The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Amazing Spider-Man 2 General Discussion - - - Part 84

[spideyboy_1111]

That's what all good characterizations of crazy characters do. You get some kind of plausible insight into them to make them credible characters.



You and I went over this yesterday when you mentioned that TV report you saw about some guy who bulldozed his elderly neighbors because he thought they were drug dealers.

The difference is that's a second hand TV report. You don't know the details and circumstances that led to this. Obviously the guy was crazy to react the way he did but what led to it, as in what fed his crazy paranoia? Maybe the guy saw dodgy looking comings and goings at his neighbor's house. Maybe he heard rumors. You don't know the ins and outs because it's not like a movie where you see it first hand and get the intimate perspective. The onus is on the movie to sell to the audience as credible.

Electro's whole obsession with Spider-Man is predicated on a 20 second meeting with him in the middle of an action scene. Dillon thinks he's special because out of all the people in the city Spider-Man saved him and he says this while watching TV footage of Spidey saving people from a burning building, not to mention Spidey saves people every day.

The portrayal of this character just made him look like an idiot, not a crazy.

here's the key factor though. You don't have to "understand" them. You just have to be able to understand parts of there affliction. You compared Misery yesterday about the catalyst that made her snap. Max definitely has a catalyst... it was his death. He was on his last edge when we first meet him, and everything accumulated into him snapping. The problem wasn't his level of crazy... it was his lack of motivation. We understand Joker's motivation because it's "chaos". electro has no real motivation. we know nothing about what his crazy head is actually thinking it's trying to do... that's the issue. Not so much the "how and why, and what kind" of crazy he is.

 

[The Joker]

here's the key factor though. You don't have to "understand" them. You just have to be able to understand parts of there affliction. You compared Misery yesterday about the catalyst that made her snap. Max definitely has a catalyst... it was his death. He was on his last edge when we first meet him, and everything accumulated into him snapping. The problem wasn't his level of crazy... it was his lack of motivation. We understand Joker's motivation because it's "chaos". electro has no real motivation. we know nothing about what his crazy head is actually thinking it's trying to do... that's the issue. Not so much the "how and why, and what kind" of crazy he is.

That still makes no sense. With Misery it was understandable why she snapped because she was obsessed with this fictional character that was killed off. It made sense. Why would Max surviving death make him snap? It's not even like anyone tried to kill him.

It wasn't that which made him snap. It was when Spider-Man "lied" to him. That's when he flipped out. Electro had a motivation, it was just stupid and made no sense. He looked like an idiot having a hissy fit. The whole Times Square scene is one of the worst scenes ever put into a CBM. Between the awful writing, dialogue and that godawful score, it's unbearable.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

That still makes no sense. With Misery it was understandable why she snapped because she was obsessed with this fictional character that was killed off. It made sense. Why would Max surviving death make him snap? It's not even like anyone tried to kill him.

It wasn't that which made him snap. It was when Spider-Man "lied" to him. That's when he flipped out. Electro had a motivation, it was just stupid and made no sense. He looked like an idiot having a hissy fit. The whole Times Square scene is one of the worst scenes ever put into a CBM. Between the awful writing, dialogue and that godawful score, it's unbearable.

again it's not important Why someone snaps (there's many levels of crazy) some you need to know because its important to the plot, others you don't. I don't think you need to understand why electro is crazy (obviously you don't and i do, it makes sense to me anyway. I've actually seen people snap at far far less) The problem is you don't know what his "crazy" is actually trying to accomplish.

Spider-Man's "lie" was just one of many things that made electro snap. I never once felt like that was the soul reason.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It wasn't the only reason, but it was a MAJOR reason. Honestly, this movie would have been better if Electro was just a muscle villain, cut out his horrible backstory, focus on Harry's descent into madness. He was a better villain, yet the movie focuses on a crappy character we ddin't like. Bad priorities.

 

[socool]

Bad priorities.

The motto for this franchise.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

It wasn't the only reason, but it was a MAJOR reason. Honestly, this movie would have been better if Electro was just a muscle villain, cut out his horrible backstory, focus on Harry's descent into madness. He was a better villain, yet the movie focuses on a crappy character we ddin't like. Bad priorities.

I think there were many major reasons..

but i agree with all else.. I called it right when this film decided to announce electro.. there's just some villains that can't carry a film to themselves. Electro works best with another villain that will compliment him as a character. He doesn't have a grand back story or history that's deep like The Osborns, Ock, Lizard, Eddie Brock, Scorpion, or even Hobgoblin, Kraven and Carnage... those characters have pretty rich story telling.. Electro, Shocker, Vulture, sandman, mysterio even and Rhino don't have the deepest stories.. they're mostly just petty crooks who either fashioned there own abilities, or fell into them. There powers or "theme" sells them more than the character development of who they were prior.

the others, you can really get a rich volume of personality and character studies from...

 

[Spider-knight]

It wasn't the only reason, but it was a MAJOR reason. Honestly, this movie would have been better if Electro was just a muscle villain, cut out his horrible backstory, focus on Harry's descent into madness. He was a better villain, yet the movie focuses on a crappy character we ddin't like. Bad priorities.

