The Batman Spoiler Discussion Thread

[TheVileOne]

So this has been on my mind for quite some time....maybe it started with TDK trilogy....

What's up with directors want Batman to focus on his no-kill code but yet set up some sequences in which Batman is extremely reckless and arguably causes tons of death? In this movie, as awesome as the batmobile chase was, you could argue that Batman escalated the whole thing with that chase. I can't even imagine how many people were killed in that high way pile up. And all of that for what? Some weird clues that played like a joke?

Speaking of Penguin, did Batman and Gordon seriously left him alone after they busted him on a drug trade, shooting them, and causing high way pile up? Really?

I'm guessing they had no cause to arrest Penguin and bring him in at that point. That sting wasn't exactly by the books.

 

[samsnee]

So this has been on my mind for quite some time....maybe it started with TDK trilogy....

What's up with directors wanting Batman to focus on his no-kill code but yet set up some sequences in which Batman is extremely reckless and arguably causes tons of death? In this movie, as awesome as the batmobile chase was, you could argue that Batman escalated the whole thing with that chase. I can't even imagine how many people were killed in that high way pile up. And all of that for what? Some weird clues that played like a joke?

Speaking of Penguin, did Batman and Gordon seriously left him alone after they busted him on a drug trade, shooting them, and causing high way pile up? Really?

I assume it’s one of those “let some fish get away to catch a bigger fish” things

 

[SpideyZERO]

I'm guessing they had no cause to arrest Penguin and bring him in at that point. That sting wasn't exactly by the books.

Yeah I suppose so. I'm gonna assume no one was killed in that chase based on comic book logic. If this was any other comic book movies I probably won't think much about it, but since this movie took itself seriously, I put it more under real world consideration. That's the flaw about making a serious movie though, all the flaws will be much more obvious.

Or maybe I am just getting too old for movie lol

 

[fan4stic]

I was into it.

I wasn't sure on any of the casting at first. But I think a lot of the ones that I wasn't so sure about, Wright, Pattinson, Kravitz, even Serkis, sold what they were doing. I'm not really feeling Paul Dano's Riddler though. I think, mostly, all the actors pull off what they're doing and I was into it, except him. I go with it on it's on terms, moreso, to me, I think, but it's not my preferred Riddler vibe and attitude.

The Thomas Wayne thing I'm torn on. I partly like what they did, but also not. On one hand, I think it'd be easy to have made Thomas just a bad guy, so I'm partially into them not doing that. But on the other hand, I think they played kid gloves and pulled their punches to try and keep Thomas Wayne more clean than I'd prefer, with what they did. I'd could go with more ambigousness to it, to make it a little more messy, for me. I think that could've allowed, to me, for more of an exploration of the Batman/Bruce Wayne character in the movie.

I did feel the pacing was off for parts of the movie. I felt like there was this thing where the intensity was rising with the Falcone scene and then the movie slowed back down again, to me, and then it ramped up.

Saw Ben Shapiro said it was bad on the civil war thread. I don't get that at all. I liked Batman Begins more, but I still think this was a strongly structured movie. But I also saw that he said BvS was good, so I don't think, as far as Batman movies go, his review taste is very strong. As a Christian, as well, I don't get that. I felt like The Batman promoted, whether intentionally or not, Christian values of letting go of revenge and using your pain to pursue something positive. I was digging that.

Like I said, I prefer Batman Begins, I think I felt more emotionally engaged with that Bruce Wayne and that story, and maybe it was because I think Pattinson is playing a more sulky or something like that type of Bruce Wayne, rather than what I think may have been Christian Bale's more, to me, personable and maybe more rounded out Bruce Wayne, and I think BB had more flare story and character wise to it. But maybe that's just me.

Overall, I mostly liked it.

 

[Bary]

So this has been on my mind for quite some time....maybe it started with TDK trilogy....

What's up with directors wanting Batman to focus on his no-kill code but yet set up some sequences in which Batman is extremely reckless and arguably causes tons of death? In this movie, as awesome as the batmobile chase was, you could argue that Batman escalated the whole thing with that chase. I can't even imagine how many people were killed in that high way pile up. And all of that for what? Some weird clues that played like a joke?

Speaking of Penguin, did Batman and Gordon seriously left him alone after they busted him on a drug trade, shooting them, and causing high way pile up? Really?

i learned along time ago with batman movies yes he will go out his way to not kill but there is always a chase as the studios wanna sell car bat-mobiles so dont get too caught up in the details. Plus the chase itself was awesome and looked fun to film

 

[WatchProtect]

Probably finish on Monday I think?

 

[AntonGobbs89]

I think Anne was spot-on as the Selina as the thief who can grift and blend in with high society folk, despite despising them ala BTAS Selina.

Zoe was a pitch perfect version of a Year One style Selina who comes from a really rough background and made it believable that she could mingle with some of the most dangerous people in Gotham. She has the most meat to her role and definitely can see the argument for her being the best.

Michelle I think is still on another level in terms of the sheer acting prowess displayed. She very may well be to Catwoman what Heath is to Joker in that regard.

