The Avengers The Avengers = Iron Man 3?

[knowsbleed]

You're speaking as someone who has not seen his Captain America. If this is the reason people feel this way, wait til Captain America comes out. Things will look different when Cap has a film and we're not caught up in IM2 hype, which I think is a major part of this RDJ love fest.

You're right... I have not seen his Capt America. But I have seen him in other roles and he did not have the gravitas in those roles that a seasoned actor like RDJ has displayed before. Now... acting experience is on RDJ's side, of course. We'll just have to wait and see him wearing the red, white and blue.

Now... I'm pretty damn sure that Marvel is going to guage how much of a leadership role he will play in The Avengers upon how successful Capt America turns out to be. He could very well likely be the Cyclops of this franchise.

 

[Raiden]

My beef is that I don't see Evans having as much charisma/delivery potential as RDJ does. The camera will LOVE RDJ while he is playing Stark/IM.

Mayhaps FF has forever scarred me as I cannot see Evans as anything but a smartass, anti-teamplayer.

I've seen Evans in other movies besides FF (Cellular & Push), and although he has now ingrained as Johnny Storm, I do think he has the acting chops to pull off the performance as Steve Rogers. One of the strengths of Evans is that he has good screen presence, and while I did have some reservations about him in the beginning, now I think Marvel did the right thing by casting him, because he does have what it takes to not be overshadowed (too much) in the same screen as RDJ. I do worry about Hemsworth, though; however, Hemsworth was able to milk his scene in those 5 minutes he shown up in Star Trek, so I won't rule him out just yet.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You're right... I have not seen his Capt America. But I have seen him in other roles and he did not have the gravitas in those roles that a seasoned actor like RDJ has displayed before. Now... acting experience is on RDJ's side, of course. We'll just have to wait and see him wearing the red, white and blue.

Now... I'm pretty damn sure that Marvel is going to guage how much of a leadership role he will play in The Avengers upon how successful Capt America turns out to be. He could very well likely be the Cyclops of this franchise.

We can't really gage Evans on his abilities as Cap until we see Cap. Marvel took a long time to make the casting decision, so I think he passed. I don't think Evans has been asked to do anything like Cap, but that doesn't mean he can't. I saw some talent in Sunshine.

I don't think BO will determine what Marvel does in Avengers in regard to Cap vs Iron Man as leader/main. The script for Avengers and shooting are set to begin BEFORE Cap is released. Avengers is right now set to shoot in January, and Cap comes out in July. The film will be way past shooting. Marvel has already made their bet on Evans as Cap, and it will be make or break. We'll see, but BO won't have any bearing on what happens in the Avengers' script.

 

[knowsbleed]

Stop making sense damnit.


Can you really honestly think that BO will not affect any possible rewrites/revisions with Disney being the big boss?

 

[Chewy]

BO will not have any affect on rewrites, this will have finished filming before Thor and Captain America are released

 

[Spider-Fan]

You'd have to invest a lot in reshooting the movie to slant toward Stark assuming the movie was already filmed for Cap (shooting will have wrapped before Cap is released, so you'd have to do major reshooting to change it like that).. I know films like DD and SM3 have done it, but it is still a large investment, and for that to happen, Cap would have to REALLY disappoint or bomb, and I don't see it happening. July has been a friendly month recently for comic films, and Cap does have name recognition (more than Iron Man had pre-Iron Man film), and unlike the Hulk, it doesn't have a popular bad film to stain its rep before release. Plus, this is the last film before Avengers, and I see the hype behind this being greater than TIH for that reason (Avenger is in the title for a reason...get people to realize this is a lead in for Avengers).

I think Cap definitely surpasses 200 mil domestic easy, and if the film is IM good, could make 300 mil. I think it hits 200 mil regardless though, which I think Marvel/Disney would be happy with.

 

[Rock Sexton]

That's why it is essential to bring back Norton and utilize his ability to cancel out the egos. If you relegate Banner to an extended cameo with nothing following the first act (if that) beyond a final battle appearance, it will no doubt be an Iron Man show. It's going to be tough to pull off but at least you can balance some out the egos if Evans does enough in the Cap movie and Norton is given a significant time. Now there is the issue of how Ed will mesh with Wheldon knowing the studio will be heavily hands on. The script better be phenomenal otherwise I don't see him back.

