The Batman VS Batman Begins VS Batman 1989.

[Gothamsknight]

I was thinking about this at work today, but despite the inconsistent nature of Nolan's fight scenes, Bale's fighting style is a lot more faithful to what Reeves is going for. Pattinson's Batman doesn't quite feel like a stealthy ninja, even if it is year two and that he was trained mostly by Alfred. The whole line about "They think I'm hiding in the shadows" is a lot more relevant to Bale's Batman or even Keaton's.

Yup. I felt the same way. Its part of the reason why, even though i loved Pattinsons portrayal, some of it didn't really feel like the "stealthy creature".

 

[BatsAndNights]

I was thinking about this at work today, but despite the inconsistent nature of Nolan's fight scenes, Bale's fighting style is a lot more faithful to what Reeves is going for. Pattinson's Batman doesn't quite feel like a stealthy ninja, even if it is year two and that he was trained mostly by Alfred. The whole line about "They think I'm hiding in the shadows" is a lot more relevant to Bale's Batman or even Keaton's.

Very true, but I think that's kinda a bit of irony and is another aspect of Bruce's crusade that he's gotten wrong. He's trying to be The Shadows, this unseen entity that everyone fears. But...his method is to just step out of the shadows, very plainly, or even knock on the door and just ask "you know who I am?"

So of course, people think it's someone hiding in the shadows instead. However, the third time he goes into the Iceberg Lounge, I actually thought his methodology was very Batman. Sneak in, cut the power, become the Shadows. I wouldn't be surprised if that was intended to be Batman getting closer to being this nocturnal creature of the night in style rather than just a bruiser, like earlier in the movie.

 

[BattleAngel]

Batman 89 and Returns will always be my favorite Batman *films* - and arguably my favorite interpretations of those villain characters, including Joker. As a film nerd, Burton all day.

As a Batman fan, BB is very hard to top. TB handled the no kill rule marginally better, but everything else about BB was phenomenal. “Swear to me” “Do I look like a cop?” Etc. I mean even Bruce fighting in that (North Korean?) prison camp, I mean man, that was such a rad way to start. Bale’s performance was so earnest. Nolan had so much on the line, this was his gateway to the scale he had always been craving. Michael Caine! On a wide range of fronts, BB just owned. The hallucination scenes w/ Scarecrow are legendary. And I think there were a large number of “Bruce figuring it out” scenes that accomplished most of what TB was going for anyway.

I really really liked TB, and I’m into Pattinson’s Batman hugely, but it didn’t stick the landing as a film. The story crafting basics just weren’t there. It wanted to be so many other things that it ended up being more mood board than movie, and without Pattinson’s monster performance to anchor it, I don’t think we’d even be having this discussion.

 

[WayneMB]

The story crafting basics just weren’t there. It wanted to be so many other things that it ended up being more mood board than movie, and without Pattinson’s monster performance to anchor it, I don’t think we’d even be having this discussion.

what

 

[OnLeatherWings]

It wanted to be so many other things that it ended up being more mood board than movie.

It still was a 'movie'. But I would agree that it wants to be a lot of other things in the same way I felt about Joker '19. So much so that both films feel like they take too much from their inspirations in tone and style that it's a bit distracting.

So I can 100% see where you're coming from.

 

[LaRataAlada]

Batman Begins is the definitive origin imo. Can't get any early Batman than that. I love that he immediately goes to the top, with a long-term plan to target the source of what creates the conditions for street crime. Beating up teenage gangmembers is low hanging fruit.

I get that, but the "low hanging fruit" would still need to be addressed as well. And never really was, unfortunately from Nolan's Batman. It wasn't a huge issue, but I still think it could've been addressed.

Street crime is still crime. I live in Chicago, I know. In some cases violently so. Not everything is economic recession based or power issues related to Gotham's mob bosses and corrupt politicians. Even those low hanging fruits have severely rotten bad apples that need to get tossed. Keaton and Pattinson's takes definitely pick those weeds too.

