Arrow The Barry Allen/The Flash Thread - Part 1

[godisawesome]

Part of the problem with strictly following canonical race and ethnicity is the lack of previous presence and power a new character or successor will bring right off the bat. Black Panther, Luke Cage, etc, were established, created and promoted early on enough to grab a fanbase's attention and become established.

But new, more diverse characters, especially successor characters, generally get pushed aside, retired, or butchered because they just aren't established like their competitors. Connor Hawke was white washed, killed, then neutered upon resurrection. Cass Cain was booted into limbo, than banished once more upon making a successful and largely applauded return. Orpheus was killed and forgotten. It's more an issue of being a popular character than racism when it comes to this issue.

So, you change up a popular canonical character. You weather the fan rage and anger, then if you write good stories you move on with your life and a more diverse cast. Like Nick Fury, Alan Scott, and Heimdall. All three were changed via some new media or format, and all three have just as much staying power as Miles Morales, but with a likely bigger fanbase from the word go.

So yeah, it's still an issue, but the reasoning is sound from a strictly capitalistic point of view.

 

[p4poetic]

I hope it's wrong, once again, it brings up a problem, you say anything about this, you come off as a racist, but why do they insist, btw the rumors on Fantastic Four, and this, on making characters that are white in the comics african-american? This PC bullcrap is getting really annoying. Sigh.......

I don't think politically correct means what you think it means.

I myself would prefer original, newly created Black/PoC characters with their own unique identity instead of changing the race of established white ones, but it certainly isn't the end of the world.

 

[Loki882]

In one of the articles I stumbled across about this very rumor, the writer put it this way - the times when these characters were created and mostly used was before Civil Rights had really hit its stride and that it was frowned upon to have major minority characters in regularly published material.

Nowadays, they're trying to put things in "the modern perspective" by recreating these characters with "bias mode turned off" and introducing more diversity to the attributes of comic book characters.

I didn't articulate it as well as the article, but in my perspective they are taking this the wrong way.

It's true that these characters were created in a time when minorities were still treated poorly and underrepresented in media, however, if they want to turn that around, why not create new, original characters of different races rather than change the existing characters? Like Julio Mendez in the old Flash TV series. I think that's the perfect example of an original minority character that worked well when inserted into the comic book world of an existing character.

If the lack of minority heroes is the issue, why not create a new superhero to stand beside the title character? For Fantastic Four, this may be trickier than it was to insert Falcon into Captain America or War Machine into Iron Man, but they could figure something out. I don't see it as necessary to change existing characters when it could work just as well to create a new one.

Because it's REALLY hard to just make up a new character and have them catch on and become extremely popular. There's a reason that of the tens of thousands of comic book characters that have been created, only a TINY fraction have really caught on. Heck, I've noticed whenever they TRY to push a new character, a lot of fans tend to complain about how the "good," which usually means old, characters are better and should be used instead. It takes the right confluence of factors that doesn't happen all that often. In short, "just make up new characters" is MUCH easier said than done. Besides, what about Iris West's character is FUNDAMMENTALLY changed by her being black, or her personality for that matter? The answer is nothing.

 

[Paradox1]

I found it on CBR and they got it from here:

http://www.bludhavenbanter.com/2013/12/flash-scoop-major-character-change.html

IRIS - 22-28 - African-American - As smart as she is beautiful, Iris is in grad school studying psychology. She's also Barry's mile a minute, fast-talking, quick-witted best friend. Her father, Detective West, took in Barry when his mother was murdered, and his father was wrongly accused and imprisoned for her murder. In a tough childhood for Barry, she was the one "not tough" thing. She's unaware of Barry's strong feelings for her.
DETECTIVE WEST - Late 40s to Early 50s - African American -Detective West is an honest, blue-collar cop who's seen it all. A soulful, funny caring father to Iris, and a surrogate father to Barry, West came up through the foster system himself. He took in Barry after his mother's murder and his father's imprisonment. He believes in Barry and supports Barry's efforts to prove his father's innocence.

and it is no problem.
​

This actually sounds good to me I dig it this makes her 10x's more interesting than the comic counterpart. Iris West being black means nothing I think people are more worried about Wally being black.

 

[Boy Scout]

If it makes you all feel better, I doubt Wally will even show up. DC isn't exactly his biggest fan.

