The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BMW 224]

This is just me purely being selfish because I actually think objectively it would have the made opening not be as good as it was but I honestly missed the silence the silence and sound affects in "Im Vengeance" scene from the trailer.

It felt a bit more brutal shocking and intimate to me


Don't get me wrong hearing the crensdio of the beautiful score go along with that scene was the one of the most epic experiences I've had in the theater but damn something about hearing those wet punches with no score just some rain thunder bone breaking and screams just gave me chill's each time I rewatched the trailer.

Just hits different for me.

Not better just different.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Just watched it again, and I’m reminded of how much I enjoyed the way Falcone and the mob treat Bruce.

There’s a decency there, recounting the story of the surgery, the nicknames (“Hey, Johnny Slick”) that’s one part comforting (almost like Bruce has a community there for him that he doesn’t know), but also one part alarming (because they’re criminals).

It was interesting seeing Falcone acting in a genuine fatherly way towards Bruce, telling him not to be disheartened by the truth of his parents, only to be seen strangling women later.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

He was also telling Bruce a half a truth in that scene, so he's definitely not as "genuine" as he presents himself.

 

[Drop Head]

Just watched it again, and I’m reminded of how much I enjoyed the way Falcone and the mob treat Bruce.

There’s a decency there, recounting the story of the surgery, the nicknames (“Hey, Johnny Slick”) that’s one part comforting (almost like Bruce has a community there for him that he doesn’t know), but also one part alarming (because they’re criminals).

It was interesting seeing Falcone acting in a genuine fatherly way towards Bruce, telling him not to be disheartened by the truth of his parents, only to be seen strangling women later.

It's really a great foil that shows how similar but even more so, different the two are. Both are very strict about family but one only goes so far to uphold their values, while the other has all intention to prove himself.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

He was also telling Bruce a half a truth in that scene, so he's definitely not as "genuine" as he presents himself.

Is he really, thoughthough?

I find Alfred's version of events far more suspect.

Falcone has literally nothing to gain by lying to Bruce.

 

[DeadlyWest]

Is he really, thoughthough?

I find Alfred's version of events far more suspect.

Falcone has literally nothing to gain by lying to Bruce.

Not necessarily

What he has to gain is essentially not making an enemy out of Bruce (in his mind). This is one of the richest dudes in the city who's a massive recluse. There's a pretty fair chance that if Bruce went down, Falcone would go down with him. Which he doesn't want and is why he tries to set Bruce's focus on Maroni as the killer of the Waynes.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Is he really, thoughthough?

I find Alfred's version of events far more suspect.

Falcone has literally nothing to gain by lying to Bruce.

Disagreed. He is potentially trying to gain Bruce’s favor, as he tried Thomas Wayne’s decades earlier.

 

[DKDetective]

Is he really, thoughthough?

I find Alfred's version of events far more suspect.

Falcone has literally nothing to gain by lying to Bruce.

Disagreed. He is potentially trying to gain Bruce’s favor, as he tried Thomas Wayne’s decades earlier.

Bingo. As Kirk said, Falcone is trying get Bruce in his pocket. One of the most truthful things in the story he tells Bruce is that Falcone would be unstoppable if he had a Wayne in his pocket. He has made himself Gotham's de facto mayor and all powerful in the City just by pillaging Thomas' minor $1 billion endowment to the Renewal Corporation. Mobsters make their money by corrupting legitimate businesses, doing favours, getting something to hold over them, and squeezing them for protection money. That is how racketeering works. Imagine how fat he would get if he could squeeze Wayne Enterprises?

You can see it in their previous interaction at the funeral. He is trying to convince Bruce that him and his dad were buddies and that there is a connection between their families. He is trying to pull Bruce into his web. If Bruce fell for his song and dance, I bet the next conversation would be, "hey, the scum Maroni who had your parents killed is protected in prison, but he is not beyond my reach. If you want vengeance, I could have him killed for you."

 

[chintai80]

Bingo. As Kirk said, Falcone is trying get Bruce in his pocket. One of the most truthful things in the story he tells Bruce is that Falcone would be unstoppable if he had a Wayne in his pocket. He has made himself Gotham's de facto mayor and all powerful in the City just by pillaging Thomas' minor $1 billion endowment to the Renewal Corporation. Mobsters make their money by corrupting legitimate businesses, doing favours, getting something to hold over them, and squeezing them for protection money. That is how racketeering works. Imagine how fat he would get if he could squeeze Wayne Enterprises?