Real cities have terrible street crime. Gotham is supposed to have that on steroids. As we see with the punk ass violent street gang at the start of The Batman, or the muggers at the start of Batman 89.

But Batman was definitely meant to be used as a tool, for what Bruce in TDKT viewed as a finite mission with an end game. I like, and dislike that take all the same. And I get why others have issue with it.

Batman isn't an act to the character in the comics. It's him. He can't quit it. It's his curse.

Pattinson's character is The Batman. It's not a theatrical façade meant to inspire fear and hope. It's him. He's terrifying because of it. It's the conviction. Violently taking down street crime is apart of him working out his anger, depression and demons. Until his character arc tells him he needs to be more than just intimidating and frightening vengeance.

 

[LaRataAlada]

I also felt there was a real lack of "creature of the night" vibes in comparison to when Bale first dons the cowl at the dock scene in Batman Begins or when Keaton slowly descends into frame in Batman 89. this, he just slowly walks out of the darkness. Which is cool, but not scary. This just feels scarier.

The thudding boot stomp and the consistent times he slowly and menacingly struts out of the darkness is EXACTLY that though. Just a more plausible, and honestly realistic interpretation. Way less overtly theatrical. They are all scary in their own way. Based on things people have said, I think 89, and his entrance in The Batman are the creepiest.

 

[Mandon Knight]

How on earth is Batman (1989) an 'early years' Batman film ?

 

[BMW 224]

How on earth is Batman (1989) an 'early years' Batman film ?

He starts as crazy rumoured viganlte and ends the film moving past his parents death and being accepted by Gorham and the police.

I always saw it as one.

How would you categorize 89 ?

 

[Mandon Knight]

He starts as crazy rumoured viganlte and ends the film moving past his parents death and being accepted by Gorham and the police.

I always saw it as one.

How would you categorize 89 ?

I am just saying, he's fully formed, yes there is flash-back for story / audience measure but as far as being alongside the others in this choice, it has none of the same structure forming.

 

[BMW 224]

I am just saying, he's fully formed, yes there is flash-back for story / audience measure but as far as being alongside the others in this choice, it has none of the same structure forming.

I get what your saying now.

 

[LaRataAlada]

How on earth is Batman (1989) an 'early years' Batman film ?

"That's what, 8 sightings now in just UNDER a month? I hear the commissioners even opened a file, true? ~ Knox

That isn't an early Batman film to you? He's just starting. Knox is on the case, and it has just started

Hell, Gotham Police doesn't recieve the bat signal until the very end.

In The Batman, it's there at the start and he's starting Year Two. And already has a journal, and relationship with Gordon.

I'd actually say TB doesn't even belong in this conversation. Year Two for Pattinson is more akin to Bale in TDK.

Begins is an origin movie, yes. B89 isn't but it is early Batman.

 

[noob]

Batman Begins is the best first comic book movie of a franchise, The Batman and 1989 are both great but they don't stand a chance imo.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Batman Begins is the best first movie of a franchise.

*'Raiders of the Lost Ark' has entered the chat*

 

[spideyfan77]

Lol I guess people think it’s cool now to hate Batman now. Figured. It was getting too much love and thought as the best Batman movie which it is. People love to hate on the best

 

[noob]

*'Raiders of the Lost Ark' has entered the chat*

I forgot to put "comic book" in front of movie

 

[BattleAngel]

what

Like… yeah dude, there’s a reason 5 acts are not the norm in cinema. I’m not saying every film needs to adhere to a three act structure, but you don’t typically see films with like 4 climaxes and 3 epilogues being held up as super solid story craft. The El Ratalada subplot? Ridiculous. The reliance on past nostalgia for Alfred and Bruce duos to bring emotional weight to their totally awkward scenes? The totally two dimensional forced romance with cat woman? The shoehorned in and quickly resolved Thomas Wayne murder for hire subplot? This movie had like… 3 spinal chords lol. The “kill your babies” rule of thumb for good writing did not get applied here.

