt like the same person or universe as the Burton films, unlike the two Spider-Men from No Way Home. This seemed like the only reason it happened was for the sake of nostalgia and fan-service but with poor, generic execution. And I'm sorry, I just don't believe that anyone would legitimately love his appearance in this if they weren't positively prejudiced no matter what. Besides the writing that made him a one-dimensional plot convenience character, the acting itself wasn't that great either. Keaton seemed genuinely bored the whole time.

 

[TheGDBatman]

This a friendly reminder that you don't need to make excuses when a bad movie you like bombs critically and financially. It's okay to admit you enjoyed a bad movie that others despised. Heck, I still enjoy Batman Forever and Batman & Robin and I'm well aware of those movies shortcomings.

Also, told you so.

And here’s comes the gaslighting

 

[DCDAVE]

Firing Gunn is insane. He is the right man for the job. With that said, taking a bit of a hiatus before beginning a new slate of movies is not a bad idea.

Right now the DC brand is rancidly toxic, give the GA some time to forget about the DCEU and start to miss DC characters.

Say what you want about Star Wars, but the appetite for another Star Wars movie is a lot better than it was shortly after TROS' release.

True for the most part but Luke and Darth Vader are dead. I don’t think fans want to see Rey Skywalker. DC has Superman/Batman two of the three most popular superheroes. Two years is long enough to get a proper Superman movie together.

 

[TheGDBatman]

I think ultimately this thing flopping is not one single thing but a cacophony of factors all coming together:

1) First and foremost: Ezra Miller. And no, i'm not talking about their controversies. The general public arent aware of that stuff...they arent aware of Ezra Miller in general and thats problem #1. Ezra is not a draw as a leading actor. He's no Tom Holland. He played a supporting role in a maligned movie (Justice League 2017) and a supporting role in another lukewarm series (Fantastic Beasts). Ezra is not a household name so your average joe has no vested in interest in seeing this person play The Flash.

2) The CGI. We're all mostly in agreement that this movie's CGI is inexcusable. I think the people of the GA who DID see this movie were turned off by it and are telling their friends and family (this movie looks like s*** dont go see it). Thus killing wom.

3) Crowded summer: May and June were CROWDED. And Thus this movie is not the only one thats doing badly. Elemental bombed hard as well and other movies are struggling. The Little Mermaid, a movie that by all accounts should have broken the box office wide open is also flopping. There's too many big releases in a short time span and audiences are getting burnt out on these things already.

4) The Flash just doesnt have enough cache (yet) with general audiences. This is the toughest truth to face but i think a relevant one. The Flash is not Batman, or Superman or Wonder Woman or Spider-Man. Yes, there was a fairly "popular" CW series that ran for 10 years but one that averaged, what a couple million viewers at its peak? The Flash to mass audiences is still an untested character and thus really had no reason to care about this big multiverse event movie starring this character. The character probably needed to be meticulously built up so people cared about him.

Now, some of you are saying "Kguillou, the movie is just bad and thus its performing bad plain and simple" but we've seen so many "bad" movies or movies that got dunked on by critics (Super Mario) do gang busters at the box office regardless or at least have a huge frontloaded opening weekend. My analysis above is about why WB couldnt even get people in the door to give the movie a chance because thats exactly what this low box office indicates. People just didnt go see it to decide for themselves if it was bad or not.

I think I mostly agree with these points. The benefit to the shared universe model is that you can build up the cache of these characters throughout multiple appearances. The Flash had what, one (minus a blink and you miss it appearance in both SS and BVS?) appearance of substance. Couple that with the lack of DC quality over the years and anything short of perfect WOM appears to be the kiss of death for the movie.

As for the CGI, I genuinely don’t believe it’s as bad as people are making it out to be. The problem is that the character relies so much on CGI, so when you’re constantly bombarded by quantity over quality, it can be a bit tiresome. It wasn’t as bad as some other movies, but it was bad enough throughout that it took me out of a few scenes.

I think I just kept coming back to “this universe is dead, bury it” before going to see this movie. Ended up loving it, warts and all. It’s not the perfect template for movies moving forward, but it didn’t have to be. It entertained me and left me satisfied as we march towards the end of the DCEU.

 

[DyeLorean]

Gunn has an uphill battle and having all these DC movies bomb is not making his job any easier. Is gonna take a lot of effort to change people's minds that what's coming is "something different".
I have faith in his Superman take, but everything else? I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

 

[king666]

2) The CGI. We're all mostly in agreement that this movie's CGI is inexcusable. I think the people of the GA who DID see this movie were turned off by it and are telling their friends and family (this movie looks like s*** dont go see it). Thus killing wom.

