lose a lot of respect for Norah Winters as a character after the Hobgoblin story in the Spider-Island: Deadly Foes one-shot? I mean, I know she still doesn't know Phil Urich is the Hobgoblin (or rather "Stalker Goblin" as he should be called) but jeez.
So I just picked up the collected "Fantastic Spider-Man" and was wondering why the hell #657 was not included in the volume. Seems like the Human Torch funeral issue would have been an obvious "part one" for this volume. And the last story is some Ghost Rider guest star story that does not seem to belong at all. WTF?
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #667: This is the official kick off issue to the SPIDER-ISLAND event; the last issue was sold as a prelude. In reality, that merely justifies the story being 8 issues long (published over six months, of course). Sales figures on July's issue #666 show that with sales over 135k, it was under 200 copies shy of where FEAR ITSELF #1 sold in March - which is a testament to Marvel's promotions as well as a sign that their "bigger" annual event may be wearing thin on readers. Dan Slott is easily telling a stronger narrative here than Matt Fraction, which he has been properly building to for months. If there is any reason why this issue is considered the "official" opening chapter, it is because
there is a huge brawl at the end of it. Picking up from the last issue, the issue begins with a delightful cheat regarding who has the bigger secret (Peter Parker or Carlie Cooper) as Jackal's scheme to flood Manhattan with Spider-Men goes underway. Not only have his genetically modified bugs caused "hundreds" of New Yorkers to develop powers akin to Spider-Man via a bite, but Jackal has organized a large collection of the worst lot of them - the ones who were criminals or ne'er do wells even before they got powers - and is having them rampage in various Spidey costumes to sow chaos and ruin the web-slinger's hard won positive reputation. While this is a nightmare for Peter Parker, it is a godsend to J. Jonah Jameson, whose "Anti-Spider" protocols as mayor are now making him look like a hero. While one may have hoped for some more three dimensional stories out of J.J. after the murder of his wife months ago, he continues to be used in fairly predictable, if not still funny, routines. The purpose of all this for Jackal is unknown - like Mr. Sinister from the X-Men franchise, he appears to get off on far out scientific experiments that usually involve a lot of pain and mayhem. Given that he more than knows Spider-Man's secret identity, it is perhaps a large scale move to "get to him". When a gang of superheroes - including Peter's allies in the Avengers and the Future Foundation - turn up to repel the mob, Spidey learns he's swung into one fight he shouldn't have.
Among those "infected" is Cooper herself, who seems intent to use her powers as a super-cop, and even wants Peter to make gadgets for her; the lengths through which Peter Parker seems to refuse to reveal his identity to Cooper despite it not making any emotional or even tactical sense remain about as amazing as the title. Seriously; Cooper not only is in favor of Spider-Man, and is enjoying having super-powers, but is completely accommodating of a superior officer in the NYPD being the vigilante Wraith. She literally has a tattoo of the web-slinger on her stomach (which, somehow, some low-rider jeans somehow manage to cover). Peter Parker was willing to unmask for Black Cat, who at the time was a temporarily reformed and highly eccentric cat-burglar (and MJ had figured it out since they were teenagers), but a perfectly sexy, smart, and eager NYPD officer is a bridge too far in the trust department. Spider-Man literally trusts Wolverine and Hawkeye with his identity more than a cop he happens to be sleeping with who does everything but cheerlead for his alter ego - at this point, needless romantic angst may be Parker's fetish, for he does so much to bring it upon himself. As for the SPIDER-ISLAND event proper, the latter half of the issue degenerates into a brawl, and while it is cute seeing virtually every Spidey costume ever designed worn by a small army of imposters (as well as a nice clone joke), Humberto Ramos does seem to show some sign of rush with his pencils here. Thanks to Carlos Cuevas' inks and Edgar Delgado's colors, however, the art still flows properly - it just isn't as strong as Stefano Caselli, or some of Ramos' prior issues on this title.