Again, I massively enjoyed the film. But Batman 89 is a screenplay classic with some of the best dialogue of all time, and Batman Begins is just super solid and totally bold all the way through. Both are superior films if looked at just from a story structure angle. (And imho from almost every other angle that counts) - And neither one of them seemed to be homages to any other film that came before them (let alone 2-3 in TB’s case). Stacked up against Reeves’ planet of the apes movies, I vastly prefer the apes just in terms of excellent story and fully realized characters.

The Batman is super fun and I’ll watch all three movies opening night and every episode of the spin-offs. But that is all in spite of its extraordinarily sloppy, self-indulgent plotting.

 

[spideyfan77]

Like… yeah dude, there’s a reason 5 acts are not the norm in cinema. I’m not saying every film needs to adhere to a three act structure, but you don’t typically see films with like 4 climaxes and 3 epilogues being held up as super solid story craft. The El Ratalada subplot? Ridiculous. The reliance on past nostalgia for Alfred and Bruce duos to bring emotional weight to their totally awkward scenes? The totally two dimensional forced romance with cat woman? The shoehorned in and quickly resolved Thomas Wayne murder for hire subplot? This movie had like… 3 spinal chords lol. The “kill your babies” rule of thumb for good writing did not get applied here.

Again, I massively enjoyed the film. But Batman 89 is a screenplay classic with some of the best dialogue of all time, and Batman Begins is just super solid and totally bold all the way through. Both are superior films if looked at just from a story structure angle. (And imho from almost every other angle that counts) - And neither one of them seemed to be homages to any other film that came before them (let alone 2-3 in TB’s case). Stacked up against Reeves’ planet of the apes movies, I vastly prefer the apes just in terms of excellent story and fully realized characters.

The Batman is super fun and I’ll watch all three movies opening night and every episode of the spin-offs. But that is all in spite of its extraordinarily sloppy, self-indulgent plotting.

Again….what?

 

[BattleAngel]

Again….what?

Does it just feel cool to have one word answers without adding any thought out rebuttal? It’s a film discussion forum and I’m offering legit critique. I’m open to being wrong.

Otherwise, seems like fans of The Batman with this aversion to criticism just came up at an age in cinema when storytelling has just been thrown out the window in favor of aesthetics. Please feel free to post a reply with *some* level of thoughtfulness or I’ll assume this describes you as well?

 

[WayneMB]

there’s a reason 5 acts are not the norm in cinema. I’m not saying every film needs to adhere to a three act structure, but you don’t typically see films with like 4 climaxes and 3 epilogues being held up as super solid story craft

there is a very clear 3 act structure lol

The reliance on past nostalgia for Alfred and Bruce duos to bring emotional weight to their totally awkward scenes?

i have no clue what you are on about. none.

The totally two dimensional forced romance with cat woman?

Batman 89 is a screenplay classic with some of the best dialogue of all time, and Batman Begins is just super solid and totally bold all the way through.

batman 89 a screenplay classic? ok man.. and what is bold about begins? love the film but you're wild for that lol. if you wanna call a batman movie bold that would be Batman Returns and The Batman.

 

[spideyfan77]

Does it just feel cool to have one word answers without adding any thought out rebuttal? It’s a film discussion forum and I’m offering legit critique. I’m open to being wrong.

Otherwise, seems like fans of The Batman with this aversion to criticism just came up at an age in cinema when storytelling has just been thrown out the window in favor of aesthetics. Please feel free to post a reply with *some* level of thoughtfulness or I’ll assume this describes you as well?

Literally everything you said, I strongly disagree on? Like there is 3 acts. No idea where the 4 climaxes and 4 epilogues idea come from at all. Bruce and Alfred scene made me tear up like no other Batman movie scene has. Maybe the dark knight rises scene got close but didn’t hit me like this. Batman and Selina had a great relationship throughout the entire movie. This movie was straight up a graphic novel with many subplots going on throughout but still all connected to the main plot and serving up to the main plot.

The dialogue in the opening scene and even ending scene alone destroys all other Batman movies. So again….no idea what your talking about there?

