The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[flickchick85]

****, Martinez... I was combining the two names.

Loved that he had his own little mini-arc with regards to Batman in this: trying to keep him out of the crime scene and calling him a freak in his first scene, to basically trying to make small talk and be buddies with him while they investigate together in act 3 lol.

 

[Luke995]

Ok, just ended one hour ago.

I had to rewatch it soon. It's so dense and different from other Batman movies...

What I can say is this: it's the best Batman movie ever, in terms of accuracy in the characterization and in the core elements of the character.

But I don't know if it is the best as "a movie". But it is of course on the top with Batman 89 and TDK for me.

The fact is that it wasn't as I expected.
I thought it was more like Se7en, but it's way more like Chinatown, L.A. Confidential and The French Connection.

In terms of directing, cinematography, editing it seems a 70s noir movie. Really.
I didn't think it would be so much in that route.

Here's the point: I don't like so much this kind of investigative movies. For my taste, I prefer more a thriller investigative type of movies.
I mean, I recognize that Chinatown is a great movie, but - even if I wouldn't say it bored me - I'm not so able to be connected when mistery story when the rythm is not so thrilling and there are so much informations to elaborate.

But, I repeat, it's just my taste. This movie works very well and for all his Bat-elements I loved it anyway.

Regarding this, it's pretty funny that I didn't found the third act confused at all...
Until Alfred's attack, the rythm growed and I liked it more and more.

All the first 90 minutes worked too, but it was a little strange.
It's truly a detective movie. Anything of cinecomic/superhero movie in it. And that's not a bad thing!
I just found it almost like a procedural tv series, for the way the story puts you in that world with the case bringing you to discover it.
Strange, but I think that rewatching it without that shock, it would be great.

Anyway.
I didn't liked some things.

- The screenplay is too "didactic" in some moments. Too many words. The ending is a good proof that a lot of plot points would be better in a more visual way.
And, regarding it... I didn't liked so much Joker's cameo. The scene is good, because it's not a silly easter egg: it's the end of the Riddler arc.
But... I don't know. As I said... too many words. I would like a more visual and scary moment to show the character.
- I found the music good but... too much. Really.
- Alfred has a great scene (hospital) but I would have expected more screentime. Just like Gordon and the Penguin (too functional to the plot and not so characterized).

It will be interesting to think to the sequel.
I hope it won't be something like "No Man's Land" but more like a city how it is in Blade Runner 2049.
The ending Bruce's monologue (which sounds so much like Terminator 2 ending or something like that... so 80s!), I think sets a "war" between powerful men and mobs but I think more like a "Godfather" movie.

Ok, for now I'm done.

One more thing.

I didn't understand if Penguin was involved in Riddler's plan to focus the police attention and to extract the gun so Riddler could kill Falcone.
Anyone?

 

[The Shape]

My issue is that it will go over most everyone's heads because it wasn't really fleshed out that much. And in a film where everything, even small stuff, is massively fleshed out - makes it all the more easy to not see it.

There is no huge single "Martha" epiphany/transformation moment in this. Battinson's arc is gradual as we go through the film with him, and I would say it is fully realized by the end.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

While I wish more time was spent on it I greatly appreciate the ambiguity of the Wayne situation. I'd have been fine with overt Telltale-style corruption but this feels meatier and mysterious.

 

[Jekecy]

My issue is that it will go over most everyone's heads because it wasn't really fleshed out that much. And in a film where everything, even small stuff, is massively fleshed out - makes it all the more easy to not see it.

Even if they didn't see it, conveniently Bruce says it in a completely unnecessary voiceover.

If someone still doesn't get it or glossed over it, that's on them.

 

[antsman41]

Can we talk about what a good, coked out (err, dropped out - the drops are so clearly there so it can have drug use without getting an R) scumbag performance Sarsgaard gave? Such an excellent, underrated actor.

The drop drugs were neat... it looked like micro dosed shrooms meets Molly on the characters.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't know, I honestly feel it's what the whole movie has been building towards.

My issue is it feels like you could remove the Wayne "corruption" angle entirely, and I'm not sure it would be of any detriment to that arc. Which leads me to question it being there in the first place. I think having both that and 'becoming more than vengeance' aspect muddles what the movie is trying to do with Bruce's development a bit. Each could probably have been the focus of its own film.

