The Batman VS Batman Begins VS Batman 1989.

[spideyfan77]

I think what sticks out to me in the praise of The Batman is that it's largely about the vibe, the tone, the style, the look and the overall visual feel.

"This looks like a graphic novel!"
"THIS is the style of Batman film I was waiting for!"
"It looks AMAZING."
"It feels so noir and gothic!"

Which yeah, I get it. It's all cool.

But it gives me the impression that to many who praise this film endlessly, they're sort of outing it as being far stronger stylistically and visually than on a story/character front.

Nope. Not for me. Batman as a character is literally amazing. I loved his arc. I love how he is portrayed. No movie has portrayed him better. Batman is literally a character in this rather than Bruce Wayne. It understands the character as Batman is truly who he is now. And this has Batman as a character rather than action character.

Riddler is fantastic and terrifying. One of the best villains. Penguin literally steals the scenes he is in which is shocking. What little Alfred we get is incredible and powerful. Selina, Gordon, and Falcone are also all awesome. The characters are what makes the movie honestly. It’s a 3 hour movie without much action….yeah it’s all characters and story.

The story to me is incredible as it is literally a graphic novel story with many moving parts. I loved it. But hey film is subjective. So for me…..nope it was incredible!

 

[WayneMB]

I think what sticks out to me in the praise of The Batman is that it's largely about the vibe, the tone, the style, the look and the overall visual feel.

"This looks like a graphic novel!"
"THIS is the style of Batman film I was waiting for!"
"It looks AMAZING."
"It feels so noir and gothic!"

Which yeah, I get it. It's all cool.

But it gives me the impression that to many who praise this film endlessly, they're sort of outing it as being far stronger stylistically and visually than on a story/character front.

that's not true at all lol. people that praise this praise the story almost first and foremost.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

that's not true at all lol. people that praise this praise the story almost first and foremost.

Hard disagree.

Not saying they always forget to praise the story/characters, but it's often praised a lot less than the visuals/tone/vibe.

Is there anything you do acknowledge as either a flaw of the film or can admit is a common criticism...?

 

[Tubeofboom]

I think what sticks out to me in the praise of The Batman is that it's largely about the vibe, the tone, the style, the look and the overall visual feel.

"This looks like a graphic novel!"
"THIS is the style of Batman film I was waiting for!"
"It looks AMAZING."
"It feels so noir and gothic!"

Which yeah, I get it. It's all cool.

But it gives me the impression that to many who praise this film endlessly, they're sort of outing it as being far stronger stylistically and visually than on a story/character front.

I disagree. While the visual style, the influences, the score and tone/feel are on point, the story and characters are what keep me invested. Batman as a character especially gets a lot of growth and a proper arc where he learns a lot within a short period of time. It only excites me more to see how he continues to grow in any of the sequels. If your statement were true, BvS would be one of my all time favorite films. There’s a lot more to this film than just the visual and tonal aspects along with the influences it pulls from.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I disagree. While the visual style, the influences, the score and tone/feel are on point, the story and characters are what keep me invested. Batman as a character especially gets a lot of growth and a proper arc where he learns a lot within a short period of time. It only excites me more to see how he continues to grow in any of the sequels. If your statement were true, BvS would be one of my all time favorite films. There’s a lot more to this film than just the visual and tonal aspects along with the influences it pulls from.

You're misunderstanding.

I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing people praise the most/more.

And I'm also not saying the story/characters aren't good, for the most part.

 

[Tubeofboom]

You're misunderstanding.

I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing people praise the most/more.

And I'm also not saying the story/characters aren't good, for the most part.

Ok fair enough. I can understand that.

 

[BatsAndNights]

You're misunderstanding.

I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing people praise the most/more.

And I'm also not saying the story/characters aren't good, for the most part.

To be fair, given the gargantuan push for comic movies to actually look good ever since probably around Infinity War, it's only natural that people are gonna talk A LOT about it here when this movie frankly looks ****ing gorgeous. There's plenty of great comic book and even great Batman movies with great stories and characters. But we haven't had a comic movie that both looked utterly gorgeous like this and was a good movie since, what? Dark Knight Rises?

Correlation doesn't equal causation

 

[onetimeposter]

After my third viewing of The Batman. It quickly became clear to me how plain and boring the story is. It aped everything that came before it and it doesn’t help that it’s three hours long. At least there was Penguin to add some actual fun. The sullen grim dark tone gets stale when there’s nothing innovative in the storytelling or characters.

everything this film does I can get from the Nolan films or even the burton ones. Heck, I even got more out of the Alfred and Bruce emotional scene in Batman and Robin.

