Infinity War The Black Widow Thread

[Xeno]

Natasha wasn't responsible for anyone going to jail. She spent a lot of time trying to convince Steve to work within the law instead of running off after Barnes like a fool. Steve was the one who convinced his team that they had to go to Siberia without realizing that he was being manipulated into doing what Zemo wanted. If anything, they should blame Steve for leading them into that disaster and themselves for breaking the law on his say-so simply because he was Captain America and they trusted him.

 

[ScarlettW]

I'm gonna speculate that it was cut once Spider-Man was confirmed and Marvel decided they wanted to showcase their new golden boy. It sucks that the most conflicted person between the two sides was mostly cut out of the film's big set piece.


I'm curious to see if Sam, Wanda and the other fugitive Avengers harbor a lot of mistrust and resentment for Widow after she was partially responsible for putting them in jail.

She is not responsible for them going to jail. They refused to sign the Accords, so they all knew the consequences of their actions. Please see these people as adults.
Steve warned Scott about what would happen if he helped his team; He makes it very clear to Scott he would be seen as a criminal. Everyone else knew this, but they were there to stop the super soldiers.

There is no one to blame for what happened. Zemo manipulated all of them to believe in the history of the super-soldiers, who actually existed.
Even Tony, knowing that Zemo killed the psychiatrist, and that what Steve said could be true, he breaks the Accords to go to Siberia.

She is not responsible for the raft, she's not responsible for creating the Accords, she just signed. She's not even in favor of the accords, she just agreed with the intention to keep everything ok, but she says they'll always need the avengers. She says the avengers would find a way to help people with or without approval.

 

[Capsfan]

In my opinion, pretty much everyone makes mistakes in CW based on selfishness. Everyone, including BW.
Yes, she isn't responsible for team Cap being put into the Raft, but she didn't care about Bucky's life and passively tried to get rid of him, even though she allegedly knows how much Bucky means to Steve.

I'm gonna speculate that it was cut once Spider-Man was confirmed and Marvel decided they wanted to showcase their new golden boy. It sucks that the most conflicted person between the two sides was mostly cut out of the film's big set piece.

Now people like to blame Spidey for all the deleted scenes.
The Russos actually talked about why this scene didn't make the cut, and it wasn't because of Spidey. But tbh, I don't actually remember their reason. Too lazy to search for that interview.

There is no one to blame for what happened. Zemo manipulated all of them to believe in the history of the super-soldiers, who actually existed.
Even Tony, knowing that Zemo killed the psychiatrist, and that what Steve said could be true, he breaks the Accords to go to Siberia.

I don't blame Steve, I understand why he did what he did. However, I see no evidence in the movie that Zemo actually manipulated them with 5WS. He knew they gonna go after him due to the UN bombing, but he didn't know about the super-soldiers until he came to that base.
Tony breaks the Accords mostly to help Steve. I think, he would have handled the situation differently had Steve not interfered.

I think the one to blame for Zemo is Berlin counterterrorism centre. They were horrible at doing their job. They allowed the real terrorist to enter their building without any proper research or investigation. Even after the incident with Bucky's escape they did nothing useful.

 

[Kev4000]

SJ was injured by a stunt and could not make all Action secquences at the air port I readed. Maybe that is the reason for that unrealized Scene.

 

[AvengerPA]

Tony and Natasha didn't put their friends in the Raft. They took Rhodey to the hospital, and while they were doing that Thunderbolt Ross and his men came along and imprisoned their teammates. Black Panther ten told Ross what Natasha did to help Steve escape, and then Natasha was in trouble too.

 

[ScarlettW]

In my opinion, pretty much everyone makes mistakes in CW based on selfishness. Everyone, including BW.
Yes, she isn't responsible for team Cap being put into the Raft, but she didn't care about Bucky's life and passively tried to get rid of him, even though she allegedly knows how much Bucky means to Steve.

Now people like to blame Spidey for all the deleted scenes.
The Russos actually talked about why this scene didn't make the cut, and it wasn't because of Spidey. But tbh, I don't actually remember their reason. Too lazy to search for that interview.

I don't blame Steve, I understand why he did what he did. However, I see no evidence in the movie that Zemo actually manipulated them with 5WS. He knew they gonna go after him due to the UN bombing, but he didn't know about the super-soldiers until he came to that base.
Tony breaks the Accords mostly to help Steve. I think, he would have handled the situation differently had Steve not interfered.

I think the one to blame for Zemo is Berlin counterterrorism centre. They were horrible at doing their job. They allowed the real terrorist to enter their building without any proper research or investigation. Even after the incident with Bucky's escape they did nothing useful.