The best explanation I've got for his transformation is that Alfred nearly dying shakes him out of his detached coldness a bit and he's the scared little boy again, able to gain some perspective from that standpoint. Need to see how it all plays on my second viewing.

 

[Boom]

The Wayne reveal could've been handled a bit better.

Riddler: "Thomas Wayne had Carmine Falcone kill a reporter."
Bruce (to Falcone): "Is this true?"
Falcone: "Yeah. Btw I think Maroni killed your dad."
Bruce (to Alfred): "You lied to me."
Alfred: "Your dad didn't have anyone killed. Btw I think Falcone killed your dad."

A lot of back and forth in the span of ten minutes.

 

[Jekecy]

The Wayne reveal could've been handled a bit better.

Riddler: "Thomas Wayne had Carmine Falcone kill a reporter."
Bruce (to Falcone): "Is this true?"
Falcone: "Yeah. Btw I think Maroni killed your dad."
Bruce (to Alfred): "You lied to me."
Alfred: "Your dad didn't have anyone killed. Btw I think Falcone killed your dad."

A lot of back and forth in the span of ten minutes.

I liked the procedural processes and following Bats around, but I must say the mysteries and revelations themselves weren't interesting.

Falcone being the rat was particularly disappointing. It was clever tying his name to the bird-theme, but that was it. I was expecting so much more from a secret that (according to Colson) would set the city on its head. A mobster being the one behind all the strings isn't exciting or new.

 

[dhandler01]

Loved that he had his own little mini-arc with regards to Batman in this: trying to keep him out of the crime scene and calling him a freak in his first scene, to basically trying to make small talk and be buddies with him while they investigate together in act 3 lol.

While fanboying over Bruce Wayne!

 

[dhandler01]

Honestly the entire Falcone storyline was my only real gripe. Just seemed like something for a different film.

 

[antsman41]

I liked the procedural processes and following Bats around, but I must say the mysteries and revelations themselves weren't interesting.

Falcone being the rat was particularly disappointing. It was clever tying his name to the bird-theme, but that was it. I was expecting so much more from a secret that (according to Colson) would set the city on its head. A mobster being the one behind all the strings isn't exciting or new.

Well, he wasn't even a rat in the traditional sense... it was all a power/drug vacuum scheme.

 

[BatLobster]

The Wayne reveal could've been handled a bit better.

Riddler: "Thomas Wayne had Carmine Falcone kill a reporter."
Bruce (to Falcone): "Is this true?"
Falcone: "Yeah. Btw I think Maroni killed your dad."
Bruce (to Alfred): "You lied to me."
Alfred: "Your dad didn't have anyone killed. Btw I think Falcone killed your dad."

A lot of back and forth in the span of ten minutes.

Structurally, I understand why they waited, but I wonder if bringing in the element of the Waynes' involvement in the corruption earlier in the storyline would've allowed it more time to simmer with Bruce and lessened the jerkiness of all those reveals.

These aren't movie-breaking for me by any means. Making a Batman movie that is this adult while also functioning as a PG-13 blockbuster that pleases the studio is an extremely HARD juggling act and I think Reeves did an admirable job stepping up to the plate and finding unexplored avenues to go down. I do hope he tightens the story a bit next time though.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

Did anybody else find it funny that Alfred gets injured, is presumably asleep for a day or two, wakes up to see Bruce by his side, then Bruce immediately starts digging into him about the coverup.

The Bruce/Alfred relationship in this was strange for me. He seemed so cold towards him most of the time, and I thought Bruce being by his side at the hospital would finally allow them to bond but instead Bruce is just angry with him.

 

[BatLobster]

Did anybody else find it funny that Alfred gets injured, is presumably asleep for a day or two, wakes up to see Bruce by his side, then Bruce immediately starts digging into him about the coverup.

The Bruce/Alfred relationship in this was strange for me. He seemed so cold towards him most of the time, and I thought Bruce being by his side at the hospital would finally allow them to bond but instead Bruce is just angry with him.

It was tough for me to see him act that way. Bruce needed a good slap across the face in this movie.

Where's Rachel when you need her?

 

[antsman41]

Bruce has only recently been warmer towards Alfred, in the last 15 years in the comics.