 

[onetimeposter]

To be fair, given the gargantuan push for comic movies to actually look good ever since probably around Infinity War, it's only natural that people are gonna talk A LOT about it here when this movie frankly looks ****ing gorgeous. There's plenty of great comic book and even great Batman movies with great stories and characters. But we haven't had a comic movie that both looked utterly gorgeous like this and was a good movie since, what? Dark Knight Rises?

Correlation doesn't equal causation[/QUOTE



Logan: Am I a Joke to you?

TDKR was lacking in the visual department aside from that opening plane scene. Also it’s not that good. We’ve gotten plenty of better comic films since TDKR.

 

[BatsAndNights]

A fair shout, I completely forgot about Logan lmao

Although Logan is also such a massive deconstruction of Wolverine and the superhero film that even calling it that feels...weird. It's basically a dystopian Western with a dude who happens to have metal claws.

The Batman is arguably the first actual "superhero" movie since TDKR which was both a solid film and looked as good as it does.

And yes, TDKR does look fantastic. I dunno what you're talking about

 

[onetimeposter]

TDKR is overall a good looking film but compared to BB, TDK and even TB. It was lacking for me.

 

[Filmfreak]

I thought it was the most beautiful looking film out of the trilogy, personally.

 

[Rick190293]

TDKR is beautiful visually. The whole trilogy. But I'm very happy with Reevesverse looks.

 

[onetimeposter]

Took a look at a list of comic superhero films since TDKR and there’s a bunch that look great (mostly) visually and is a strong film story wise.

The following:

The Suicide Squad
Shang Chi
Into the spider-verse
ZSJL
Infinity War
Black Panther (nominated for best cinematography)
Thor Ragnarok
Wonder Woman
Guardians of galaxy 1 & 2
Days of future past
and…
TDKR

quality will vary person to person but general consensus of the aforementioned fit the bill of films that look and feel strong in the last 10 years that are superhero films. Batman is not the only one. Saying otherwise is pure bias.

I rest my case.

 

[WayneMB]

Took a look at a list of comic superhero films since TDKR and there’s a bunch that look great (mostly) visually and is a strong film story wise.

The following:

The Suicide Squad
Shang Chi
Into the spider-verse
ZSJL
Infinity War
Black Panther (nominated for best cinematography)
Thor Ragnarok
Wonder Woman
Guardians of galaxy 1 & 2
Days of future past
and…
TDKR

quality will vary person to person but general consensus of the aforementioned fit the bill of films that look and feel strong in the last 10 years that are superhero films. Batman is not the only one. Saying otherwise is pure bias.

I rest my case.

none of these come close to The Batman when it comes to cinematography. not counting into the spiderverse since it's animation.

 

[spideyfan77]

none of these come close to The Batman when it comes to cinematography. not counting into the spiderverse since it's animation.

That list is quite awful honestly…..not many pretty films there. Batman destroys them.

 

[WayneMB]

That list is quite awful honestly…..not many pretty films there. Batman destroys them.

yeah, same. didn't wanna say that. many of them have beautiful sequences but aren't so good all the way through. out of all of them i think i'd call Guardians the best looking marvel films.

 

[onetimeposter]

The bias in this thread is strong and into the spider verse absolutely counts.

I never once said these films were better visually than The Batman. I was simply providing a list of films that are both strong visually and has a good story that are in the same ballpark as TDKR in the last 10 years.


Also The Batman has its fair share of weaknesses too. It’s not a visually flawless film like all of you think. The winged suit scene and the entire final battle are weak compared to the rest of the film.

 

[WayneMB]

not agreeing with your weirdly unusual opinion = bias. ok man lol

 

[onetimeposter]

How is it a weirdly unusual opinion to think the films I mentioned have good visuals and a good story?

if anything it seems unusual to highly declare the films I mentioned as “awful” according to someone. I mean awful is like the early fantastic four and captain America stuff. That’s awful.

In the end, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. No use arguing. Cheers

EDIT: if you think The Batman is the best thing ever visually to happen to the superhero films then awesome!! That’s a valid opinion. But to say TB (and TDKR according to some) is the only good looking film in the last 10 years definitely screams bias. Personal feelings aside, How does it not?

 

[C Prometheus]

I think some fans, like myself, may feel that The Batman is the *type* of Batman film we've wanted for a long time.

But while it nails the type of style many of us want, it doesn't nail the quality.

Not as much as I'd hoped.

Batman Begins embodied the type of Batman film I wanted at that time AND embodied the quality, all around.