While Jackal's plan is so far crude to the point of insanity, it manages to be more entertaining thus far than FEAR ITSELF. If this issue showcases anything, it is that if Peter wants to prevail in this crisis, he'll need more than his brawn or even his closest costumed allies. Given that much of BIG TIME has been to showcase how brilliant Peter really is when properly motivated and funded, the finale could be quite an epic moment for the web-slinger. While one could call this "MAXIMUM CLONAGE done right", it also is another sign that Marvel's best events are the "mini" ones. If there is one caveat, it is that the new Madame Web (Julia Carpenter) is playing the "vague psychic figure who stands by the sidelines and talks in riddles and narration" card a bit too rigidly - even if Slott does make one joke about it. There are plenty of continuity nods for long time fans too; as solid as this issue is, better ones are likely to come once SPIDER-ISLAND reaches it's second and third acts. For the record, Kaine is now the Tarantula; not to be confused with the three assassins from Delvadia who used that name, nor Black Tarantula, who was killed in SHADOWLAND. The clone who may or may not be Ben Reilly is also known as "Spider-King" now. They're merely growling henchmen. Any Scarlet Spider mysteries will also have to wait for later chapters.
Couldn't Wolverine use his smelling/tracking power to determine which Spidey was real? That was how he figured out who Spidey was back in WOLVERINE VS. SPIDER-MAN back in the 80's.
how do people feel about Julia as the new madame web? I get that she has new powers in all.. but it seems like she's lost every little bit of her old character.. and is now practically full on madame web (at least that's the way you guy's seem to describe her), also, did jameson ever find out about the death of mattie franklin? because... didn't he raise her a bit?
I keep forgetting about that issue...I tend to OMIT it from my memory (bad pun, I know). What I hated about that was how much MJ kept telling Peter to move on from her...it all seemed too forced like Quesada was holding a gun in her back.
Let me say that Dan Slott has taken this title and has returned it back to greatness and fun, steering it out of the abyss crapfest of OMD/BND/OMIT. But, as much as I'm digging the title again, getting close to the glory days of the 70's & 80's I remember, the Carlie girlfriend thing STILL bugs me! Again, I give high praise, but this seems like a stain to me in a possible new golden age for Spidey.
On another note: Jackal. I have always liked this character since his intro in the mid-70's. But, since the 90's, he comes with a lot of baggage, I get that.
So I read Deadly Foes this week, and am still a little confused:
1. Didn't Jackal die during the Clone Saga? Now, I have been reading comics long enough to realize death can be a temporary thing. Have they said how he came back?
2. At the end of Grim Hunt (a story I didn't care for), didn't Kaine crawl out of the grave as the new Tarantula? Deadly Foes seems to contradict this.
3. The Gwens. What gives? We see the Gwen who called herself Joyce in London being killed. Now I know at some point in the 80's they decided Warren couldn't clone so the "Gwen clone" was actually someone named Joyce who was altered by DNA into being Gwen. She is then "cured" and goes about her life as Joyce. But, I thought with the Clone Saga of the 90's, it was reversed and they were really clones. And at some point Warren or a clone of Warren was living with the Gwen clone. But, now in Deadly Foes, we saw the Joyce Gwen clone was killed by an original decaying Gwen clone. So who is who. Was either one the Gwen clone of the 70's? Ot does it matter now that they took care of these Gwens in this issue?
Oh, and one other note. Besides being a longtime reader, I am a Mets fan and I appreciate the acknowledgment that the original clone saga climax took place at Shea Stadium and has been since torn down and replaced with a nicer stadium, Citifield shown in the background. One correction though. Citifield is NOT a bam box. A bam box is a stadium where it is relatively easier to hit a home run. If anything, there are some who feel the fence needs to be moved in. Citifield is more a pitcher's park. But, with its spacious outfield, it is ideal for speedy doubles & triples (please re-sign Jose Reyes at the end of the season! t.
lose a lot of respect for Norah Winters as a character after the Hobgoblin story in the Spider-Island: Deadly Foes one-shot? I mean, I know she still doesn't know Phil Urich is the Hobgoblin (or rather "Stalker Goblin" as he should be called) but jeez.
Yeah, sad times.
I was enjoying her fearless-for-the-story-attitude, but she always seemed to have a care for the human side she was reporting on. In Spider-Man's Fear Itself Mini, she resuscitates him after he fought to save their lives and even hit the Thing over the head to keep him from killing Spidey. That's a far cry from 'remaing neutral' as she claims she has to be.