Quite possibly the biggest factor here.

 

[The Batman]

Firing Gunn is insane. He is the right man for the job.

That remains to be seen.

 

[samsnee]

This is where we'd say ''Heads will roll for this'', but I don't think there's actually anyone left at WB to punish.

Well Andy is directing Batman so doesn’t look like it.

But Aquaman 2 is probably dead in the water at this point.

 

[TheGDBatman]

Gunn has an uphill battle and having all these DC movies bomb is not making his job any easier. Is gonna take a lot of effort to change people's minds that what's coming is "something different".
I have faith in his Superman take, but everything else? I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

I think it helps that there’ll be a year and a half or so between Aquaman and Superman Legacy. Lots of time to give the GA a break and start working in positive publicity.

 

[kguillou]

Quite possibly the biggest factor here.

And thats all on Andy too. When Andy says the CGI was done that way on purpose i absolutely believe him, the VFX artists had to have been deliberately instructed to make the film look like it does.

 

[DyeLorean]

I think it helps that there’ll be a year and a half or so between Aquaman and Superman Legacy. Lots of time to give the GA a break and start working in positive publicity.

I don't know if that's a lot of time, but I do think a standalone Superman movie (which we don't have since 2013) with a new actor is gonna be as tempting as The Batman, and that's a good example that we know if done right it works.

 

[Filmfreak]

And thats all on Andy too. When Andy says the CGI was done that way on purpose i absolutely believe him, the VFX artists had to have been deliberately instructed to make the film look like it does.

Muschietti said that some effects are deliberately like that because we see things from The Flash's perspective. That would make some sense if it was only for the scenes where he's running, but the hideous CGI extends to everything. In scenes that Barry is not using his powers, in half the movie where he doesn't even have his powers, even in a few moments that he's not in a scene. The worst visual effects for me were in stuff like the Bat mansion, Batman's cape and cowl, faces and things like that where there was absolutely no reason to be this awful or in some cases to even use special effects for.

 

[Hurm...]

And thats all on Andy too. When Andy says the CGI was done that way on purpose i absolutely believe him, the VFX artists had to have been deliberately instructed to make the film look like it does.

I disagree. I think Muschietti has an intent for the designs behind the CGI-heavy scenes — and he thinks THAT is what is throwing people off about it. But it’s actually the execution of the CGI moments that people have an issue with.

I think Muschietti genuinely thinks the CGI is good in this, which is shocking to me. It goes to show his weaknesses as a director.

 

[Hurm...]

Muschietti said that some effects are deliberately like that because we see things from The Flash's perspective. That would make some sense if it was only for the scenes where he's running, but the hideous CGI extends to everything. In scenes that Barry is not using his powers, in half the movie where he doesn't even has his powers, even in a few moments that he's not in a scene. The worst visual effects for me where in stuff like the Bat mansion, Batman's cape and cowl, faces and things like that where there was absolutely no reason to be this awful or in some cases to even use special effects for.

You better explained my point in my previous post.

 

[Hurm...]

I believe it was an overuse of CGI in general that resulted in half-a**ed execution. There’s only so much that effects artists can focus on when you’ve got CGI in every scene, a limited effects budget and limited time. It’s bad direction that caused VFX artists to be spread so thin. They end up prioritizing certain scenes over others.

 

[Matt.S99]

It was definitely less noticeable in the theatrical version compared to the fan event cut they showed, though still visible in some spots, but there are some scenes with both Barry’s, and one clearly looks like Ezra’s head pasted onto another persons body. I don’t understand the need to CGI that.

Orphan Black did this same thing on a Canadian TV budget with multiple versions of the same actor and it was flawless. Because it was never Tatiana Maslany next to a CGI version of herself. It was always Tatiana next to Tatiana. She filmed each scene as each character next to a body double and then all the footage was spliced together. Why couldn’t a bit budget comic film do this??


I think a BIG issue these days (not just with this film) is that they use CGI for everything. Even mundane backgrounds that can be done practically. I guess it saves some money, but when CGI artists are stretched so thin because they need to render everything in a scene, everything suffers. I wish we could go back to the days when CGI was used sparingly and with precision.

 

[DyeLorean]

I believe it was an overuse of CGI in general that resulted in half-a**ed execution. There’s only so much that effects artists can focus on when you’ve got CGI in every scene, a limited effects budget and limited time. It’s bad direction that caused VFX artists to be spread so thin. They end up prioritizing certain scenes over others.

If there's one thing they had was time. This thing has been cooking since at least 2020.