Ant-Man The best way that Marvel can fix this

[The Question]

sure. but what would your hunch be; knowing what you know about Wright's vision for the Ant-Man movie?

My hunch would be that he's been working with Marvel Studios on this script for eight years, well into the MCU's establishment as a thing. There's no way there aren't already connective elements to the other Marvel movies that have been in the script for quite a while now. That wouldn't make any sense. As soon as they decided to film Nick Fury's stinger in the first Iron Man movie, I'm pretty sure Kevin Feige stuck his head in Wright's office and said "Hey Edgar, we're going to try and connect the movies together into one continuity. When you've got a sec, let's go over places where you can fit in references to a wider Marvel universe that wouldn't interfere with your story. Hank Pym mentioning SHIELD, maybe setting a scene in a property owned by Stark Industries, that sort of thing. I've got some notes about long-term plot stuff we have in mind that we should go over."

And nothing about Wright's vision for the Ant-Man movie suggests that he'd want to cut all ties to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

 

[Ant-manic]

My hunch would be that he's been working with Marvel Studios on this script for eight years, well into the MCU's establishment as a thing. There's no way there aren't already connective elements to the other Marvel movies that have been in the script for quite a while now. That wouldn't make any sense. As soon as they decided to film Nick Fury's stinger in the first Iron Man movie, I'm pretty sure Kevin Feige stuck his head in Wright's office and said "Hey Edgar, we're going to try and connect the movies together into one continuity. When you've got a sec, let's go over places where you can fit in references to a wider Marvel universe that wouldn't interfere with your story. Hank Pym mentioning SHIELD, maybe setting a scene in a property owned by Stark Industries, that sort of thing. I've got some notes about long-term plot stuff we have in mind that we should go over."

And nothing about Wright's vision for the Ant-Man movie suggests that he'd want to cut all ties to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

fair enough. t:

 

[DrCosmic]

It's all about the execution. Iron Man 1 was nothing special. Guy gets to see what his weaponry does to the world and decides to use his brain and tech to fight it back. Iron Man 3 broke the mold and it was really different. Is Iron Man 3 a good film? I don't know. I liked it. It's not that bad as some people make it look like, but despite being different and creative, it's not as good as Iron Man 1.

Iron Man 1 was special, because it basically defined the now typical superhero origin movie which we have seen at least a half dozen times in the six year period since, but before that, it had not been seen once before in the previous six years. Execution is a necessary factor, but being a well executed version of something that is constantly being well executed anyway doesn't get you very far.

Iron Man 3 is a good film at 78% fresh. Avenger also broke the mold, as did The Dark Knight. You know what films didn't break the mold at all? Green Lantern and Captain America The First Avenger. Even Thor and Batman Begins played around with the chronology a bit. So being not utterly typical is another necessary factor.

You want both. Iron Man 1 had both, it was not typical because of the time frame it was released in AND it was well executed. Having just one leads to a much more limited success. Saying it's all about the execution is like saying it's all about the actors. Yes, you need great actors, but you also need a good script. If the script is lousy, you may not even be able to get good actors. Likewise, if you don't have a fresh idea, then you may not get even the people working on the film excited enough to do a great execution. No one gives their all to make Iron Man-lite.

Yes, as you said the other time, ''they could be lying'' is probably not a good argument. But it doesn't mean they're telling everything. Like I said that time, you can't expect them to spill it all during an interview. I'm not saying Stark won't have a hand on Ultron. All I'm saying is it's not going to be that simple. With the reports of the AoU crew filming in locations such an old hospital and that scene in the 40s with Bettany, Evans and Atwell, I won't be surprised if Ultron's origins come from something the Avengers and those related to them did through all those years. I recall Scarlett Johanson giving a brief description about the film, with ''past catching up to these characters''. That would make it more interesting than Tony Stark deciding to create a new AI.

I never excluded other elements being involved. But when someone is asked a question, and they give a direct answer, but the truth is that the answer is different, I call that a lie. If I ask you what kind of shirt you're wearing, and you go on to describe how red your shirt is, I'm not going to look for the guy with the red and blue striped shirt. When we meet, and I say 'Oh, I thought you said a red shirt' and you say 'well, there was no reason to assume that I gave you all the information, and besides, I wanted to surprise you' I'm going to, inwardly, curse your savage cruel idiocy and never trust anything you say again, since you answer direction questions with verbose half truths, which is no truth at all.