 

[Sawyer]

I hope they hold off on Wally. Don't ice him out entirely, but don't bring him in too soon. I feel like they brought Roy into Arrow too soon.

 

[Boy Scout]

I also kind of feel like Barry has some growing up to do before Wally shows up.

 

[Nathan]

I guess I don't mind that they brought Roy in early. In Young Justice, wasn't he the oldest of the sidekicks? I want Barry to have been around as the Flash for at least 2 years, before they bring Wally in. And then immediately move him over to the Young Justice series.

 

[godisawesome]

I hope they hold off on Wally. Don't ice him out entirely, but don't bring him in too soon. I feel like they brought Roy into Arrow too soon.

Heh. I kind of want a first season episode to feature an adult Wally West time traveling back in time and demonstrating better speed and control then Barry, in part just to spite people who hate the redundancy!t:

Of course, I would then want him to explain how Barry will be the same way in a few years. I'm not entirely partisan.












I just think Wally was a better Flash.t:

 

[Nathan]

Maybe Wally already appeared. Apparently his mom was killed by Thawne. And for some reason, Barry found himself 20 blocks away from his home. Maybe Thawne traveled back in time to kill the Flash Legacy before it began, and Wally interfered and took Barry to safety.

 

[Sawyer]

Maybe Barry took himself to safety!

ZOMG TIME TRAVEL!!!

 

[HighFivingMF]

Or Zoom did it...

 

[Nathan]

No, Wally was there!

 

[HighFivingMF]

Wally isn't Zoom...

 

[ImTheFlash]

I dont get why Zoom didnt kill Barry as a kid? Maybe Zoom just enjoys Barry's pain? Or maybe it was Wally that saved Barry and put him a few blocks away. Or heck, it could've been Jay, Bart or even Barry from the future! Also I cant wait to see The Flash use his speed. I hope super speed on Arrow looks better than smallville or The vampire diaries/the originals.

 

[Sawyer]

I doubt it'll be anything like TVD or the Originals. The speed is never really used for any sort of effect on those shows, it's usually just "yes, mother****er, I CAN move fast. Look at me now, ripping your throat out." I think it's usually just sped up footage of the actor moving at regular speed anyway.

With The Flash, I think it'll be much more eye-popping. Much more of a spectacle.

 

[DrDoom]

As long as there's lightning involved in the effect I'll be happy

 

[DrRocket]

Well at least they said they won't use the blue effect

 

[cleverusername8]

I dont get why Zoom didnt kill Barry as a kid? Maybe Zoom just enjoys Barry's pain? Or maybe it was Wally that saved Barry and put him a few blocks away. Or heck, it could've been Jay, Bart or even Barry from the future! Also I cant wait to see The Flash use his speed. I hope super speed on Arrow looks better than smallville or The vampire diaries/the originals.

There would be a paradox of some kind since Barry has been retconned into the source of the Speed Force. Kill Barry, and speedsters no longer exist anywhere in history. It's a whacky storyline, but it's what it is. They explore it a little bit in DC Universe Online.

The Wally bandwagon irks me sometimes. I'd like the character so much better if not for his fans (funnily enough, I feel the same way about many celebrities). You can't talk about Barry anywhere without a bunch of Wally fans coming in and tearing him down. The worst of this is in the Battles forums on Comic Book Vine, but I digress.

Wally shouldn't become a focus in the story until Barry has had a chance to mature as the Flash. Focus on his story, his relationships, his life for at least two seasons. If the show is still around then, I'm all for Wally coming in as KF and then taking on the mantle in later times should the show continue. But I feel like Barry could be as beloved as a character if he'd get the chance to be written into some cool stories like Wally has since the 80s. The generation gap has been the biggest delineating factor between these two characters.

 

[godisawesome]

Yeah, that's the biggest shame about DC's decision to bench Wally after having such a large generation grow up with him as their Flash. Johns wanted to give both characters their own books, like he'd done with Green Lantern, and for some reason DC didn't think that would work. Even though expansion clearly works better, and you know Johns would have killed it.