The past trilogy and the 90's films spoiled us a little. Even BTAS Bruce is a bit short with ol' Alfred.

Bruce is a bit of a dick to him especially post-Jason's death and up through Contagion/Legacy/NML.

 

[BatLobster]

Bruce has only recently been warmer towards Alfred, in the last 15 years in the comics.

The past trilogy and the 90's films spoiled us a little. Even BTAS Bruce is a bit short with ol' Alfred.

Bruce is a bit of a dick to him especially post-Jason's death and up through Contagion/Legacy/NML.

Yeah, I mean that's fair. Admittedly, having grown up on the 90s movies, my default setting for their relationship is a mixture of warm banter, mixed with Alfred expressing concern for Bruce.

Seeing Alfred working on decoding the riddles was rad though. Like he was casually doing the Sunday crossword puzzle in the paper or something.

 

[antsman41]

Are we to assume Alfred fought in the Gulf War? That's 30 years ago... and this Alfred feels early 50's.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

More Alfred was badly needed. By far my biggest issue with the movie. They have enough to convey what needs to be conveyed, but I really wanted their relationship fleshed out more.

 

[spideyfan77]

Did anybody else find it funny that Alfred gets injured, is presumably asleep for a day or two, wakes up to see Bruce by his side, then Bruce immediately starts digging into him about the coverup.

The Bruce/Alfred relationship in this was strange for me. He seemed so cold towards him most of the time, and I thought Bruce being by his side at the hospital would finally allow them to bond but instead Bruce is just angry with him.

Not really honestly….Bruce was deeply hurt and worried for him as shown when he left the manor and raced home calling his penthouse. Then you see his face when he sees and hears he is too late. Visits the hospital and is in clear distress.

Then he learns a massive turning point in his life and past that only Alfred could have known and didn’t tell him which yeah Bruce would be extremely pissed about considering Alfred knows how much it means to him.

Then he finally discussed it and went onto say that he is only scared of one thing: losing Alfred. I thought it was beautifully done.

 

[Jekecy]

Did anybody else find it funny that Alfred gets injured, is presumably asleep for a day or two, wakes up to see Bruce by his side, then Bruce immediately starts digging into him about the coverup.

The Bruce/Alfred relationship in this was strange for me. He seemed so cold towards him most of the time, and I thought Bruce being by his side at the hospital would finally allow them to bond but instead Bruce is just angry with him.

Pretty sure it's supposed to be funny in a dark way (like much of the humor in this film).

My entire theater was a riot when Bruce responded the way he did. He has absolutely zero bedside manner, which makes sense for such an emotionally disconnected loner.

If they eventually adopt a playboy persona for him, I'd be so curious how that plays out for this Bruce.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

Pretty sure it's supposed to be funny in a dark way (like much of the humor in this film).

My entire theater was a riot when Bruce responded the way he did. He has absolutely zero bedside manner, which makes sense for such an emotionally disconnected loner.

If they eventually adopt a playboy persona for him, I'd be so curious how that plays out for this Bruce.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they never go there. I thought that by the end of this movie Bruce would be reintegrated into Wayne Enterprises and start having a public persona, but that didn’t happen.

 

[fake]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they never go there. I thought that by the end of this movie Bruce would be reintegrated into Wayne Enterprises and start having a public persona, but that didn’t happen.

I thought that as well, but the movie literally takes place over a period of 7 days with Bruce Wayne being one of the targets of assassination so I can see the next movie start with him being a more public figure and working with Wayne Enterprises to make Gotham better for everyone and taking a more active role in Renewal.

 

[antsman41]

Gosh… it just hit me. Alfred getting attacked and Bruce reconciling with him, was the first step towards caring more for others. Up to that point his pretty nihilistic and on a death wish. But, that plus the “I’m vengeance” from the Riddle goon brought out the heroism.

Damn, I need to see it again.

 

[Dragoncaine]

Gosh… it just hit me. Alfred getting attacked and Bruce reconciling with him, was the first step towards caring more for others. Up to that point his pretty nihilistic and on a death wish. But, that plus the “I’m vengeance” from the Riddle goon brought out the heroism.

Damn, I need to see it again.

I could've used one more scene with Alfred during the 3rd act or after the climax, as well as having Bruce make an appearance during Bella's speech, but that scene between Bruce and him is easily one of my favorites in the movie.