I kind of agree with this. Stark vs. everyone else on screen is a complete mismatch naturally. Having a guy like Norton does indeed help to balance things out.

 

[jmc]

I don't think it will be marketed as IM3, either. The biggest draw for the film is not Iron Man. The draw is the fact it is the first crossover film of this magnitude. They will market this as a team film. THAT is Avengers greatest selling point. Not just 1 performance. Iron Man will be a BIG marketing point, but so will Cap, Thor, etc. We'll prob get like 5 posters for the film. One for each main character.

Assuming the general public is going to give a damn about the other characters in the first place. Hulk wasn't exactly loved, if both Thor and Cap Am are not embraced by audiences what happens then? I don't think you'd have much option but to market it toward the Iron Man side of things. The crossover is a draw for comic fans, not necessarily for the averages Joe's who make up the majority of the audience, not yet anyway given we have no idea how Thor and Cap Am are going to be received.

 

[baerrtt]

^
You're bang on correct JMC in that so far only Iron Man (and inevitably it's soon to be released sequel) is the only shared universe movie so far that GENERAL audiences have actually given a damn about because the same amount of 'love' certainly wasn't there for the Hulk movie that summer.

Also the success of SHERLOCK HOLMES means that RDJ is of right now the biggest star in that yet to be completed ensemble cast and if CAP/THOR go the way of TIH at the box-office.....

Then again the STAR WARS comparison I would use is ROTJ which by the time it went into production Harrison Ford had done the first INDY movie and as a result had become a much bigger deal than the rest of the cast especially Mark Hamill and yet to the credit of Lucas the film belongs to Luke Skywalker.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yes, the GA has yet to care about Thor or Cap. But funny, fact: neither has a film yet. You guys are just basing this IM bias off the fact there is no other point of comparison, which is a flawed way to do it. Wait until we have Thor and Cap films before you begin talking about their exit stage left. Though Avengers will be filmed before we have Cap's fim released, and likely wrapping near Thor's.

 

[FrostBite]

Yes, the GA has yet to care about Thor or Cap. But funny, fact: neither has a film yet. You guys are just basing this IM bias off the fact there is no other point of comparison, which is a flawed way to do it. Wait until we have Thor and Cap films before you begin talking about their exit stage left. Though Avengers will be filmed before we have Cap's fim released, and likely wrapping near Thor's.

I can guarantee Iron Man will be Marvel's Batman as far as movies go. Both are the characters people wish they could be. Playboys, buff, arrogant, drama filled, confident, and in RDJ's case, humor which is a powerful thing to sway the audience on your side. He steals scenes he's in because of it, and he'll continue to do so in Avengers I can assure you. They've even got the whole "I don't have real powers!" that everyone seems to lap up.

There's something about a Norse God, a Hulking beast, and a WWII Veteran trapped in ice that the GA just isn't going to love as much despite name recognition. There's a lot of depressing things to deal with there. Each of them outcasts. They just aren't the characters people wish they were.

I am not saying the whole "team up" won't be a factor in driving people to the seats... as it will be. But RDJ will have more influence than people will want to admit.

 

[Dark Raven]

Also, audiences love James Bond, a suave, quick-witted playboy type who relies on his wits and the occasional gadgets. Tony Stark is right in that mould. He will be more fun than Captain America, who has the weight of responsibility on his shoulders or Thor, who could seem too otherworldly, while Hulk is just unrelatable to the general public. Iron Man gets the girls, the fast cars, the gadgets, the parties, the money, the fame etc. Now tell me who you would want to be out of that group of heroes?

 

[Dark Raven]

Double post

 

[FrostBite]

Also, audiences love James Bond, a suave, quick-witted playboy type who relies on his wits and the occasional gadgets. Tony Stark is right in that mould. He will be more fun than Captain America, who has the weight of responsibility on his shoulders or Thor, who could seem too otherworldly, while Hulk is just unrelatable to the general public. Iron Man gets the girls, the fast cars, the gadgets, the parties, the money, the fame etc. Now tell me who you would want to be out of that group of heroes?