Here she was about to let Randy get skewered, all "for the story", which is a big downer for me. She seemed like she was having some kind of moral dilemma after the fact, questioning herself on if pursuing the story and only the story is truly worth it, but then Hobby comes along, and that moral inquiry gets set aside.
I guess she's being set up for potential character growth and well roundedness, but I'm disappointed that she was put at that kind of starting line in her race to grow.
I'll also disappointed that she doesn't at the very least suspect Phil, given her 'keen' journalism senses and his unique ability to get Hobgoblin stories that no one else has, but whatever.
Couldn't Wolverine use his smelling/tracking power to determine which Spidey was real? That was how he figured out who Spidey was back in WOLVERINE VS. SPIDER-MAN back in the 80's.
My guess would be that they weren't in close enough proximity with each other. Spidey and Wolverine are never shown in the same panel together, not even as a background characters. And since this is, as Mayor Jameson put it, a city wide epidemic, my guess is that the Avengers and FF are spread fairly well across that city, and that the two never interacted or were close enough for Logan to be able to tell.
Either that, or the Jackal's 'gift' of spider powers somehow makes them all smell like Peter, making Wolverine unable to pinpoint the real Slim Shady.
Or maybe Peter's been trying a new cologne, a very powerful and potent one. You know, to impress Carlie. He's got the money with his new job, he can afford it.
how do people feel about Julia as the new madame web? I get that she has new powers in all.. but it seems like she's lost every little bit of her old character.. and is now practically full on madame web (at least that's the way you guy's seem to describe her), also, did jameson ever find out about the death of mattie franklin? because... didn't he raise her a bit?
I've never really followed Julia as a character, so her change to the 'all knowing' Madame Web isn't something I've had to reconcile with. My only problem with her comes from the potential scenario of 'if you knew that would happen, why didn't you stop it' in regards to a possible tragedy to come. She seems to know what's going on, but does little to directly sway it. If a proper reason is given for this approach, then kudos, I'm happy. If not, then I'll be a little put off.
I'm thinking she's using this whole scenario as training to prepare Peter for the even bigger threat of Doctor Octopus and the Sinister Six, when they finally unveil their plans, and that any 'tragedy' suffered here will only make Peter stronger and able to prevent the greater tragedy to come. But we'll see. Maybe she just gets a kick out of watching Peter suffer. It's her version of prime time television.
As for Mattie, it doesn't appear Jameson knows. Yes, he and Marla did raise her for a while, so you would think he would show some remorse over her passing, especially with Marla having clocked out recently as well, but we're not shown this and Jameson makes not reference to it. That would imply either ignorance to the fact, or off page grieving.
To be fair to Jameson, Mattie's 'funeral' with the survivors of Grim Hunt wasn't shown either. It was more or less brushed over and quickly forgotten. She was basically only used as a plot point and an expendable sacrifice for the Grim Hunt, re-introduced only so she could die, and then forgotten about. Her tomb wasn't even given a engraving on it. Only Kaine's was.
Not the best final appearance for a character, but short of bringing her back, there's not much that can be done to rectify it.
On another note: Jackal. I have always liked this character since his intro in the mid-70's. But, since the 90's, he comes with a lot of baggage, I get that.
So I read Deadly Foes this week, and am still a little confused:
1. Didn't Jackal die during the Clone Saga? Now, I have been reading comics long enough to realize death can be a temporary thing. Have they said how he came back?
2. At the end of Grim Hunt (a story I didn't care for), didn't Kaine crawl out of the grave as the new Tarantula? Deadly Foes seems to contradict this.
3. The Gwens. What gives? We see the Gwen who called herself Joyce in London being killed. Now I know at some point in the 80's they decided Warren couldn't clone so the "Gwen clone" was actually someone named Joyce who was altered by DNA into being Gwen. She is then "cured" and goes about her life as Joyce. But, I thought with the Clone Saga of the 90's, it was reversed and they were really clones. And at some point Warren or a clone of Warren was living with the Gwen clone. But, now in Deadly Foes, we saw the Joyce Gwen clone was killed by an original decaying Gwen clone. So who is who. Was either one the Gwen clone of the 70's? Ot does it matter now that they took care of these Gwens in this issue?