Stark creating the Ultron AI will be just that simple, because to complicate that part is a waste of space. Now that AI going bad, and how different aspects of the team's history makes that happen, that will be interesting to watch, but it will not change who creates Ultron, which is why when asked about that, we are given Stark references. Because when it comes down to who makes Ultron, there's only one reasonable answer. It's not until we ask who makes Ultron free or who makes Ultron evil that we start to get into the interesting part, and even then, it still comes more from the Avengers we know, and less from, y'know anyone else.

Because if you say your shirt is mostly red and come to find out it's equally red and blue, I might actually curse out loud.

To be honest, I don't think this is going to be a big problem. We're not going to see the team filled with 20+ people. Rotating the roster makes the Avengers something really cool.

Even rotating the roster, the big 4 cover a lot of ground. Fitting someone into that is a challenge.

 

[DrCosmic]

Granted it's not something to aspire to,but my only point is it's not necessarily a recipe for disaster,the way it's made out to be,to re-write a script in a limited amount of time.

If I remember correctly,Wrath of Khan was re-written in a matter of a couple weeks.

Again, small rewrites, like tweaking a supporting character in Wrath of Khan, can be done last minute and done well. But doing a lot of work in a little amount of time leads to suckitdue, not just unenviableness, suckitude. Unless the rewrite is a small change that has limited impact on the film overall, it takes time to do well.

So I agree that small rewrites are not a recipe for disaster, but de aging your mentor into a peer and/or depowering the source for your legacy hero is not a small rewrite, by any means. It cannot be done well in a short period of time.

Frankly,there's nothing typical about Pym,but even so,the so called "typical-superhero-movie" thing has worked for Marvel how many times now?It's things like GotG that have people biting their nails over Marvel having their first flop.

It's worked twice. TIH flopped. IM2 was a team up movie. Thor flipped the chronology and inverted the hero's journey. Avengers was a team up movie, IM3 was a Tony Stark movie, Thor 2 was a Loki adventure movie, Cap 2 was a team up movie, and the other success, Captain America TFA was scarcely successful, the second least popular film ahead only of TIH.

Pym having some unique qualities doesn't mean there's nothing typical about him. Does he have a form fitting costume? Is he a scientist superhero? So there's some typical stuff about him.

Basically I've been behind everything Marvel has done apart from Hank Pym.I wasn't thrilled with Mandarin,but ironically,it didn't take them long to right the ship on that one...

Remember, the question you quoted is: why? What makes some changes good and other changes bad? Why is it okay to change Fury's race, but not Pym's age? Why is it okay to change Rhodey's codename, but not Pym's age? Why is it okay to change Cap's costume, Peggy's role, Bucky's age, but not Pym's age, not Pym's role?

Because unless the film takes place 35 years from now,you've isolated the character to a place of not being able to interact with his peers as an equal.If it were simply a case of "Batman Beyond-ing" Pym,with the intent of using "modern Pym" in the MCU,I'd have no objections.(I'm sorta kinda guessing this is the "Mandarin-esq" resolution Marvel/Disney is going for.

How is Pym being superior to the Avengers in knowledge and experience instead of an equal a disservice??? How is he isolated just because he's older? Is there an age limit to having conversations with the Avengers? Did anyone tell Thor? Seriously, spell that out, because there's nothing young Pym can do that old Pym can't, and there's lots that Old Pym can do that Young Pym can't, so what's the disservice?

The only resolution Disney is looking for is finding a new director. They have no other problems, especially with Wright's take on Pym's age and 'elder statesman' position in the MCU. I really wish you and others would stop projecting your desires onto Disney/Marvel.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Captain America TFA was scarcely successful, the second least popular film ahead only of TIH.

Wait, what? Based on what?

 

[TheVision]

The fact Wright had since 2006 to sync his vision up with the current MCU just makes me realize Marvel was very smart for not making the film with him. If his ideas were awesome/on point they wouldve gone forward with it. They just didnt mesh and it sounds like he tried to fix it himself previously and still wasnt successful. Marvel cant just throw away a huge franchise on one guy.

As Tony Stark once said, this is about legacy:

[YT]75NLx7v-a3Y[/YT]

 

[Mysteryman]

The fact Wright had since 2006 to sync his vision up with the current MCU just makes me realize Marvel was very smart for not making the film with him. If his ideas were awesome/on point they wouldve gone forward with it. They just didnt mesh and it sounds like he tried to fix it himself previously and still wasnt successful. Marvel cant just throw away a huge franchise on one guy.

As Tony Stark once said, this is about legacy:

[YT]75NLx7v-a3Y[/YT]

Did Marvel choose not to make the film with him or did Wright choose to leave?
We have no way of knowing , we may never know for sure .

 

[djsunyc]

this is quite perplexing why this has happened so late in the process. we need a tell all at some point to discuss what exactly went down. sounds like wright wanted his own solo project and fit to the MCU be damned.