You can see it in their previous interaction at the funeral. He is trying to convince Bruce that him and his dad were buddies and that there is a connection between their families. He is trying to pull Bruce into his web. If Bruce fell for his song and dance, I bet the next conversation would be, "hey, the scum Maroni who had your parents killed is protected in prison, but he is not beyond my reach. If you want vengeance, I could have him killed for you."

yup. the man is basically the devil in this story.
the devil appears as a comforting figure, using half-truths and lies to get you in his pocket.
it's like senator palpatine level stuff.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I'm just not buying it, guys.

Falcone never seeks Bruce out in the film, at any point.

Not only that, he's had this dirt on the Wayne family for years, too.

Wouldn't it have made far more sense to use that against an adult Bruce to get into his pockets...prior to everyone knowing about it? Once it's out - what does he have on the Wayne family to use against Bruce.

Nada.

Not to mention, Falcone didn't ask anything of Bruce in the entire film. Nor did he imply it.

Besides, in the film's universe - does it really seem like Falcone needs Wayne money? The guy has the DA, the Mayor's office, the police force and the criminal underbelly at his beck and call.

Doesn't seem like he needs a recluse's cash.

He actually implies he knows Bruce has a good moral compass when he can tell Bruce may lose sleep over what his father did. That's not telling me he thinks Bruce is susceptible to bad deeds/coming to his side.

Between Alfred and Falcone - I don't see Falcone's motive to lie to Bruce.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

There's a pretty fair chance that if Bruce went down, Falcone would go down with him.

So you believe Falcone, at the top of his empire and at peak power, is scared that he'd go down against a pasty recluse like Bruce if he made him an enemy...

...yet we're to believe this same Falcone would publicly murder the top mayoral candidate and his wife - literal public royalty - 20 years prior when he had even less power.

Tell me which one seems far more risky for Falcone to be taken down, alongside a Wayne.

There's zero way Bruce intimidates Falcone.

 

[DeadlyWest]

I'm just not buying it, guys.

Falcone never seeks Bruce out in the film, at any point.

Not only that, he's had this dirt on the Wayne family for years, too.

Wouldn't it have made far more sense to use that against an adult Bruce to get into his pockets...prior to everyone knowing about it? Once it's out - what does he have on the Wayne family to use against Bruce.

Nada.

Not to mention, Falcone didn't ask anything of Bruce in the entire film. Nor did he imply it.

Besides, in the film's universe - does it really seem like Falcone needs Wayne money? The guy has the DA, the Mayor's office, the police force and the criminal underbelly at his beck and call.

Doesn't seem like he needs a recluse's cash.

He actually implies he knows Bruce has a good moral compass when he can tell Bruce may lose sleep over what his father did. That's not telling me he thinks Bruce is susceptible to bad deeds/coming to his side.

Between Alfred and Falcone - I don't see Falcone's motive to lie to Bruce.

Wayne has been a seeming recluse his entire life.

Falcone has no reason to seek out Wayne because Wayne flat out isn't a threat to him as far as he knows. Nobody knows about his dealings with Thomas, so Bruce is unlikely to be that involved with Falcone in his life. Especially when Falcone himself is a bit of a hermit himself, only rarely "leaving the shore line", as it were.

It's only when Riddler reveals what Thomas did, that Bruce potentially becomes a threat to Falcone. A threat that Falcone would rather have in his pocket than be his enemy. Before, the least risky option would simply be to leave Wayne alone in his tower. After, it's gonna be better to be his friend now that the truth is out over what happened to Elliot.

So of course, he lies and tries to deflect blame onto Maroni to try and shift Bruce's attention away from himself.

He's not gonna tell him the truth because if he tells Bruce that Thomas didn't want Elliot killed, Bruce is immediately going to suspect him in the death of his parents. And being in the crosshairs of arguably one of if not the richest man in the entire city isn't really that great of an idea, especially when Falcone's made a lifetime out of trying to hide his dealings in the shadows. It's just not a good idea.