1. The last I saw of the Jackal was him falling off a building and going splat. I presume the issue of his 'survival', assuming he isn't just another clone of himself, will be brought up/revealed later.
2. Grim Hunt did show Kaine crawling out of his grave with the text box saying 'Rise Tarantula' but that was it. It never showed him leave his grave or do anything other than dig out of it.
Deadly Foes, then, picks up immediately after Kaine's emergence from his tomb.
3. I figured it was more or less them tying up the loose ends from the Clone Saga that had been lingering for a while now, and that was all it served to be. Well, that and a prelude of the Jackal's activities before issue 667.
First, I agree, I don't like this sudden development in Norah's character, one of the few (or maybe only) characters I care about that was introduced during BND.
1. The last I saw of the Jackal was him falling off a building and going splat. I presume the issue of his 'survival', assuming he isn't just another clone of himself, will be brought up/revealed later.
2. Grim Hunt did show Kaine crawling out of his grave with the text box saying 'Rise Tarantula' but that was it. It never showed him leave his grave or do anything other than dig out of it.
Deadly Foes, then, picks up immediately after Kaine's emergence from his tomb.
3. I figured it was more or less them tying up the loose ends from the Clone Saga that had been lingering for a while now, and that was all it served to be. Well, that and a prelude of the Jackal's activities before issue 667.
So who were these Gwen's? I am assuming they retcon the original Gwen clone (70's clone saga) into thinking she was really Joyce. Then who was the Gwen in the 90's clone saga?
OK, some other issues I thought of:
1. Deadly Foes shows that Jackal knows that it was Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin that killed Gwen. But as we know, Osborn backed the whole 90's clone mess for Jackal. Wouldn't the Jackal have some vendetta on Osborn?
2. Deadly Foes also let's us know Jackal knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man. How does this jibe with the magical re-masking?*
*Told you this whole editorial mandate for a single Spidey is more trouble than it's worth!
Although, I do believe that it was Peter that tried to prevent the Jackal from falling to his death, shooting out a webline to catch him, only missing in the process. And I believe a thought box reveals that Peter felt like the Jackal wanted Peter to miss.
So who knows.
Yes, Kaine did come out of the grave looking more spider than human, having extra eyes, but he did not have extra arms (or if he did have them at the end of Grim Hunt, they were still buried underground and not depicted with the art). Additionally, as Jackal explains it in Deadly Foes, Kaine's genetic makeup apparently lets himself not only regenerate from fatal wounds, but also reconstructs himself to be more spider like each time, through "secondary mutations".
At least, I think that's what he said. Let me go check really quick.
*runs to issue to re-read it*
Yep, it is.
So who were these Gwen's? I am assuming they retcon the original Gwen clone (70's clone saga) into thinking she was really Joyce. Then who was the Gwen in the 90's clone saga?
Okay, for that I'm going to have to go back and re-read my 90s issues, and I don't have the time at the moment. I can't give you specifics, I just remember there being one or two that got away and adapted to new lives.
1. Deadly Foes shows that Jackal knows that it was Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin that killed Gwen. But as we know, Osborn backed the whole 90's clone mess for Jackal. Wouldn't the Jackal have some vendetta on Osborn?
2. Deadly Foes also let's us know Jackal knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man. How does this jibe with the magical re-masking?*
*Told you this whole editorial mandate for a single Spidey is more trouble than it's worth!
1. I thought that it was revealed that Osborn backed the clone saga secretly, manipulating the Jackal into believing that Reilly was the original, not Peter. From what I understand/remember, the Jackal did not know his own strings were being pulled. Mastermind trumping mastermind as it were.
I'd assume he'd have a vendetta, but maybe he's so wrapped up in his clones to care, or maybe Osborn is just small potatoes in his eyes next to the man that let the original die by failing to save her. Maybe he sees Peter as truly responsible for involving her in his life, sort of a 'she was going to be killed eventually due to Peter, Osborn just happened to be the guy to do it, but it was Peter's fault all along' outlook.
