The Avengers vs X-Men: Days of Future Past

Which Event movie did you like best?

  • The Avengers

  • X-Men: Days of Future Past


Results are only viewable after voting.
Yeah, I agree. Fassbender and Mcavoy are two of the best, but I just didn't care. Not slamming their acting. Just wasn't invested into the story and characters here. Really dug First Class too, so it sucks for me to say that.

The Quicksilver stuff was fun, but that was probably the highlight set piece of the whole film. Why that guy wasn't distracting and messing with Sentinels at the end I'll never know.
 
Yeah, I agree. Fassbender and Mcavoy are two of the best, but I just didn't care. Not slamming their acting. Just wasn't invested into the story and characters here. Really dug First Class too, so it sucks for me to say that.

The Quicksilver stuff was fun, but that was probably the highlight set piece of the whole film. Why that guy wasn't distracting and messing with Sentinels at the end I'll never know.

You know what, I hadn't even thought about that. Why wouldn't a guy like Quicksilver have been there in the end? I assume you're referring to the future. When I brought it up about when they were stuck in RFK Stadium I was told it was probably because he was a kid and they didn't want him going missing from his parents .... or something to that effect. The explanations seemed mostly conjecture though.
 
You know what, I hadn't even thought about that. Why wouldn't a guy like Quicksilver have been there in the end? I assume you're referring to the future. When I brought it up about when they were stuck in RFK Stadium I was told it was probably because he was a kid and they didn't want him going missing from his parents .... or something to that effect. The explanations seemed mostly conjecture though.

Either time actually. If he was at the Stadium he probably would have helped out quite a bit and made for some better action beats. Like wise with the future, I'd imagine they could have done some cool things with the Sentinels having to counter high speed.

He's another character that is close to being a lil too convenient of a problem solver for any situation. Don't see how they could stop him. Which kinda makes me want to see how they would do it more.
 
I just wanted one good fight in the past with the sentinels. I knew that nimrods would kick the futures hiney, but I thought maybe they could get in a fight and show how the mutants fared compared to the original sentinels. I mean we got magneto controlled sentinels throw beast and punch bone clawed wolverine. I don't mean this as an insult to anyone that was happy with the film, but that was something I was hoping to see and didn't. It almost felt like a cope out to me with magneto gaining control of the sentinels at the end. I know the point of the movie was to show mutants in a better light to avoid the need for the sentinels, but would it of hurt to have some mutants actually fight the 6 or 8 they had made that went rogue or something? I dunno, I guess I'm just action hungry for people with powers.
 
If they gave us one decent sentinel battle in the past like you mentioned, I probably wouldn't be as tough on the future ones.
 
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I said the exact same thing and all he kept telling me was "Well they spent the first 10mins explaining .... "

It didn't take 10mins to show Kitty could send someone back in time. It was swift and convenient to the story - a classic DEM. The rest of the plan that Charles and Eric laid out to Wolvie is what took up the bulk of that time.

If it occurred late in the story to solve an otherwise unsolvable problem, yes. That doesn't happen in DoFP. In DoFP, it occurs right at the very beginning of the story after a short action prologue. We find out the exact nature of her powers during the exposition scene setting up the plot of the film. If it happens at the beginning, it is not a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is a solution. What part of that don't you understand?

Kitty's powers go against anything we've come to know of her in previous incarnations on screen. She simply has them in DOFP to make it convenient for Singer to send everyone back so he can retcon all movies after X2.

The previous films don't matter. DoFP isn't resolving a plot setup in those films (such as the case with the LOTR films). DoFP has its own separate, distinct plot. Furthermore, it is years after the last time we saw her. DoFP didn't just pick up where TLS left off.

That being said ...... let me paint the picture again. The movie opens up with invincible Sentinels about to kill the last remaining X-Men. Out of Nowhere Kitty is able to send someone back in time to save the day. What do you call that? Yeah ......

Wrong. They are attacking one small band of X-Men. None of the leaders (Xavier, Magneto, Wolverine, Storm) are even there.

And again, that's just a short prologue to set up the environment. The actual plot of the film isn't set-up until the next scene in China.
 
If it occurred late in the story to solve an otherwise unsolvable problem, yes. That doesn't happen in DoFP. In DoFP, it occurs right at the very beginning of the story after a short action prologue. We find out the exact nature of her powers during the exposition scene setting up the plot of the film. If it happens at the beginning, it is not a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is a solution. What part of that don't you understand?