Why would she care about Bucky? He tried to kill her. She knew he meant a lot to Steve, but thought he was still acting like a terrorist even after the end of the Hydra. She only cares about Steve and keeps the Avengers together.

Zemo asked Bucky about Siberia, about the other soldiers. He already knew because he did a search. He used this to make Bucky think that he would use these supersoldiers against the world. He knew Steve would go after soldiers because he studied Steve.

Tony breaks the Accords many times. He didn't believe in the Accords, it was just an excuse he used.

 

[nickelette424]

In my opinion, pretty much everyone makes mistakes in CW based on selfishness. Everyone, including BW.
Yes, she isn't responsible for team Cap being put into the Raft, but she didn't care about Bucky's life and passively tried to get rid of him, even though she allegedly knows how much Bucky means to Steve.

Now people like to blame Spidey for all the deleted scenes.
The Russos actually talked about why this scene didn't make the cut, and it wasn't because of Spidey. But tbh, I don't actually remember their reason. Too lazy to search for that interview.

I don't blame Steve, I understand why he did what he did. However, I see no evidence in the movie that Zemo actually manipulated them with 5WS. He knew they gonna go after him due to the UN bombing, but he didn't know about the super-soldiers until he came to that base.
Tony breaks the Accords mostly to help Steve. I think, he would have handled the situation differently had Steve not interfered.

I think the one to blame for Zemo is Berlin counterterrorism centre. They were horrible at doing their job. They allowed the real terrorist to enter their building without any proper research or investigation. Even after the incident with Bucky's escape they did nothing useful.

When Steve, Tony and Bucky see the dead super soldiers Zemo literally says the following: "Did you really think I wanted more of you?" I'm grateful to them though, they brought you here. "

Zemo very clearly used the super soldiers as bait.

 

[zephyrinthesky]

Now people like to blame Spidey for all the deleted scenes.
The Russos actually talked about why this scene didn't make the cut, and it wasn't because of Spidey. But tbh, I don't actually remember their reason. Too lazy to search for that interview.

Writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely revealed to Fandango that they pitted Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanoff against each other in the script, but it was left out because of everything else that was packed into the movie. Markus said:
"There was a good fight between Captain America and Black Widow that we lost mainly due to time."

Another reason this particular fight was left out of Captain America: Civil Warwas because the tensions between Steve and Natasha were already being addressed in other forms, though not violently. McFeely added:

"[Cap and Black Widow] clearly have a deep relationship even though they're clearly on opposite sides, and you never know how many times you need to hit that over the course of the movie. I think it works without this fight, but we certainly didn't know if it would."

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Two-...d-Fight-Civil-War-Why-They-Didn-t-130167.html
It's well-documented that Spider-Man was added late in the development process. Markus & McFeely admit it the fight was cut largely due to time - Spider-Man took a big chunk out of the airport scene. It's not a stretch to think a lot of stuff was cut out once Marvel decided Spidey was going to be part of Civil War.


As for BW being blameless in putting her friends in jail, that's not entirely true. She may not have vehemently agreed with the Accords like Tony did, but by signing she did implicitly support whatever consequences they'd bring. She helped split the Avengers 50/50, adding support for Tony & co. to think they were in the right.
All the Avengers in the Raft were pissed at Tony even though he didn't physically throw them in prison. If Widow is sticking with Cap's group in IW, she's still a face attached to laws that made them fugitives. Living in hiding is a terrible situation. Resentment doesn't have to be rational.

I can see the renegades being somewhat disillusioned with both Cap & Widow for their roles in making them outlaws. Them sticking together might be more about safety than unity.

 

[zephyrinthesky]

SJ was injured by a stunt and could not make all Action secquences at the air port I readed. Maybe that is the reason for that unrealized Scene.

Unless you provide the source that's implausible. That's why they have stunt doubles.

 

[Capsfan]

Why would she care about Bucky? He tried to kill her. She knew he meant a lot to Steve, but thought he was still acting like a terrorist even after the end of the Hydra. She only cares about Steve and keeps the Avengers together.

If she cares about Steve, she should care at least about Bucky's life, because it's obvious that Bucky's death would be a great tragedy for Steve.

Zemo asked Bucky about Siberia, about the other soldiers. He already knew because he did a search. He used this to make Bucky think that he would use these supersoldiers against the world. He knew Steve would go after soldiers because he studied Steve.