2. Doesn't the magical re-masking only work so long as people don't see Peter unmasked? Like they keeping drawing blanks until they witness him as Spider-Man, and then all the memories come back? If so, then wouldn't witnessing clones of Peter Parker/Spider-Man for years be enough to break that block?
Okay, for that I'm going to have to go back and re-read my 90s issues, and I don't have the time at the moment. I can't give you specifics, I just remember there being one or two that got away and adapted to new lives.
1. I thought that it was revealed that Osborn backed the clone saga secretly, manipulating the Jackal into believing that Reilly was the original, not Peter. From what I understand/remember, the Jackal did not know his own strings were being pulled. Mastermind trumping mastermind as it were.
I'd assume he'd have a vendetta, but maybe he's so wrapped up in his clones to care, or maybe Osborn is just small potatoes in his eyes next to the man that let the original die by failing to save her. Maybe he sees Peter as truly responsible for involving her in his life, sort of a 'she was going to be killed eventually due to Peter, Osborn just happened to be the guy to do it, but it was Peter's fault all along' outlook.
2. Doesn't the magical re-masking only work so long as people don't see Peter unmasked? Like they keeping drawing blanks until they witness him as Spider-Man, and then all the memories come back? If so, then wouldn't witnessing clones of Peter Parker/Spider-Man for years be enough to break that block?
On a side note, anyone notice how Marvel can't come up with new story titles and keeps re-using the old ones, acting like it is a new name? Deadly Foes of Spider-Man was a miniseries from the early 90s. Fear Itself was a Spider-Man graphic novel from I wanna say the 80s...
I wouldn't have thought much into it, yet this new Spider-Island really smells a lot like Maximum Clonage...the only difference is in MC Jackal just wanted to replace everyone with clones...now he just wants everyone to have spider powers. They split Spidercide's role into two parts played by Kaine and this "Spider-King"
Feels more like Maximum Carnage to me. Total chaos all over Manhattan, dozens of cameos from other heroes, two symbiotes to show up, Spider-Man left beaten up...
Feels more like Maximum Carnage to me. Total chaos all over Manhattan, dozens of cameos from other heroes, two symbiotes to show up, Spider-Man left beaten up...
Feels more like Maximum Carnage to me. Total chaos all over Manhattan, dozens of cameos from other heroes, two symbiotes to show up, Spider-Man left beaten up...
I'm enjoying what I've seen so far and despite my previous feelings I'm not minding Carlie at all. I think for the past while I've been accepting her since she hasn't felt forced or obnoxious as of late. I'm eager to see Flash and Brock's role in all this craziness. One thing is, like others have mentioned, Julia is acting rather cold. It's a little odd and all, but I hope she'll be fleshed out more at a later point.
I don't think you'll see much of a change in Julia's personality. Slott seems to be trying to recapture the old Madame Web mysterious mojo from back in the day. Honestly I think it would be cool if she ended up going evil at some point and became a major adversary for Spidey.
I don't think she'd ever go "evil"... she's just become the Uatu of the Spider-Verse... showing up when major **** is going to happen, but does nothing about it... t:
Me personally, I'm not making the comparison at all - I hated Maximum Carnage. I think the only real comparison one could make is that it's a Spidey-centric event that features a ton of guest stars. If that's the case, why not compare Gang War 1 and 2 to Spider-Island as well.
There's already a few big differences between MC and SI. First, the antagonists are not lunatics that have no agenda other than to create "carnage". Even though it has yet to be revealed, it appears so far that this is a calculated attack with a purpose. Now I could end up being wrong in the end but all signs point to the contrary thus far.
Secondly, and this is the big one - this event is not going to be won by Spider-Man. For the next few months I'd expect to see a whole lot of web-swinging Peter Parker instead of Spider-Man. Slott has established early that with Spider-Man in costume, he literally blends into the rest of the city. Spidey already got his ass handed to him by Carol, Grimm and Iron Fist. This is a battle he will have to lead and win as Peter Parker, disgraced photographer turned genius inventor. JJJ will have to be forced at the end of the day to pin a medal on Pete's chest after what they've recently been through.
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