Also electro never had a purpose in the film. I'll be okay if he was Harry's muscle and I'd be okay if he did have a character but for his sakes don't make him a bad sitcom character especially with Jamie foxx.

I know people are tired of reading this but if Sony does want to keep the rights don't butcher it because this franchise is suppose to be what keeps you standing and it really isn't working with your unknown reason for butchering the film.

Like I always say, if Sony messes with the sinister six all their trust from the fans will dissapear and no one will even see another spiderman film again until the rights go back to marvel. So if you want to keep spiderman then at Least make him great because that is what you need to do. If you want to butcher something butcher the smurfs or thundercats or whatever it is you have but please don't ruin spiderman for god sakes! Do the same effort you did with James Bond because that's another franchise alot of people and you haven't even bothered to butcher it. If spiderman really is the only chance of surviving then at least put more effort into creating a good spiderman franchise instead of butchering it for no reason.

 

[Nemeres]

These really aren't tone shifts though imo. People harp on the tone way too much. I think the movie holds firm with its tone and atmosphere, there are just many different situations happening that evoke different kinds of emotion in different scenes.

I agree, it's not like the main failings of the film come from "tone". With a better constructed story that would have never been as big an issue. I'm actually afraid the studio will take this criticism too much to heart and chooses to "subdue" the fun vibe of the Spider-Man character, which this flick exploited pretty well. That whole montage when Spidey is doing his thing, saving the bullied kid, foiling the store robbery in a beanie, it's probably my favorite part of the movie. It's fun, it's cool, it's exactly what sets the Spider-Man character apart. I'd hate to see that dropped.

 

[Spider-knight]

So far there are critisms in this movie that make alot of sense and hopefully they will be good. I really think they should just try and not go overboard with the tone because now the tone. Just try and handle the tone well like with winter soldier or the first iron man movie. If the third film is going for a more natural tone I'd say go for the 500 days of summer route. I have not seen spectacular now but I'm pretty sure that's very natural as well.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Electro can work as the main villain in an arc. Mark Waid did it.

It's not the character's fault, it's the writer. Electro can be his own main villain.

 

[Spider-knight]

That's what we said. Though of electro does come back at least just try and make him a well written villain

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Electro can work as the main villain in an arc. Mark Waid did it.

It's not the character's fault, it's the writer. Electro can be his own main villain.

See i don't think so. What works in a Comic or a Cartoon doesn't always carry over to film. A huge character flaw (that's actually very important to his character) is that his potential is wasted on his stupidity. He doesn't think things through. he can't be the brains of an operation. he's not that kinda character. Thus it's hard to make him the soul focus of a 2 hr film. He needs help and a head hancho in charge

 

[Spider-knight]

Like doc ock.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

John Stewart is regarded as one of the worst Green Lanterns (and the black Green Lantern).

At the same time, he is the most recognizable because of the Justice League animated series using him and writing hands down the best take on the character thanks to smart writers like Dwayne Mcduffie. He is the reason why John was so great on the show and the comics have taken stuff from John in the show and put them in the comics.

Mr. Freeze was a joke of a villain and dead for years in comics.

Then Bruce Timm and Paul Dini revamped him when working on Batman The Animated Series and Mr. Freeze went from a D list villain to among the ranks of Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, and Penguin in Batman's rogue gallery.

It's not the character's fault for being terrible.

 

[Spider-knight]

If the franchise was still intact if Sony decides to make this franchise great you think this electro will be fixed?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

John Stewart is regarded as one of the worst Green Lanterns (and the black Green Lantern).

At the same time, he is the most recognizable because of the Justice League animated series using him and writing hands down the best take on the character thanks to smart writers like Dwayne Mcduffie. He is the reason why John was so great on the show and the comics have taken stuff from John in the show and put them in the comics.

Mr. Freeze was a joke of a villain and dead for years in comics.

Then Bruce Timm and Paul Dini revamped him when working on Batman The Animated Series and Mr. Freeze went from a D list villain to among the ranks of Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, and Penguin in Batman's rogue gallery.

It's not the character's fault for being terrible.

look, i like my characters from the comics because of who and what they are.. not every villain should be a "great villain" I like electro because of his faults and short comings... i'd hate to see him reinvented. The fact of the matter is you need villains like him in the grand scheme of things to build the better villains up. Electro shouldn't be retooled like John Stewart. One can make electro more complex.. but i like the fact he's a handicapped villain, cursed from using his own potential by his own idiocy.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

If the franchise was still intact if Sony decides to make this franchise great you think this electro will be fixed?

i don't think there's much to fix.. just make him a bigger bads lap dog and call it a day. he'd be fine. We know what we need to know about him

just maybe give him more confidence is all

 

[W/ Great Power]

These really aren't tone shifts though imo. People harp on the tone way too much. I think the movie holds firm with its tone and atmosphere, there are just many different situations happening that evoke different kinds of emotion in different scenes.

If people are gonna complain about tone in ASM2 then why not do the same for every recent MCU film? Just because ASM2s emotional impact actually sticks with the viewer, making jokes in the next scene seems like a drastic tone shift to some. Its perfectly fine in Thor though I guess, somehow.