Exactly, this standard stock character of the suave playboy who doesn't play by the rules, but gets what he wants is just... popular. Not saying he shouldn't be, but it's just the truth.

Cap will be a boy scout, Thor will probably disagree with the affairs of man and have to "come around" and Hulk, no one wants to admit they have inner demons, no one wants to be the guy on the run or lash out and hurt people.

GA generally for action movies such as super hero flicks, wants to be the guy who gets **** done with little to no effort. In Iron Man, the terrorists don't break his leg, fingers, or anything. They dunk his head in a tank over and over. While still technically torture, and is probably excruciating, he seems to come out unscathed. Builds a super weapon right in front of their cameras putting braces on his leg and everything and somehow is infinitely smarter than terrorists who go "Oh yeah, don't worry that is definitely a missile." Flys into a military zone, blows up two jets no repercussions. Fights a huge stronger robot, beats it in a matter of minutes. Gets to bang the reporter who despises him the same night as she insults him to his face, and goes out gambling with super models the night of his award ceremony. Even when he finds out his is responsible for the persecution of innocents, he goes over there and cleans up that mess with little to no problem what-so-ever, almost taking out an entire guerrilla force. In the sequel he's going to take down robot after robot (probably also showing up War Machine) with quick quips, defeat his rival, his villain, and give the finger to congress and come out unscathed. All with no powers and a suit. This is the guy people are going to want to be.

Hulk on the other hand has trouble with one man (Ross,) and has hissy fits that kill people that Banner has to live with.

Cap is going to be frozen and wake up 60 years later with people he knows and loves aging and dying, has to play by the rules, and is a general stick in the mud to Tony's partier attitude.

Thor will probably be disinterested and looking down his nose on mortals at first.

These really aren't the people that the GA is going to generally care for when put on the same screen with the "ideal man." Now, does that mean it won't create some awesome team conflict? You bet your butts it will (hopefully,) but it also leaves the GA siding with Tony who just has less trouble than everyone else.

It's like RDJ's other franchise right now. You don't see anyone really going "Aw man, Watson is the ****." No, they want to side with RDJ's character. Brilliant, funny, handsome, charming, gets crap done with unbelievable odds.

 

[FaT_tONle]

People are forgetting that RDJ is HIGHLY unlikely to return for more Avengers films beyond the first one, so it would make sense maxing out his screen time and maybe setting up IM3 while they are at it. They aren't going to recast the character until a good 7-8 years after his last movie as Stark IMO. Not saying that makes it right, but it is one of the reasons why I would make him the featured guy along with Hulk. This isn't going to end up like Wolverine where you are getting two trilogies in each. Maybe he'd come back who knows, but he'd be in his early 50's and already looks it now compared to other stars his age.

 

[jmc]

Yes, the GA has yet to care about Thor or Cap. But funny, fact: neither has a film yet. You guys are just basing this IM bias off the fact there is no other point of comparison, which is a flawed way to do it. Wait until we have Thor and Cap films before you begin talking about their exit stage left. Though Avengers will be filmed before we have Cap's fim released, and likely wrapping near Thor's.

It's also flawed to assume everything is just going to fall into place. It's perfectly reasonable to question what is the contingency if Thor and Cap Am don't resonate, in fact fans had better hope Marvel has a contingency marketing plan coz I'd hate to think the studio execs are going in with the mindset that they're gonna strike gold each time. Gotta be realistic here, Marvel's record is 1-1 at the moment, if Iron Man is the only franchise that's getting bums on seats you've gotta seriously wonder whether Marvel can avoid heavily promoting Avengers as being Iron Man centric, almost making it a de facto Iron Man 3.

 

[FrostBite]

People are forgetting that RDJ is HIGHLY unlikely to return for more Avengers films beyond the first one, so it would make sense maxing out his screen time and maybe setting up IM3 while they are at it. They aren't going to recast the character until a good 7-8 years after his last movie as Stark IMO. Not saying that makes it right, but it is one of the reasons why I would make him the featured guy along with Hulk. This isn't going to end up like Wolverine where you are getting two trilogies in each. Maybe he'd come back who knows, but he'd be in his early 50's and already looks it now compared to other stars his age.