I'm not altogether partisan, and I try to be impartial, but as a young reader, I just don't have that much compunction to pick up a book featuring a Flash who wasn't the star in Blitz or (Mark Waid's) Return of Barry Allen, which are really the only reason I got interested in Flash at all. I've picked up some of Barry's new stuff, with a few (again, Johns) exceptions, it hasn't hooked me with enough force.

And since I'm younger, I get ticked when any of the more arrogant and understandably bitter Silve Age fans claims that their characters are better, or very rarely, get vicious and dismissive towards my characters or preferred status quo. Cass Cain is my Batgirl, Wally West is my Flash, and Superman's married to Lois. And these fandom wars are costing DC at least some business. Which is maddening, since the Green Lantern books clearly demonstrate you actually could have your cake and eat it, too, with legacy characters.

I know Johns is supposed to be DC's movie guy, but I think he'd kick all kinds of ass if he had editorial's power when it comes to maximizing comic characters.

I mean, as long as my character exists and gets some creative love, I'm fine, and I'll probably check out some of the old timer's stuff. I now dig Hal Jordan because Kyle Rayner stuck around, I read Red Hood and Nightwing because I love me some Robins. And while Im angry at Tim Drake and Bart's status quo, they're still one new writer away from being good again.


I'm sure that if Wally shows up in any capacity with powers and heroism in Flash, I'll get excited and watch those episodes and probably be hooked by it.

Heck, these shows could show up DC editorial if that Young Justice show actually comes along and they have the balls to tackle legacy characters. Imagine watching the CW so you could watch Barry (The Flash), Wally (The Flash as Kid Flash, Young Justice as the second Flash if they do World Without Grownups), and Bart (Young Justice as Impulse). Just having legacy characters give you so much story telling potential. And you'll have a united fanbase behind you.

 

[Human Torch]

That's what I hate about DC.They kill off characters (or like in the case of Batgirl,cripple her) and when they finally reverse the decision (which I long awaited),they split the fanbase.To me The Flash will ALWAYS be Barry.Wally can be Kid Flash.

 

[Boy Scout]

Because of the Justice League cartoon, Wally is my Flash. However, I don't have a problem with Barry, especially considering the Wally in the cartoons (I'm told) was more similar to Bart Allen than his own comic book counterpart.

 

[Tim_Riggins]

I don't think politically correct means what you think it means.

I myself would prefer original, newly created Black/PoC characters with their own unique identity instead of changing the race of established white ones, but it certainly isn't the end of the world.

Yes it does, because in that case or Fantastic Four reboot, if they do what they intend to do, it's just doing it for the sake of doing it, so minorities can relate or something.

Create new characters, I have no problem with it, but don't make established characters suddenly of another race, it doesn't make sense, it's like for Spider-Man, they created Miles Morales, as long as they don't suddenly turn Peter Parker asian, or african-american, or whatever, it's fine.

It's a question of principle.

 

[Boy Scout]

Yes it does, because in that case or Fantastic Four reboot, if they do what they intend to do, it's just doing it for the sake of doing it, so minorities can relate or something.

I think if their intention was to be politically correct, they would do as you say and create minority characters and have them be integral to the plot.

Changing Johnny Storm from white to black, I think, is simply a case of the best actor for the role coincidentally being a black man. As someone who doesn't care about the Fantastic Four, I don't have a problem with it, but I understand why you (and others) do.

Create new characters, I have no problem with it, but don't make established characters suddenly of another race, it doesn't make sense

For some characters, it just doesn't matter. Slade Wilson, for example, doesn't have to be white. Neither does Peter Parker, to be honest. The difference between them is that the latter is a lot more iconic and screwing too much with his visual iconography probably wouldn't be the best idea.

Again: it depends on the change being made and the character they're changing.

 

[Loki882]

Guess they think it's easier just to take a existing popular character, and just give them a skin change. They basically don't want to put too much effort into it.

Yeah, because it's freaking hard. People keep saying "just create new characters" like that's all there is to it, but it's much easier said than done. It takes a bunch of different factors all coming together to make a character truly popular. There have been MANY really well-written/likeable characters that still didn't catch on, because there's more to it than that. You almost have to be more lucky than good. And also, it's once again bears repeating, what fundamentally aspect about Iris's characterization/personality is altered by Iris being black. The answer is nothing at all, because her being white isn't ultimately important to who she is as a character, it's that simple.