There is a similarity in Selina's arc in The Batman and Returns though, with her wanting to kill a man who has wronged her for revenge, with Batman trying to stop her.

Yeah, I’m actually happy with all three Catwomen. Performance wise Pfeiffer is still the one that blows me away, but the other actors have done a great job with the character imo.

 

[Bary]

I may get destroyed for this but if in a sequel we get more of penguin, Colin has a serious chance to overtake ledger as a transcendent batman villain performance.

 

[Nardz937]

Most surprising is Dano's face remained intact. Batman didn't lay a finger on him the whole movie.

 

[flygerr5]

I may get destroyed for this but if in a sequel we get more of penguin, Colin has a serious chance to overtake ledger as a transcendent batman villain performance.

Totally agree man, Colin just disappeared into the role. He was a scene stealer for sure. I think his show is going to be a huge hit, with lots and lots of dark humor in it

 

[Iceman]

I’m so glad this Penguin and his Iceberg Lounge (and the twins ) are going to be a fixture in the Reeves verse. Great thing to build around.

 

[CondimentKing]

Yeah, the Joker scene was useless to me because I thought Penguin's end scene fulfills the idea that Gotham is still going to be in trouble. He was fantastic, hilarious and it just *felt* right. Very much in favour of Penguin as main bad guy.

 

[Bary]

Totally agree man, Colin just disappeared into the role. He was a scene stealer for sure. I think his show is going to be a huge hit, with lots and lots of dark humor in it

His voice and face were completely unrecognizable every-time he showed up. Truly job well done and excellent judgment that reeves trusted Colin to pull this off.

 

[Bary]

Yeah, the Joker scene was useless to me because I thought Penguin's end scene fulfills the idea that Gotham is still going to be in trouble. He was fantastic, hilarious and it just *felt* right. Very much in favour of Penguin as main bad guy.

I actually don't want joker right now and think he is not needed. Its time to explore other villains and we just got joker with phoenix.

 

[flygerr5]

Yeah, the Joker scene was useless to me because I thought Penguin's end scene fulfills the idea that Gotham is still going to be in trouble. He was fantastic, hilarious and it just *felt* right. Very much in favour of Penguin as main bad guy.

I definitely think Penguin will be a main bad guy and Gotham's criminal kingpin essentially, but I don't agree that the Joker scene wasn't needed. It served it's purpose. Just as Reeves said, it let the audience know that there are more troubles out there for the future of Gotham, beyond just the mob element. It also sets up a Riddler/Joker team up that might be explored in the next film when they eventually break out

 

[AntonGobbs89]

My biggest problem with the movie is they play the "Batman outsmarted and too late" card again. Batman media (comics, games) like to do this a lot. Batman showed his investigation skills, but he failed to solve the case in any meaningful manners. Riddler was ahead of Batman all the way. I was waiting for some sort of brilliant deduction scene in which he put every pieces together but it never came.

And if Joker is going to be a major part of the sequel, Batman will be outsmarted...again.

I just got out of seeing the film a second time. First off, it worked for me a little better knowing where things are going. However, what you’re talking about did stand out to me. You could almost remove Batman from the story and Riddlers plan would play out the same. It’s the same problem I have with Mask of the Phantasm.

 

[AntonGobbs89]

One thing I wanted to give Reeves credit for is how well he handled the visual storytelling. The Batman/Catwoman relationship for example is mostly conveyed through visuals or when Batman looks at the Mayors son. There are a lot of things that were left implied and I really respect that. We haven’t seen that type of storytelling in a stand-alone live action Batman movie since Burton’s films.


An argument could be made that Snyder’s films had that as well.

 

[Brotherhood]

I loved the moment where Batman was looking into Selina's eyes and it lingered before revealing he was just checking the contacts. It was obvious but still a nice moment for the two.

I also loved all the club scenes, but her introduction and then the operation with her wearing the contacts was just brilliant, and I loved how instantly they worked together. They both were so focused on what they wanted from each other and what they wanted independently that they didn't need to spend time trying to work each other out, it just happened naturally over the course of the movie, which was a nice change of pace for romance and even just partnerships in these kinds of movies.

 

[Da-Scribe]

My biggest problem with the movie is they play the "Batman outsmarted and too late" card again. Batman media (comics, games) like to do this a lot. Batman showed his investigation skills, but he failed to solve the case in any meaningful manners. Riddler was ahead of Batman all the way. I was waiting for some sort of brilliant deduction scene in which he put every pieces together but it never came.

And if Joker is going to be a major part of the sequel, Batman will be outsmarted...again.

The movie isn’t really about Batman solving the case though. Not at its core. It’s about him letting go of his past and realizing that inspiring hope in Gotham’s citizens is more important than inspiring fear in its criminals. He kinda needed to lose to Riddler in order to get there.

 

[samsnee]

I loved the moment where Batman was looking into Selina's eyes and it lingered before revealing he was just checking the contacts. It was obvious but still a nice moment for the two.