Nah, people still find him handsome, charming, etc. I'm sure he'd come back for more if the first is of high quality.

Though, this is assuming there is more than one Avengers film, of which, I feel is unlikely even if it's successful. (I don't know why I find it unlikely.)

 

[Spider-Fan]

It's also flawed to assume everything is just going to fall into place. It's perfectly reasonable to question what is the contingency if Thor and Cap Am don't resonate, in fact fans had better hope Marvel has a contingency marketing plan coz I'd hate to think the studio execs are going in with the mindset that they're gonna strike gold each time. Gotta be realistic here, Marvel's record is 1-1 at the moment, if Iron Man is the only franchise that's getting bums on seats you've gotta seriously wonder whether Marvel can avoid heavily promoting Avengers as being Iron Man centric, almost making it a de facto Iron Man 3.

Avengers will begin filming BEFORE Thor or Cap are released. It won't be a defacto IM3 because they won't have Thor or Cap's BO returns by then. They'd have to invest a lot in re-shooting or make it IM3 right when they start filming.

Everyone here is assuming or panicking that Thor and Cap will fail. Thor and Cap don't have the stigma that TIH had before it was released. We have no basis to determine their BO potential. We don't know how good the films will be nor how they'll measure up to IM. Assuming failure right now is flawed. What if Thor makes 400 million dollars, IM2 craps out around the same numbers IM had, and Cap only 200? Should Marvel then re-shoot Avengers with Thor as the main character? I don't think so, I think even if Thor was most profitable, he should be the 3rd biggest role of the main 3 (with Stark as #2 and Cap #1). But, no one is considering this possibility. Just considering the possibility that Iron Man is more awesome than Cap or Thor are.

Iron Man is the only film series we have for a basis of BO potential (I exclude Hulk because he had a film prior to his film and we saw his BO potential before that). No one had this love for Iron Man in the GA PRIOR to the first Iron Man film. The Iron Man film made Iron Man relevant in the public eye. I still argue Cap has more popularity entering his first movie than Iron Man did, but that doesn't mean the movie will make more. I do think it means Cap has the potential to do just as well as IM1 did. Everyone is condemning Evans' Cap and declaring Cap's film as a lesser series when we have no real basis for it at this time, and I think you guys are making flawed arguments. I understand we're all hyped for IM2, and this is probably a big reason people are putting Iron Man on this pedestal right now, but let's not forget, we have no basis to condemn Cap or Thor, either. We won't know til their releases.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This was posted over in the Captain America forum:

http://www.pajiba.com/trade_news/ne...-avengers-and-a-captain-america-exclusive.php

I want to call attention to this portion of the article:

As for the exclusive news, Pajiba is fortunate enough to have a source close to the project who has some interesting info on The First Avenger: Captain America. Apparently Whedon’s role in the Marvel film universe may expand even further, as he’s also likely to be tasked with doing a polish on the Captain America script. At this point, we know the general news about Captain America — Steve Rogers (played by Chris Evans) undergoes a secret super soldier experiment during WWII and becomes Captain America. During a battle with The Red Skull (played by Hugo Weaving), he ends up frozen in ice, only to re-emerge during the modern era (where, presumably, he’ll eventually meet up with Tony Stark, Nick Fury, Thor, and the rest of the gang). The nature of Whedon’s script polish (on a screenplay originally written by Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely) is unknown, but it makes me rest a little easier, since this project has seemed like more of an x-factor than the others.

So, Whedon also might be doing polish work on Cap. The man directing and writing Avengers will be doing work on the Cap script. The film that is leading into his film. Anyone still think Avengers will be IM3? I think this would indicate that Cap is the #1 (assuming that part of the story is true).

 

[Raiden]

This was posted over in the Captain America forum:

http://www.pajiba.com/trade_news/ne...-avengers-and-a-captain-america-exclusive.php

I want to call attention to this portion of the article:



So, Whedon also might be doing polish work on Cap. The man directing and writing Avengers will be doing work on the Cap script. The film that is leading into his film. Anyone still think Avengers will be IM3? I think this would indicate that Cap is the #1 (assuming that part of the story is true).