The ending is to leave on a positive note after the Gwen situation. If it did end on Harry talking to fires about S6, then I think that would have been a more noticeable drastic shift in tone, but overall it balanced things out fairly well in the end.

I guess it depends on what the person viewing the movie finds corny. Nothing came off as corny of hokey to me in the film and the comedy hit its marks perfectly imo, Like a Spider-Man film needs to. Spider-man isn't Batman, he doesn't work with a relentlessly brooding and depressing film. There need to be both drama and comedy. Its a balance. so any drastic tone shifts people talk about are not seen by me.

I actually agree with more of your points than disagree, actually. As I said, my complaint has always been the ending of the film with the Rhino sequence. The fight with Rhino makes it seem like they're preparing you for S6 instead of focusing on TASM2 as a film on its own, which has been a complaint with a lot of people as well.

I'm an advocate of the roller coaster of emotions in this film. However, I just think that returning to the more subtle tone/emotion of the beginning of the film would have benefitted the end; it just makes the viewer guess what's going to happen in TASM3 or S6. There's much more questions if Peter has quit being Spider-Man while a sinister group of villains is forming, compared to the audience knowing he's already returned and will most likely fight a new set of villains (plus Rhino) in TASM3. I hate to sound redundant because I'm sure many members here have seen me mention similar points in another thread, but it keeps coming up again.

I agree that TASM2, for some odd reason, gets more criticism when other superhero films carry some of the same elements. It's very frustrating to see as a genuine Spider-Man fan. Furthermore, I didn't even have a problem with some of the "cheesy" or corny humor, as some people have said on here. I enjoyed it in the comics and I'm enjoying it on the big screen, too.

 

[Spider-knight]

That's great. I just want this series to get respected is all. Marc and crew really did put all the effort and andrew is a really promising actor. I just don't want them to get screwed over by a company is all

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Actually Thor: The Dark World gets a ton of criticism about it's tone and rightfully so I think.

 

[Spider-knight]

Yeah, I heard that movies tone was not so good and from what I've seen like the old man running around naked In Stone henge carrying a device on live tv I glad that I don't have an interest in watching the movie because I would be really annoyed by it.

Also anyone ever bothered that both Jane and Thor miss eachother after spending like 3 days

 

[OriginalMiles]

Spider-Man, Spider-Man. Has decent movies nowadays. Are they great? No they're not. Some might say that they suck. LOOK OOOOOUT, here comes a pointless spin-off.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

John Stewart is regarded as one of the worst Green Lanterns (and the black Green Lantern).

At the same time, he is the most recognizable because of the Justice League animated series using him and writing hands down the best take on the character thanks to smart writers like Dwayne Mcduffie. He is the reason why John was so great on the show and the comics have taken stuff from John in the show and put them in the comics.

Mr. Freeze was a joke of a villain and dead for years in comics.

Then Bruce Timm and Paul Dini revamped him when working on Batman The Animated Series and Mr. Freeze went from a D list villain to among the ranks of Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, and Penguin in Batman's rogue gallery.

It's not the character's fault for being terrible.

Well said and I agree 100%. I never understood the idea that if a character doesn't have depth in the comics then he can't/shouldn't on screen. As a writer that idea offends me. We've seen it go the other way haven't we? This series has butchered characters like Connors, Electro and Norman Osborn, undermined Uncle Bens importance to Peter, etc, so why can't the writing go in the other direction? Just keeping it in the Spidey-verse, a lot of people's opinions changed about Kraven after DeMatteis' Last Hunt storyline. This stuff ain't new. There is absolutely no excuse to have a character as anemic and uninteresting as Electro was in this film. It's just an insult to intelligent people and ultimately a big waste of time.

 

[LizardMan07]

It's kinda hard to think that someone that stupid could also invent an entire power grid from bioelectric eels.

They're kinda mutually exclusive.

Unless his lack of reasoning in a social setting is caused by some other factor, I think with the way he talks to himself, his insular outbursts, the way he walks/talks, his actions in time square, ect. It's pretty clear that factor is mental illness.

"He's just stupid" seems like really shallow reasoning to mme.

1.) Stupidity, a "lack of reason", can be attributed to the mentally ill
2.) Stupidity does not adequately explain his outbursts
3.) Stupidity and his design of the power grid are mutualky exclusive concepts. To tie them together, you need a catalyst like mental illness. Also, "he's stupid beyond belief in public settings and smart in an academic setting" is a small sign of mental illness.

In its simplest form, mental illness is the only logical explanation for the actions of the character

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Well said and I agree 100%. I never understood the idea that if a character doesn't have depth in the comics then he can't/shouldn't on screen. As a writer that idea offends me. We've seen it go the other way haven't we? This series has butchered characters like Connors, Electro and Norman Osborn, undermined Uncle Bens importance to Peter, etc, so why can't the writing go in the other direction? Just keeping it in the Spidey-verse, a lot of people's opinions changed about Kraven after DeMatteis' Last Hunt storyline. This stuff ain't new. There is absolutely no excuse to have a character as anemic and uninteresting as Electro was in this film. It's just an insult to intelligent people and ultimately a big waste of time.