 

[The Question]

Remember, the question you quoted is: why? What makes some changes good and other changes bad? Why is it okay to change Fury's race, but not Pym's age? Why is it okay to change Rhodey's codename, but not Pym's age? Why is it okay to change Cap's costume, Peggy's role, Bucky's age, but not Pym's age, not Pym's role?

Why is it okay that Nick Fury never fought in WWII and was never a member of the Howling Commandoes, but it's not okay that Hank Pym's timeframe has changed and he was never a member of The Avengers?

 

[DrCosmic]

Wait, what? Based on what?

Budget 140M,
176M Domestic, 193M Foreign

I sounds like 200+M profit, but after marketing and foreign distribution cuts, the number actually comes out very modest. It was successful mind you, but the success wasn't nearly as significant as the non-typical Thor, with it's 449M worldwide.

 

[TheVision]

The thing about Ant Man is the majority of people going to see this movie will have NO IDEA who this character is. Im a Marvel fan and I really dont know a lot about him since I mainly read Spidey, Punisher, Wolverine, Hulk. So even moreso than Iron Man, they have to make this guy VERY VERY likable and cool. This is going to be another Guardians situation where it has to ride the line between crazy offbeat stuff and highly mainstream at the same time. I dont think Wright has made a really successful mainstream film yet, maybe he was still trying to do his quirky smaller indie comedy ideas and it just wasnt on a scale to be a box office hit for the MCU. Although James Gunn comes from the same place, so it doesnt matter.

We'll be speculating about this forever. Hopefully someday Kevin Feige will tell us what really happened and why.

 

[SpideyFan866]

this is quite perplexing why this has happened so late in the process. we need a tell all at some point to discuss what exactly went down. sounds like wright wanted his own solo project and fit to the MCU be damned.

Essentially.


When the film was first written, it was gonna be like all the pre-MCU films, and be self contained. But once Marvel threw the wrench in that it had to be connected to other MCU films, Wright was uncomfortable and didn't want to budge. Fine....... but pair that with a Marvel Studios that has had to wait 8 years before production has even started, and has had to compromise certain story and character threads, you have a VERY volatile situation coming to a head when Marvel's ultimate vision clashes with Wright's.

Simply, Wright wanted to make Ant-Man as he would've 8 years ago. And in more ways than one, Marvel has progressed past that version even conceivably being made.

 

[The Question]

Essentially.


When the film was first written, it was gonna be like all the preMCU films, and be self contained.

And once Marvel threw that wrench in, Wright was uncomfortable and didn't want to budge. Fine, but pair that with a Marvel Studios that has had to wait 8 years before production has even started, and has had to compromise certain story and character threads, you have a VERY volatile situation coming to a head when Marvel's ultimate vision clashes with Wright's.


Simply, Wright wanted to make Ant-Man as he would've 8 years ago. And in more ways than one, Marvel has progressed past that.

That doesn't make any sense. The MCU became a thing years ago. There's no way they didn't have a conversation about this when the first Iron Man film was being made.

 

[SpideyFan866]

That doesn't make any sense. The MCU became a thing years ago. There's no way they didn't have a conversation about this when the first Iron Man film was being made.

They most certainly did. But that doesn't mean that Wright was or ever has been willing to budge on what he wanted for the film. MCU connection or not.

And considering that, back then, Marvel was in no position to part ways with him and get someone else on the project (he was the only person who even wanted it), they just stuck with him.


But fast forward 8 years....... things are a little different.

 

[The Question]

They most certainly did. But that doesn't mean that Wright was or ever has been willing to budge on what he wanted for the film. MCU connection or not.

Then he and Marvel would have parted ways around the time that the first Iron Man film was being made. There's no way they continued to work together for years after it became clear to both parties that they wanted mutually exclusive things. That's not how making movies works.

 

[TheVision]

The perplexing thing is how they never came to a solid agreement/disagreement on how the film should be years ago and just recently split before going into production. Its such a WTF situation.

 

[The Question]

Feige mustve seen what Wright was doing all these years. The perplexing thing is how they never came to a solid agreement on how the film should be years ago and just recently split before going into production. Its such a WTF situation.

Maybe they did, and you guys are just assuming that this is about Wright wanting it to be a standalone film.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Then he and Marvel would have parted ways around the time that the first Iron Man film was being made. There's no way they continued to work together for years after it became clear to both parties that they wanted mutually exclusive things. That's not how making movies works.

Again, back then (especially with the Ant-Man franchise), Marvel Studios was absolutely in NO position to tell Wright what he could or couldn't do with it, nor could they part ways with him.