I also loved all the club scenes, but her introduction and then the operation with her wearing the contacts was just brilliant, and I loved how instantly they worked together. They both were so focused on what they wanted from each other and what they wanted indepdantly that they didn't need to spend time trying to work each other out, it just happened naturally over the course of the movie, which was a nice change of pace for romance and even just partnerships in these kinds of movies.

Funny story. When Batman is watching Selina undress through the window, the woman next to me said in a non-joking tone “What a pervert”.

 

[SpideyZERO]

I just got out of seeing the film a second time. First off, it worked for me a little better knowing where things are going. However, what you’re talking about did stand out to me. You could almost remove Batman from the story and Riddlers plan would play out the same. It’s the same problem I have with Mask of the Phantasm.

I think Mask of Phantasm still works for me because it was not billed as Batman being a detective movie. Plus, the end conflict with Phantasm and Joker was a great conclusion and bittersweet.

The Batman was marketed as the movie that "will show that why Batman is the greatest detective", but instead of getting that, we get a movie which Batman was totally outsmarted. I agree that Batman's lesson in this movie is that he has to be better than vengeance, but that could have been achieved by not having Batman losing against Riddler. Even Batman vs Joker in TDK, despite Batman technically losing, was not as one sided as this.

I think it's just my growing resentment towards recent Batman media playing up Batman's failures. Even Arkham games, as awesome as they were, have Batman constantly too late to save anyone. It even ends with Batman losing...sort of.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

.

Like I said, I prefer Batman Begins, I think I felt more emotionally engaged with that Bruce Wayne and that story, and maybe it was because I think Pattinson is playing a more sulky or something like that type of Bruce Wayne, rather than what I think may have been Christian Bale's more, to me, personable and maybe more rounded out Bruce Wayne, and I think BB had more flare story and character wise to it. But maybe that's just me.

Overall, I mostly liked it.

I think that’s the gist of the problem with the movie. The Riddler and Batman aren’t at ideological odds. They both believe the city is corrupt. If Riddler weren’t killing people, they probably would work together.

In Nolan’s Batman he believes the city is worth saving despite the corruption. That’s what puts him at odds with Ra.

The Catwoman stuff works better cause she only cares about getting her friend out from under all the corruption. As the corruption is revealed she only spirals further into it. So she and Batman spin out further and further until he’s trying to stop her from killing Falcone.

 

[Kane52630]

A must listen.

 

[fan4stic]

I think that’s the gist of the problem with the movie. The Riddler and Batman aren’t at ideological odds. They both believe the city is corrupt. If Riddler weren’t killing people, they probably would work together.

In Nolan’s Batman he believes the city is worth saving despite the corruption. That’s what puts him at odds with Ra.

The Catwoman stuff works better cause she only cares about getting her friend out from under all the corruption. As the corruption is revealed she only spirals further into it. So she and Batman spin out further and further until he’s trying to stop her from killing Falcone.

I did feel more personally connected to Catwoman/Selina in the movie and that may be why.

And maybe the, to me, dramatic story flare of ideological opposition for Bruce/Batman is connected, at least in part, to why I'm engaged more with Batman Begins. Maybe that movie spends more time on Bruce's perceptions on the world and things, and how he feels about it and how that makes him personally different from the villain, than I feel like this movie does.

 

[dhandler01]

If the movie was trying to make a case for Batman being necessary and being a symbol for hope for truth, justice, and hope, they failed in that regard. If anything, it felt like a good argument for why vigilantism is bad and just emboldens and enables more psychotic people.

Police is corrupt. Government is corrupt. Batman's breed of vigilantism only makes it worse and breeds societal anarchy.

But yeah Riddler won. I don't get why he was upset at the end. He basically did just about everything he wanted to do. He just failed to connect that one dot and one person he wanted to get killed just managed to barely survive. But he basically accomplished just about everything he set out to do.

To call what happened at the end some sort of win for Batman or Gotham City is pathetic. Other than Batman being like, "I guess I have to be nicer now. I have to seek justice not vengeance."

Look everyone, he's a ****ing masked vigilante. He's taking the law into his own hands. He's a private citizen, a one percenter billionaire putting on a mask and going on the streets to fight crime. He's not a police officer. He's not an elected official. He is a criminal for all intents and purposes. Ending the film on that note that Batman is too mean and has to be more like a proverbial Superman now is downright comical.

I think if you want to explore why Batman is above some generic ripped from the headlines version of vigilante street justice, I think you can explore that, but this film ultimately failed to do a good job with that.

How exactly did Batman win at the end of TDK? He literally had to make himself a villain to protect Harvey Dent who tried to kill Gordon and his son. Some victory he basically quit his mission because supposedly that was better for the city. (which it ended up not being or we wouldn't have a sequel)

Hell at the end of Begins we literally hear Gordon say "The Narrows is lost" then he talks about the Joker. Escalation and all that. (not knocking it...still gives me chills) Some victory Gotham is worse than ever!

Sorry but that just doesn't work. Batman never actually wins, because if he did that would mean Gotham is crime free. These are serialized stories winning ends the story.