 

[DeadlyWest]

So you believe Falcone, at the top of his empire and at peak power, is scared that he'd go down against a pasty recluse like Bruce if he made him an enemy...

...yet we're to believe this same Falcone would publicly murder the top mayoral candidate and his wife - literal public royalty - 20 years prior when he had even less power.

Tell me which one seems far more risky for Falcone to be taken down, alongside a Wayne.

There's zero way Bruce intimidates Falcone.

Scared? No. Sees him as a threat? I'd say so. He's the richest dude in the city and unlike Thomas literally doesn't go outside. Bruce is just as much a recluse as he is. It's not like he can just assassinate Bruce in that fashion when he lives essentially on the top floor of the highest building in the city and doesn't come out. And all it would take is for Bruce to find out that Falcone might have done the deed and Bruce's crosshairs immediately go onto Falcone. The dude has enough money that getting proof would probably just be a case of the right bribe here and there. I don't see Falcone risking that. So naturally, he tries to make Bruce see him as a "friend" and deflects his attention to Maroni instead.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

It's only when Riddler reveals what Thomas did, that Bruce potentially becomes a threat to Falcone. A threat that Falcone would rather have in his pocket than be his enemy. Before, the least risky option would simply be to leave Wayne alone in his tower. After, it's gonna be better to be his friend now that the truth is out over what happened to Elliot.

So of course, he lies and tries to deflect blame onto Maroni to try and shift Bruce's attention away from himself.

He's not gonna tell him the truth because if he tells Bruce that Thomas didn't want Elliot killed, Bruce is immediately going to suspect him in the death of his parents. And being in the crosshairs of arguably one of if not the richest man in the entire city isn't really that great of an idea, especially when Falcone's made a lifetime out of trying to hide his dealings in the shadows. It's just not a good idea.

I get what you're trying to say - but I do not see this seasoned gangster thinking Bruce is a threat. I just don't buy it.

And no matter what, this makes Thomas Wayne look like a naïve dolt, at best.

Even you keep pointing out Bruce is a rich guy - but that doesn't sound like much of a reason for Falcone to be scared. Bruce may have money (dwindling, as it seems Alfred implies) - but in Falcone's eyes...that's about it.

No friends. No political pull. No pull anywhere. Falcone has the DA, police, gangs and businesses.

I do not see how Bruce would be seen as a threat.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

It's not like he can just assassinate Bruce in that fashion when he lives essentially on the top floor of the highest building in the city and doesn't come out.

The Riddler...literally...used the post office to nearly kill someone at Bruce's home. Surely Falcone could find a way if he actually considered Bruce a threat.

In fact, knowing exactly where Bruce all the time would make it even easier for someone like Falcone.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

The dude has enough money that getting proof would probably just be a case of the right bribe here and there. I don't see Falcone risking that. So naturally, he tries to make Bruce see him as a "friend" and deflects his attention to Maroni instead.

Who would Bruce bribe?

Falcone's police officers? Falcone's DA? All of whom are not only paid by Falcone but know he'd kill them AND their loved ones if they went against him?

Anyone Bruce could 'bribe' is already more loyal to Falcone than they ever could be to Bruce.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

If Bruce Wayne was an actual threat to gangsters like Falcone - Batman would need to work a heck of a lot less.

 

[DeadlyWest]

I get what you're trying to say - but I do not see this seasoned gangster thinking Bruce is a threat. I just don't buy it.

And no matter what, this makes Thomas Wayne look like a naïve dolt, at best.

Even you keep pointing out Bruce is a rich guy - but that doesn't sound like much of a reason for Falcone to be scared. Bruce may have money (dwindling, as it seems Alfred implies) - but in Falcone's eyes...that's about it.

No friends. No political pull. No pull anywhere. Falcone has the DA, police, gangs and businesses.

I do not see how Bruce would be seen as a threat.

If Bruce knows, he's gonna use his resources to try and find proof that Falcone is dirty.

Proof that'd probably come pretty easily given there's a fair chance that Thomas' Son could find evidence of Thomas' and Falcone's meeting pretty easily. And at that point, Bruce would have nothing to lose because he doesn't care about his reputation. That much is pretty obvious. And at that point, Falcone is done. Even if Bruce can't go to the police, he can do exactly what happens to Falcone in the movie. Leak that to the media, watch him crash and burn and force the police's hand.