Wright was the first and ONLY director to show interest in that project. They had no other options then. "Then" being a time when they were still gambling with their future as an independent studio, and had limited options for all of their projects. Though, none as limited as Ant-Man.

So that said, being in a position now to tell him no if they don't agree with his vision, and to seek out other talent for the job should they see fit, things have changed.

Since 2006, Marvel has become a billion dollar studio, with hit after hit under their belt.

So, unlike in 2006, they have the luxury of saying "No."

 

[The Question]

Again, back then (especially with the Ant-Man franchise), Marvel Studios was absolutely in NO position to tell Wright what he could or couldn't do with it, nor could they part ways with him.

Wright was the first and ONLY director to show interest in that project. They had no other options then. "Then" being a time when they were still gambling with their future as an independent studio, and had limited options for all of their projects. Though, none as limited as Ant-Man.

So that said, being in a position now to tell him no if they don't agree with his vision, and to seek out other talent for the job should they see fit, things have changed.

Since 2006, Marvel has become a billion dollar studio, with hit after hit under their belt.

So, unlike in 2006, they have the luxury of saying "No."

Two things:

1: Even if that's true, any issues about Wright wanting the film to be standalone would have come to a head as soon as The Avengers had become the smash hit that it did. They didn't, so assuming that this is because Wright wanted the film to be a standalone and it only now became an issue is absurd.

2: That's not how making movies works. Finding a new director and new writers isn't hard for a major movie studio. As soon as Disney bought Marvel, they were the ones who had all of the leverage in this relationship, and that happened years ago.

Plus, there's the fact that Wright talked about rewrites to the script to integrate it more fully into the MCU around the time Marvel was gearing up for the Avengers.

The assumption that this is because Wright didn't want his film to be a part of the MCU makes no sense.

 

[TheVision]

Im not really assuming it was because of a standalone film, more that his general ideas on the film just didnt fit with the MCU.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Maybe they did, and you guys are just assuming that this is about Wright wanting it to be a standalone film.

They did agree on it being standalone, yet still set in the MCU.


Even at SDCC 2012, when the film was formally announced for Phase 3, Wright was still saying that, despite being in the MCU, it was a standalone story.

And that was emphasized again last year (following the 'Age of Ultron' SDCC 2013 announcement) when Wright was asked would Hank Pym have anything to do with Ultron's creation.

Marvel was fine with Wright's desire for the film to be standalone (though it had to be set within the MCU). But its everything else Wright wanted to bring to the table that made Marvel finally say no, and push for something else.

 

[The Question]

Im not really assuming it was because of a standalone film, more that his general ideas on the film just didnt fit with the MCU.

Which is still a baseless assumption that makes no sense when you look at the history of the project, Marvel Studios, and the formation of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

What are these "general ideas" you're referring to?

They did agree on it being standalone, yet still set in the MCU.


Even at SDCC 2012, when the film was formally announced for Phase 3, Wright was still saying that, despite being in the MCU, it was a standalone story.

Which is the case with Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, and Captain America: The First Avenger. The movie introducing Ant Man being a self contained story within the wider Marvel Universe is how Marvel Studios has done things so far.

And that was emphasized last year (following the 'Age of Ultron' SDCC 2013 announcement) when Wright was asked would Hank Pym have anything to do with Ultron's creation.

Which was a creative decision made by Feige, Whedon, and Wright because Hank Pym wasn't in the first Avengers film and it wouldn't make sense from a narrative standpoint for Ultron's creator to be a character the audience has never met before

Marvel was fine with Wright's desire for the film to be standalone (though it has to be set within the MCU). But its everything else Wright wanted to bring to the table that made Marvel finally say no, and push for something else.

1: How do you know that?

2: What is this "everything else" you're talking about?

 

[TheVision]

What are these "general ideas" you're referring to?

Story/tone/structure/Visual Style. You dont have writers alter the script this close to production unless its really not what you want.

 

[The Question]

Story/tone/structure/Visual Style. You dont alter the script this close to production unless its really not what you want.

1: All of the Marvel movies have had different stories/tones/structures/visual styles. That's part of their appeal.

2: You don't alter the script this close to production if you have problems with things that were in the pitch to the movie.

3: We don't actually know for sure if the script was altered last minutes.

4: If it was, we don't know who ordered the rewrite or what their reasoning was.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Story/tone/structure/Visual Style. You dont alter the script this close to production unless its really not what you want.

This.

The finer details of a film.


And considering that the Ant-Man script has been in constant revision since it was first written, its not hard to imagine that (in the lead up to production) Marvel and Wright were clashing as to what it would be when it came time to film.