A DEM is a solution .... what part of that don't YOU understand. In order to circumvent the fate of the invincible Sentinels, Kitty spontaneously knows how to send Logan back to save the day.

The previous films don't matter. DoFP isn't resolving a plot setup in those films (such as the case with the LOTR films). DoFP has its own separate, distinct plot. Furthermore, it is years after the last time we saw her. DoFP didn't just pick up where TLS left off.

That plot is to go back in time, which nullifies every movie after X2 aside from XFC .... you know ALL the movies Singer wasn't involved with. Hell he even killed off most of the XFC members. If you think that wasn't done on purpose then I don't know what to tell you. He didn't draw inspiration from any of those other films which means he was purposely trying to avoid/retcon them.

Wrong. They are attacking one small band of X-Men. None of the leaders (Xavier, Magneto, Wolverine, Storm) are even there.

And again, that's just a short prologue to set up the environment. The actual plot of the film isn't set-up until the next scene in China.

They're attacking a small band and then the main group, which is how Kitty ends up where Logan is. I mean c'mon now. I'm not splitting hairs here over the difference of a mere couple of minutes.
 
If they gave us one decent sentinel battle in the past like you mentioned, I probably wouldn't be as tough on the future ones.

I would like to think that mutants could take six of the non adaptable (pre-mystique) ones.
 
Rock Sexton said:
A DEM is a solution .... what part of that don't YOU understand. In order to circumvent the fate of the invincible Sentinels, Kitty spontaneously knows how to send Logan back to save the day.

She uses it twice. Once to send Bishop back at the beginning to save them from the attack in the prologue. That doesn't count because it is the very first sequence in the film.

Then she does it again to send Logan back and it pays off at the end of the film. It is not DEM because it is not sudden and expected, which is required BY DEFINITION. It occurs at the END of the film EXACTLY how they tell us it will happen at the BEGINNING of the film.

That plot is to go back in time, which nullifies every movie after X2 aside from XFC .... you know ALL the movies Singer wasn't involved with. Hell he even killed off most of the XFC members. If you think that wasn't done on purpose then I don't know what to tell you. He didn't draw inspiration from any of those other films which means he was purposely trying to avoid/retcon them.

Doesn't matter if it was on purpose or not. The story of DoFP stands on its own. What TLS and Origins did have no bearing on the quality of DoFP.

They're attacking a small band and then the main group, which is how Kitty ends up where Logan is. I mean c'mon now. I'm not splitting hairs here over the difference of a mere couple of minutes.

Nope. The first attack is the first sequence of the film. The second attack occurs at the climax of the film. They are not separated by a couple of minutes. More like a couple of hours.
 
Now, I will admit that it is awfully convenient that they have with them the two people (three if you count Charles) that have the exact powers needed for them to change the past. But those types of coincidences are no stranger and in most cases necessary to basic storytelling. It isn't any more convenient than Steve Rogers happening to be the one guy that the Super Soldier Serum works on before the creator is murdered or Tony Stark being imprisoned next to the one guy who can save his life.

But this has nothing to do with what is being suggested here. I will repeat it one more time for anybody who doesn't care to read through the whole conversation. They explain what they are going to do at the beginning of the film by sending Logan back through time and what they hope to accomplish by doing this. Then they spend practically the whole rest of the film working to carry out that goal. Then they succeed and it changes the Future exactly how they hoped it would. That's not deus ex machina. That's a logical conclusion.
 
Now, I will admit that it is awfully convenient that they have with them the two people (three if you count Charles) that have the exact powers needed for them to change the past. But those types of coincidences are no stranger and in most cases necessary to basic storytelling. It isn't any more convenient than Steve Rogers happening to be the one guy that the Super Soldier Serum works on before the creator is murdered or Tony Stark being imprisoned next to the one guy who can save his life.

But this has nothing to do with what is being suggested here. I will repeat it one more time for anybody who doesn't care to read through the whole conversation. They explain what they are going to do at the beginning of the film by sending Logan back through time and what they hope to accomplish by doing this. Then they spend practically the whole rest of the film working to carry out that goal. Then they succeed and it changes the Future exactly how they hoped it would. That's not deus ex machina. That's a logical conclusion.

They explain what they're going to do using powers that literally were created out of thin air. You're playing semantics with explanations for DEM. No time travel = no saving the day.

Btw Cap's super soldier abilities didn't manifest out of thin air, there was an origin for how he arrived at acquiring them. Same for Stark. It wasn't relegated to a convenient throwaway line like in this case to usher in time travel so Singer could retcon the entire franchise and get two different casts together for a movie.
 