My point is, we don't know for sure that Zemo knew about them. We didn't see him asking about Winter Soldiers. We only saw him asking mission report. We don't know what he knew from his research. As far as we know, Zemo suspected that Bucky killed Starks and he needed the video tape of that. He didn't know where this base was located, so there is no 100% proof he knew about 5WS.
If HYDRA in US and Pierce knew about 5WS, why didn't they use them during TWS?

Tony breaks the Accords many times. He didn't believe in the Accords, it was just an excuse he used.

I don't think Tony was right in doing what he did, but I don't remember "many times" either.

When Steve, Tony and Bucky see the dead super soldiers Zemo literally says the following: "Did you really think I wanted more of you?" I'm grateful to them though, they brought you here. "

Zemo very clearly used the super soldiers as bait.

Sorry, but it's not a proof, since it happened post-factum after Zemo discovered them in the base.
Bucky didn't remember Zemo asking about the super-soldiers. He only recalled Zemo asking about Siberia base:

Bucky: He wanted to know about Siberia. Where I was kept. He wanted to know exactly where.
Steve: Why would he need to know that?
Bucky: Because I'm not the only Winter Soldier.

There is no evidence whatsoever in the movie that Zemo knew and asked Bucky about the 5WS. As far as dialogs go, it might have been purely Bucky's assumption.

 

[Capsfan]

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Two-...d-Fight-Civil-War-Why-They-Didn-t-130167.html
It's well-documented that Spider-Man was added late in the development process. Markus & McFeely admit it the fight was cut largely due to time - Spider-Man took a big chunk out of the airport scene. It's not a stretch to think a lot of stuff was cut out once Marvel decided Spidey was going to be part of Civil War.

Okey, I admit that I remembered poorly and for that I stand corrected.
However, I think it's a stretch to say that Spidey is to blame for all the cut scenes.
It's not only time, that the filmmakers take into consideration, but pacing as well.
People blame Spidey for Sharon Carter being completely cut from the airport, they blame him for Vision barely being there, they blame him for cut scenes with Natasha... Sorry, but Spidey's screentime only took so long. He wasn't there all that much to steal so much time from different characters. If the Russos really wanted, they could have just added 5 minutes to the length of the movie. It's not like it would have become 3 hours long.

 

[Kev4000]

Unless you provide the source that's implausible. That's why they have stunt doubles.

http://www.focus.de/kultur/kino_tv/...l-bei-dreharbeiten-in-leipzig_id_4897630.html

There are a lot of german articles about her accident in Leipzig.

 

[ScarlettW]

If she cares about Steve, she should care at least about Bucky's life, because it's obvious that Bucky's death would be a great tragedy for Steve.


My point is, we don't know for sure that Zemo knew about them. We didn't see him asking about Winter Soldiers. We only saw him asking about mission report. We don't know what he knew from his research. As far as we know, Zemo suspected that Bucky killed Starks and he needed the video tape of that. He didn't know where this base was located, so there is no 100% proof he knew about 5WS.
If HYDRA in US and Pierce knew about 5WS, why didn't they use them during TWS?

I don't think Tony was right in doing what he did, but I don't remember "many times" either.


Sorry, but it's not a proof, since it happened post-factum after Zemo discovered them in the base.
Bucky didn't remember Zemo asking about the super-soldiers. He only recalled Zemo asking about Siberia base:

There is no evidence whatsoever in the movie that Zemo knew and asked Bucky about the 5WS. As far as dialogs go, it might have been purely Bucky's assumption.

I know, but she didn't care. When Steve is arrested, she says with a smile that this is what happens to those who don't sign the accs, Steve says at least Bucky is alive. She only cares for Steve, only him, and keep the Avengers.

Because the other soldiers didn't work. They became violent people, and went against the orders of their superiors, which is why the Hydra kept them there. Bucky is the only one that worked.

It is implicit that Zemo knew about the soldiers. He needed something to get them to Siberia, only let Bucky think he was going there without a bigger reason wouldn't work. He knew the tape was there, but he also knew about the soldiers. That's why he made Bucky think it was about the other soldiers, not the tape.

 

[Capsfan]

I know, but she didn't care. When Steve is arrested, she says with a smile that this is what happens to those who don't sign the accs, Steve says at least Bucky is alive. She only cares for Steve, only him, and keep the Avengers.

And that is what I call "selfishness". She cares about Steve's physical well-being, but not emotional.

Because the other soldiers didn't work. They became violent people, and went against the orders of their superiors, which is why the Hydra kept them there. Bucky is the only one that worked.

In this case there was no danger that Zemo could have used them in any way.