I can't agree. Begins has some flaws and I really don't know if it ranks second or third between it and Batman 89. Granted, it's like comparing three similar and wonderfully made watches. None of these films are bad. Hell, they're not even 'middling.'

But for all the hoopla I keep seeing about how the praise for The Batman is just motivated by that darn "Recency Bias" coming into play again, I can't help but sense a very potent nostalgia tint in the perception for Nolan's films from some folks. Which isn't bad, after all the Nolan trilogy is a key reason for why we're all here and getting to have a wide variety of stylistically different approaches to the same mythology from multiple talented filmmakers.

And I know I've shouted it up and down across multiple threads by now, but the Nolan films all mean a great deal to me. I was there in Summer 2005 opening night when Batman Begins first hit theaters. I saw it at least five or six times in the theaters that summer, completely unaware that the film apparently underperformed at the box office and that fans online had no idea if a sequel was even going to be made.

That period from late 2004 and the first half of 2005 leading up to Begins' release is when I went from being a kid who knew Batman mostly from the Animated Series and faded memories of the Schumacher films to diving all in on the mythology. I got all four of the Burton-Schumacher films on DVD and binged them all over and over. I went to the local library and book stores to check out or buy as many Batman comics as I could get my hands on.

Batman Begins has a lot of great things going for it. There's certain things it does far, far better than the subsequent films in the Nolan trilogy. It's easily Bale's finest turn in the role. It has the best of the Nolan Batsuits. Gotham City looks like Gotham. Katie Holmes has better chemistry with Bale as Rachel than Maggie Gyllenhaal did in TDK. The movie gave us that glorious meme of a Nickelback romance-drama commercial.

But it ain't perfect. And as fantastic as it is, it isn't the "Best First Film in a Superhero Series" either. Just look at Superman: The Movie. Or Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse. Or, at the risk of cheating a bit, The Incredibles.

For me, the thing that just keeps getting in the way as I get older and revisit the Nolan trilogy is that Christopher Nolan has an almost crippling problem with exposition and rarely feeling like he can trust audiences to just infer the subtext or morals of his stories. And granted, it's masked a bit with just how damn cool sounding a lot of those exposition lines sound- but it's still Telling, not Showing.

Just look at how Begins handles the Bruce-Batman conflict. There's some entertaining dialogue shared between Bruce and Alfred after the Batmobile chase that talks about the idea that Bruce is getting lost in this alternate identity he's created... but it never once feels like Bruce isn't in total control of himself. Hell, between Begins and TDK, Bruce is repeatedly shown as looking for that day when he gets to quit being Batman and settle down with Rachel Dawes.

Contrast that with how Burton or Reeves handle it. With Burton, Bruce makes awkward slip ups in dialogue and starts to head to parts of the manor that presumably lead to the Batcave... while just completely forgetting that said spots are populated by a bunch of visitors at the moment. Or with Reeves, where the longest sequence of Bruce outside of the Batsuit (the Funeral sequence) has him struggling between trying to spot and pick up on clues and suspects of the case as Batman and what seems to potentially be reactions to the crowds around Bruce as he seems to be struggling with potential aspects of his implied mental disorder(s).

 

[The Joker]

Just look at how Begins handles the Bruce-Batman conflict. There's some entertaining dialogue shared between Bruce and Alfred after the Batmobile chase that talks about the idea that Bruce is getting lost in this alternate identity he's created... but it never once feels like Bruce isn't in total control of himself. Hell, between Begins and TDK, Bruce is repeatedly shown as looking for that day when he gets to quit being Batman and settle down with Rachel Dawes.

Contrast that with how Burton or Reeves handle it. With Burton, Bruce makes awkward slip ups in dialogue and starts to head to parts of the manor that presumably lead to the Batcave... while just completely forgetting that said spots are populated by a bunch of visitors at the moment. Or with Reeves, where the longest sequence of Bruce outside of the Batsuit (the Funeral sequence) has him struggling between trying to spot and pick up on clues and suspects of the case as Batman and what seems to potentially be reactions to the crowds around Bruce as he seems to be struggling with potential aspects of his implied mental disorder(s).

I want to tackle this point you raised here. Bale's Bruce Wayne masks himself in a playboy act. Just like Kevin Conroy's Bruce in BTAS. That's how they hide that they are losing themselves in being Batman. They put on a facade for the public. It doesn't mean they are not consumed by their crusade as Batman. It just means they've learned to hide it.