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They explain what they're going to do using powers that literally were created out of thin air. You're playing semantics with explanations for DEM. No time travel = no saving the day.

Btw Cap's super soldier abilities didn't manifest out of thin air, there was an origin for how he arrived at acquiring them. Same for Stark. It wasn't relegated to a convenient throwaway line like in this case to usher in time travel so Singer could retcon the entire franchise and get two different casts together for a movie.

Yeah all mutant powers come out of thin air. Being a mutant is a plot device to produce any power without coming up with an origin.

Anyway, the idea of how they time travel, which was adapted from the comics, is that her already existing phase powers evolved to phase conciseness. Hence, why they can't just send anyone in there future body to the past.

He's not arguing semantics. There is a very clear definition to the DEM trope. You are ignoring that definition. Or at least half of it. You may not buy the set up, but it's not the climax, it's the set up. A DEM cannot exist in the stories set up. That's like giving birth before conception. It's just not the way things work. This is basic. This is simple. Learn the rules of how these things work before arguing over them.:dry:
 
Yeah all mutant powers come out of thin air. Being a mutant is a plot device to produce any power without coming up with an origin.

Anyway, the idea of how they time travel, which was adapted from the comics, is that her already existing phase powers evolved to phase conciseness. Hence, why they can't just send anyone in there future body to the past.

Comic canon not previously presented in the movie universe.

He's not arguing semantics. There is a very clear definition to the DEM trope. You are ignoring that definition. Or at least half of it. You may not buy the set up, but it's not the climax, it's the set up. A DEM cannot exist in the stories set up. That's like giving birth before conception. It's just not the way things work. This is basic. This is simple. Learn the rules of how these things work before arguing over them.:dry:

It's not universal that it has to happen at the end of a movie. DEM's represent "problems" in a movie which require a solution. That can happen anywhere in the film.

Deus ex Machina

"Coincidences to get characters into trouble are great; coincidences to get them out of it are cheating."

— Emma Coats
A Deus Ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina

Invincible Sentinels are about to destroy the last remaining X-Men. Kitty suddenly can send someone back in time to save the day after never having previously (in any incarnation of the on screen character) been able to do that.
 
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Except it's fast forward years ahead of the last time we saw her and it's a variation of the power we've seen. Would you have rather been told she has a new power before you saw her use it? IMO, the dimenstration in THE FIRST TEN MINUTES OF THE STORY is better then waiting for a diologue 30 or so minutes in. They hit the ground running. You weren't supposed to expect it.

Take the first extraction in inception for example, we all knew they would enter a dream world, but the layering effect hadn't been mentioned in the trailers. So when they woke up in one dream, only to find they were in a dream within a dream, you could say that's cheating or you could say that's how the writers wanted to show the audience dreams could be layered so as to set up the climax. Like in DoFP, the writers opted to show, rather then tell in the scene that INTRODUCED the characters and their powers in THIS film. The sentinels weren't established as existing in any other movies, and were only teased in x3. Yet here they are shown to adapt without any explanation in the middle of the fight sequence. At this point the mystique DNA hasn't been reveled, so you can call that a Deus Ex Machina too. Or you could call it a dramatic reveal. Sometimes you can have those without them automatically being DEMs.

Furthermore, the established rules for powers in previous movies have been that there are no rules. There have been characters that dramatically evolved in power sets in the past for the sake of plot. Nobody was crying DEM when it was revealed Jean grey had another more powerful side to her the entire time (that we had never seen) when she became the Phoenix. If you didn't know it happened in the comics first you would never have expected her to be back in the 3rd. Especially so much more powerful and evil (even with the teases in x2s ending.) so it was an unexpected solution to the problem of Jean greys death in the first act of x3, but would you really call that a DEM? Moreover, the existence of Phoenix in past story lines sets up the possibility of mutants being able to evolve beyond there current power set. And that's what kitty did. Her power mutated. In the 10+ year gap of stuff happening we don't see. So not only can we expect that some things are different, but with it the rules of this universe, it shouldn't surprise us that a character has a new power spun off from her old one. And we shouldn't get mad when they show us this new power to introduce us, rather than tell us about it, and have to take the whole plot of the movie on the word of one character.

This is a time travel story. I think they introduced time travel in the most natural way they could have. How would you have introduced time travel in a less contrived way?
 
A Deus Ex Machina is when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem in a sudden, unexpected way.