If Whedon gets to rewrite Cap's script, I have more faith that it will tie-in nicely with The Avengers. Since Marvel has The First Avenger title under Capt. America, I think it is important that both movies are associated somehow.

 

[Dark Raven]

Started new thread

 

[jmc]

Avengers will begin filming BEFORE Thor or Cap are released. It won't be a defacto IM3 because they won't have Thor or Cap's BO returns by then. They'd have to invest a lot in re-shooting or make it IM3 right when they start filming.

Never said anything about re shoots. I'm talking purely from a marketing perspective.

Everyone here is assuming or panicking that Thor and Cap will fail. Thor and Cap don't have the stigma that TIH had before it was released. We have no basis to determine their BO potential. We don't know how good the films will be nor how they'll measure up to IM. Assuming failure right now is flawed. What if Thor makes 400 million dollars, IM2 craps out around the same numbers IM had, and Cap only 200? Should Marvel then re-shoot Avengers with Thor as the main character? I don't think so, I think even if Thor was most profitable, he should be the 3rd biggest role of the main 3 (with Stark as #2 and Cap #1). But, no one is considering this possibility. Just considering the possibility that Iron Man is more awesome than Cap or Thor are.

Again, no-ones talking re-shoots at the moment. IM2 is gonna do well financially regardless of how good it is, that's a given, Thor and Cap Am could also well do great critically and at the box office, won't argue that, in which case Avengers is going to sell itself. But if the latter don't perform what's gonna happen then?

Iron Man is the only film series we have for a basis of BO potential (I exclude Hulk because he had a film prior to his film and we saw his BO potential before that). No one had this love for Iron Man in the GA PRIOR to the first Iron Man film. The Iron Man film made Iron Man relevant in the public eye. I still argue Cap has more popularity entering his first movie than Iron Man did, but that doesn't mean the movie will make more. I do think it means Cap has the potential to do just as well as IM1 did. Everyone is condemning Evans' Cap and declaring Cap's film as a lesser series when we have no real basis for it at this time, and I think you guys are making flawed arguments. I understand we're all hyped for IM2, and this is probably a big reason people are putting Iron Man on this pedestal right now, but let's not forget, we have no basis to condemn Cap or Thor, either. We won't know til their releases.

No ones condemning anybody and no-ones putting anyone on pedestals, it's a reasonable question to ask what are Marvel's plans in case things don't fall into place. It's one thing to say a character will resonate with the public, but you've also gotta look at the flip side too, in spite of how good the film is it might not. If only one of the four main characters in Avengers are liked by the cinematic audience will there be any choice to promote it as an Iron Man heavy film?

 

[KangConquers]

I think Thor is a lock to do well...it has great buzz and the best date of the year next year.

Cap I'm worried about; it has to overcome major stigma (read: the 6.5 billion people in the world who are not american) and has an unproven cast and an inconsistent director. The one thing Cap does have going for it over Thor is an A-list character, where as Thor has to overcome being slightly less known to the general population.

That said, Hulk was much more well known than Iron Man, and we saw how that turned out...

 

[Spider-Fan]

Hulk also had a movie prior to Iron Man, and that film was a financial failure and critical failure. Cap doesn't have this disadvantage.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No ones condemning anybody and no-ones putting anyone on pedestals, it's a reasonable question to ask what are Marvel's plans in case things don't fall into place. It's one thing to say a character will resonate with the public, but you've also gotta look at the flip side too, in spite of how good the film is it might not. If only one of the four main characters in Avengers are liked by the cinematic audience will there be any choice to promote it as an Iron Man heavy film?

You say no one is putting anyone on a pedistel, yet this thread is full of no one can act with RDJ quotes. That is everyone putting him on a pedistel.

Even if Cap and Thor don't do as well as expected, I think making Avengers seem like IM3 is a bad idea. Once they find out it is not, that is where you can get backlash. Hulk looked action heavy, but when people saw Ang Lee's Hulk and it was far from it, the film bombed. I think they'll focus on it being a crossover, regardless of Cap's or Thor's BO. I don't see them failing, either.