The Burton and Reeves' versions of Bruce Wayne don't go that route. Reeves' version may do so in the sequels. But for now his Bruce Wayne is an isolated loner who doesn't do anything socially. He's not created his 'mask' for the public. Burton's Bruce Wayne isn't even recognized by the Gotham City press. Knox had no idea he was talking to Bruce Wayne until he introduces himself. These versions of the character make no attempt to divert suspicion from themselves. They make no real distinction between their Batman and Bruce Wayne side.

 

[C Prometheus]

I want to tackle this point you raised here. Bale's Bruce Wayne masks himself in a playboy act. Just like Kevin Conroy's Bruce in BTAS. That's how they hide that they are losing themselves in being Batman. They put on a facade for the public. It doesn't mean they are not consumed by their crusade as Batman. It just means they've learned to hide it.

The Burton and Reeves' versions of Bruce Wayne don't go that route. Reeves' version may do so in the sequels. But for now his Bruce Wayne is an isolated loner who doesn't do anything socially. He's not created his 'mask' for the public. Burton's Bruce Wayne isn't even recognized by the Gotham City press. Knox had no idea he was talking to Bruce Wayne until he introduces himself. These versions of the character make no attempt to divert suspicion from themselves.

I don't agree at all. It's not about "how Bruce opts to hide his nightly activities as Batman" that's being discussed, it's the matter of how consuming the crusade of Batman is for Bruce's identity. Hell, the scene I listed as an example from Begins isn't even a moment where Bruce has to hide away from anything. It's a private moment between him and Alfred. It's the same problem with the last conversation between Bruce and Rachel in the ending of Begins too.

The dialogue is there. They talk about how Bruce is lost in this creation of his. But Nolan doesn't show it to us. And as a result, I'm never really sold on that being the case with Batman Begins. Nolan got a bit better with it in key segments in TDK and TDKR, but it was still never quite convincing enough for me.

 

[The Joker]

I don't agree at all. It's not about "how Bruce opts to hide his nightly activities as Batman" that's being discussed, it's the matter of how consuming the crusade of Batman is for Bruce's identity. Hell, the scene I listed as an example from Begins isn't even a moment where Bruce has to hide away from anything. It's a private moment between him and Alfred. It's the same problem with the last conversation between Bruce and Rachel in the ending of Begins too.

The dialogue is there. They talk about how Bruce is lost in this creation of his. But Nolan doesn't show it to us. And as a result, I'm never really sold on that being the case with Batman Begins. Nolan got a bit better with it in key segments in TDK and TDKR, but it was still never quite convincing enough for me.

I'm well aware of what is being discussed. How he hides his Batman activities is how he hides he's consumed by being Batman. He's good at putting on an act. Because he isn't stumbling on words, or socially awkward doesn't mean he is not mentally consumed by being Batman. It just means he's good at hiding it as Bruce Wayne.

Whether you find it convincing or not is your own issue, but the movies show us that he is consumed by being Batman since every action he does revolves around his crusade as Batman. Even to the point of utilizing his Bruce Wayne playboy persona to service it e.g. creating an alibi by running off on a luxury yacht with the Russian ballet when he heads off to Hong Kong to get Lau.

 

[C Prometheus]

I'm well aware of what is being discussed. How he hides his Batman activities is how he hides he's consumed by being Batman. He's good at putting on an act. Because he isn't stumbling on words, or socially awkward doesn't mean he is not mentally consumed by being Batman. It just means he's good at hiding it as Bruce Wayne.

Whether you find it convincing or not is your own issue, but the movie shows us that he is consumed by being Batman since every action he does revolves around his crusade as Batman. Even to the point of utilizing his Bruce Wayne playboy persona to service it e.g. creating an alibi by running off on a luxury yacht with the Russian ballet when he heads off to Hong Kong to get Lau.

And yet it’s all being contradicted in Begins and TDK by how Bruce has his sights on passing the torch over to Harvey and retiring from being Batman so he can be with Rachel. Nolan’s Bruce has a bit too much of an Everyman quality about him and too much emphasis being put into his longing for the time after Batman and that contradicts the accusations being made to Bruce.

Bruce being laser focused on his goal of Batman is a good start and I agree that TDK has moments throughout that back up that idea… but again, it’s undercut by the fact that the audience knows that Bruce doesn’t want to be Batman forever and is actively looking for a way out. That in and of itself undermines the entire idea of Bruce being “lost” in the persona of Batman.

I don’t mind alternate depictions of a character, especially when they’re done well. I like Bale’s Bruce and I love his arc. But as a whole, the films just don’t sell me on that particular part of Bruce’s character and it frustrates me that Nolan generally just resorts to telling us that Bruce is lost in Batman, instead of consistently showing us.