Exactly. Sudden and unexpected. It wasn't sudden or unxpected. When the timeline was changed at the end of the film, it was EXPECTED because we were told several times from right at the beginning of the movie that that was what they were going to do.
 
Yeah Kitty's powers were not a Deus Ex Machina. If you don't like it that's fine I guess, but you don't have to falsely call it a Deus Ex Machina to give weight to your own personal preference.

I thought they handled Kitty really well. It's not like we knew that much about her from the other movies, and this one was so set so far after X3.
 
Well, it's not really that farfetched to think that Kitty's powers could eventually lead to time travel, especially thinking within quantum physics.

Now I'm no scientist but her powers "quantum tunneling" could most certainly lead to it - if she, someone or something else are in her phased state and the molecules get enough of a "push" they would essentially travel backwards in time.

Of course, the push would have to be something faster than the speed of light but hey, it's a universe with people that can control the weather and read minds so what the hey.
 
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Yeah Kitty's powers were not a Deus Ex Machina. If you don't like it that's fine I guess, but you don't have to falsely call it a Deus Ex Machina to give weight to your own personal preference.

I thought they handled Kitty really well. It's not like we knew that much about her from the other movies, and this one was so set so far after X3.

My own personal preference? Says people who will accept a character flat out randomly developed a power she did not have prior in order to solve the problem of the invincible sentinels. It's no different than whining about Erik Selvig being able to create a failsafe when we weren't aware he had the capacity to think for himself while under Loki's control.
 
It's no different than whining about Erik Selvig being able to create a failsafe when we weren't aware he had the capacity to think for himself while under Loki's control.

Yea, I don't think that or Kitty's powers are DEM's personally.
 
Exactly. Sudden and unexpected. It wasn't sudden or unxpected. When the timeline was changed at the end of the film, it was EXPECTED because we were told several times from right at the beginning of the movie that that was what they were going to do.

Many times? A random time skip happens after a Sentinel attack and then Kitty explains herself to the group and how she can send Logan back. Her new powers were not achieved, they were written.

Well, it's not really that farfetched to think that Kitty's powers could eventually lead to time travel, especially thinking within quantum physics.

Now I'm no scientists but her powers "quantum tunneling" could most certainly lead to it - if she, someone or something else are in her phased state and the molecules get enough of a "push" they would essentially travel backwards in time.

Of course, the push would have to be something faster than the speed of light but hey, it's a universe with people that can control the weather and read minds so what the hey.

Just like it's not far-fetched Erik Selvig could've remembered he put a failsafe on the portal device. Either way it's arguably convenient and DEM. Does it make or break a movie for people? For some it sure seems like it does. For others the rest of the movie decides whether or not we overlook some of those convenient elements.
 
Just like it's not far-fetched Erik Selvig could've remembered he put a failsafe on the portal device. Either way it's arguably convenient and DEM. Does it make or break a movie for people? For some it sure seems like it does. For others the rest of the movie decides whether or not we overlook some of those convenient elements.

Well I agreed with you, I don't think either one were too convenient. :p
 
They kinda just made stuff up and told the fans to accept it. I did enjoy the movie, but not as much as I had hoped.
 
Kitty has those powers from the beginning of the film. You are acting like she showed no sign of them for 90% of the movie and then magically had them when she needed them at the end.

She's a mutant. Mutants have all sorts of strange, unique powers. Clearly she got them sometime before the beginning of the film considering she uses them in her first scene and then extensively throughout THE ENTIRE FILM.

There is no comparison between that and Selvig's failsafe which comes out of nowhere near the end of the final act, or the Alien Army dropping dead even out of nowhere even after that. A better comparison is Loki all of a sudden having mind control powers even though neither he nor the Tesseract show that ability in the previous films. But you'll notice, I'm not complaining about that. Because much like DoFP, it is clearly established in The Avengers that he can do that.
 
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Kitty has those powers from the beginning of the film. You are acting like she showed no sign of them for 90% of the movie and then magically had them when she needed them at the end.

She's a mutant. Mutants have all sorts of strange, unique powers. Clearly she got them sometime before the beginning of the film considering she uses them in her first scene and then extensively throughout THE ENTIRE FILM.

There is no comparison between that and Selvig's failsafe which comes out of nowhere near the end of the final act, or the Alien Army dropping dead even out of nowhere even after that. A better comparison is Loki all of a sudden having mind control powers even though neither he nor the Tesseract show that ability in the previous films. But you'll notice, I'm not complaining about that. Because much like DoFP, it is clearly established in The Avengers that he can do that.

I thought it was his staff that allowed him to do that.
 
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