As for Thomas, yeah maybe. But that seemed to me more like he was a man that was desperate to keep his wife's mental issues private. Desperation makes you do stupid things, go figure.

The Riddler...literally...used the post office to nearly kill someone at Bruce's home. Surely Falcone could find a way if he actually considered Bruce a threat.

In fact, knowing exactly where Bruce all the time would make it even easier for someone like Falcone.

Probably, but that'd still take time. Even the Riddler bomb didn't work because Bruce doesn't check his own mail. And that time Falcone would require to get someone (or at least something) into Wayne Tower is time Bruce can use to expose Falcone. It'd need to be a pretty foolproof plan, given if it failed there's basically no chance Falcone would get another shot at killing Bruce.

It's just not a risk I see Falcone wanting on the table unless he absolutely has to.

If Bruce Wayne was an actual threat to gangsters like Falcone - Batman would need to work a heck of a lot less.

Not really. Even in the Nolan movies it's explained why Batman is required despite Bruce. Bruce could do a lot to deconstruct crime as it currently exists but there'd just be more to take the current places at the table. The element of crime itself requires a more unorthodox solution. Something seemingly unkillable to deter them from even trying. Bruce being a threat doesn't automatically mean Batman's not needed.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Who doesn't know Falcone is dirty, though?

 

[DeadlyWest]

Who doesn't know Falcone is dirty, though?

Who knows doesn't matter.

Who has categorical and undeniable proof absolutely does given that's exactly what gets him arrested.

 

[shauner111]

Falcone is obviously playing Bruce. He’s telling him what he wants to hear. This is a man with zero emotion. Dead eyes, hidden by his tinted glasses. A complete sociopath, making his life and career out of manipulation and holding **** over their heads. If he can do what he did to Maroni, it should come as no surprise that he’d try to throw Salvatore under the bus for more. Including the death of the Wayne’s.

I’d like to see Liotta errr I mean Maroni come out of prison pissed off that he didn’t get a chance to kill Falcone himself. So he targets Carmine’s right hand instead: The Penguin.

 

[BMW 224]

Falcone is obviously playing Bruce. He’s telling him what he wants to hear. This is a man with zero emotion. Dead eyes, hidden by his tinted glasses. A complete sociopath, making his life and career out of manipulation and holding **** over their heads. If he can do what he did to Maroni, it should come as no surprise that he’d try to throw Salvatore under the bus for more. Including the death of the Wayne’s.

I’d like to see Liotta errr I mean Maroni come out of prison pissed off that he didn’t get a chance to kill Falcone himself. So he targets Carmine’s right hand instead: The Penguin.

Bruce Wayne didn't want to hear what Falcone said though he was distraught by the information.

Alfred explanation delt more like what Bruce would want to here.

Falcone was a sociopath but the film doesn't really give a good reason to believe his story was a complete lie either.

 

[chintai80]

I’d like to see Liotta errr I mean Maroni come out of prison pissed off that he didn’t get a chance to kill Falcone himself. So he targets Carmine’s right hand instead: The Penguin.

this would be good for the sequel or even the hbo max series.

maroni trying to take back his lost territory, and the ensuing turf war with penguin ends up spilling into the streets - threatening civilian lives.

can bring in harvey dent too since the DA office probably has been purged after this first film.

could be like in the long halloween + de palma's untouchables.

 

[Neno_Kos]

I’d like to see Liotta errr I mean Maroni come out of prison pissed off that he didn’t get a chance to kill Falcone himself. So he targets Carmine’s right hand instead: The Penguin.

I think you got right on money plot of HBO series.

I mean what else you do with HBO series? You cant really do something big because that would include having Batman. It needs to be basically self contained mafia story which involves Falcone, Penguin and somewhat GCPD, but not necessary Batman. So likely event in past, borrowed by plot of movie as it effects wouldnt spill necessary on movie sequels beyond establishing Oz going fully Penguin we see in comics.

 

[shauner111]

The Scarface reference in the press is making me think of Montana and Sosa or something like that for Maroni and Cobblepot.