So yeah….I just disagree on everything you said?

 

[BatsAndNights]

Does it just feel cool to have one word answers without adding any thought out rebuttal? It’s a film discussion forum and I’m offering legit critique. I’m open to being wrong.

Otherwise, seems like fans of The Batman with this aversion to criticism just came up at an age in cinema when storytelling has just been thrown out the window in favor of aesthetics. Please feel free to post a reply with *some* level of thoughtfulness or I’ll assume this describes you as well?

Stop portraying your opinions as given facts.

Batman 1989 isn't a "screenplay classic", you just believe it as such.

The Batman doesn't have 5 acts, you just felt like it had 5 acts. The three acts are quite obviously intended to be the initial Riddler investigation, then the mystery of the rat and then Riddler's arrest + destruction of the city.

Also where did this movie have "like 4 climaxes"? The climax is clearly intended to be the final scene at the arena and then you have the Joker + Catwoman scenes as the "epilogues" you mentioned.

If you want people to debate you openly and freely, don't phrase yourself in such a condescending manner.

 

[Matt Parker]

Batman 89 is the weakest of these as a linear story. There is no character arc for Bruce Wayne at all and he is pretty underdeveloped as a character, the pacing is meandering (how many scenes are there of the Joker just doing stuff that doesn’t move the plot forward all that much?), the central romance is pretty flimsy, and none of the characters are especially 3 dimensional.

It is still an incredibly well made and entertaining film with some wonderful sequences, but it doesn’t work as a story at all.

For me, this is really a question of Begins or TB.Honestly, it really comes down to personal preference. They’re so different, even down to pacing. Begins moves at a super tight clip. Almost every scene is just there to communicate the information you need for the story and characters to progress. It has more action and is maybe appealing to a broader audience.

TB is a slow burn. So many scenes are there just to create a mood and a vibe, but it’s also packed with character development, and I think that the characters feel a little more like real people to me. Not that Begins is lacking that, but Nolan’s films are so economical that they don’t spend as much “downtime” with the characters. You don’t really see much of what Gordon is like at home. Rachel is very much a mouthpiece for the altruistic beliefs that influence Bruce.

Comparatively, I think we have a better view of what Selina, Oz, Gordon, and even Bruce himself are like as people. You can imagine what hanging out with them in a social setting would be like.

That is what ultimately pushes TB over the top for me. Not a slight on Begins, which was my favorite movie of all time before a month ago. This might change in a year when TB’s sheen has worn off, but I think for now it’s my favorite.

All 3 of these movies are immensely entertaining and wonderful, so the real winner is fans of Batman.

 

[Tubeofboom]

For me TB is my favorite of the three. Begins is pretty close, but TB is pretty much everything I’ve wanted out of a Batman film. It is reminiscent of the various forms of media in which I have experienced the character over the years ever since I was a kid. From the comics, to the animated series and even over on the film side with the Burton films. It really is like watching a graphic novel come to life with all of the interwoven stories that come together to complete the main through line.

And then there’s the details and nuance and ability to let scenes and moments breathe in the film. That’s one of the things I love so much about TB. I know the film is long, but a lot of the detail made it worth it to sit through, and honestly I could have sat there for another hour or two. I’ll always remember my first viewing. Sitting in the theater grinning from ear to ear under my mask like a little kid because I got the exact feeling and experience I wanted from the film.

While I love BB and adore B89, they haven’t matched as much of what I’ve wanted to see and experience in a Batman film the way TB did for me. Those are still classics though. I’ll watch them many more times in years to come.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I think what sticks out to me in the praise of The Batman is that it's largely about the vibe, the tone, the style, the look and the overall visual feel.

"This looks like a graphic novel!"
"THIS is the style of Batman film I was waiting for!"
"It looks AMAZING."
"It feels so noir and gothic!"

Which yeah, I get it. It's all cool.

But it gives me the impression that to many who praise this film endlessly, they're sort of outing it as being far stronger stylistically and visually than on a story/character front.