It is implicit that Zemo knew about the soldiers. He needed something to get them to Siberia, only let Bucky think he was going there without a bigger reason wouldn't work. He knew the tape was there, but he also knew about the soldiers. That's why he made Bucky think it was about the other soldiers, not the tape.

My point is, Zemo knowing or not knowing about 5WS doesn't matter, because he actually did nothing to manipulate Steve into belief he was after them. He didn't leave any evidence he needed them, he didn't even ask Bucky about them, only about Siberia. Imagine there were no super-soldiers. Would Zemo's actions have been different? No. He just didn't need them to be there. He knew Steve would go after him anyway, because he bombed the UN.
What Zemo actually did is leaving the evidence that he was a fake doctor and killed the real doctor. But it was more for Tony than Steve.

The thing is, Zemo couldn't have really relied on Steve, Bucky and Tony going to Siberia. Too many unknown variables. He was just very lucky that happened. He had no way to know Steve and Co would be able to escape. He didn't know that Sharon Carter would bring Steve his shield. He didn't know Sam would tell Tony info, or that Tony would go alone. He couldn't have known that Tony, Steve and Bucky would arrive at the same time. He couldn't have known that Bucky would even remember what he had told him under the brainwashing. It couldn't have been his plan before he discovered that Steve, Bucky and Sam escaped. All he really needed to do is to get the video tape and release it on Youtube. That was his plan to begin with. Had Karpov shared info about Siberia, Zemo wouldn't have framed Bucky (he said so himself) and no one would have even known about his trip to Siberia.
I mean, it's likely Zemo was improvising during the process, but no way it was his plan all along.

 

[ctsketch]

she says with a smile that this is what happens to those who don't sign the accs

I don't recall this....

 

[zephyrinthesky]

Okey, I admit that I remembered poorly and for that I stand corrected.
However, I think it's a stretch to say that Spidey is to blame for all the cut scenes.
It's not only time, that the filmmakers take into consideration, but pacing as well.
People blame Spidey for Sharon Carter being completely cut from the airport, they blame him for Vision barely being there, they blame him for cut scenes with Natasha... Sorry, but Spidey's screentime only took so long. He wasn't there all that much to steal so much time from different characters. If the Russos really wanted, they could have just added 5 minutes to the length of the movie. It's not like it would have become 3 hours long.

Someone counted the screentime each character had in CW - Spidey had 8:30 in comparison to Sharon's 3:45 and Widow's 11:45. It might not seem like a lot, but the scene in Peter's apartment alone took about 5 minutes - you easily could have slotted in another Sharon/Widow scene there. By including Spidey in the film at all, that impacts other decisions with respect to pacing and tone that might not be obvious to the audience.
Civil War at 2.5 hours was already the MCU's longest movie - any longer and studios don't like it.


But we digress - this thread should be about IW, not Civil War.

 

[Capsfan]

Ok, you're right. I answered about Spidey in Civil War thread:
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=35609217#post35609217

 

[Kev4000]

Only 11:45 screentime in Civil War? Whoa i didnt expect that short part, it feels more.
Then I predict for IW she will not have more screentime..

 

[Capsfan]

Only 11:45 screentime in Civil War? Whoa i didnt expect that short part, it feels more.
Then I predict for IW she will not have more screentime..

It's actually 12. Not a big difference, but just for the sake of more accurate data:
This is more recent one. (Also this: http://www.imdb.com/list/ls066620113/) Sharon gets 5 minutes and BW - 12.
I think this person only counts when the character is actually on screen. That's why it feels more. The scenes she was in took much longer, I suppose.

 

[ScarlettW]

And that is what I call "selfishness". She cares about Steve's physical well-being, but not emotional.

In this case there was no danger that Zemo could have used them in any way.

If he woke them up, they would destroy the world. They were trained for this.
Bucky thought that was what he was going to do, wake up the super-soldiers. That's why he, Steve and team were there.

My point is, Zemo knowing or not knowing about 5WS doesn't matter, because he actually did nothing to manipulate Steve into belief he was after them. He didn't leave any evidence he needed them, he didn't even ask Bucky about them, only about Siberia. Imagine there were no super-soldiers. Would Zemo's actions have been different? No. He just didn't need them to be there. He knew Steve would go after him anyway, because he bombed the UN.
What Zemo actually did is leaving the evidence that he was a fake doctor and killed the real doctor. But it was more for Tony than Steve.

The thing is, Zemo couldn't have really relied on Steve, Bucky and Tony going to Siberia. Too many unknown variables. He was just very lucky that happened. He had no way to know Steve and Co would be able to escape. He didn't know that Sharon Carter would bring Steve his shield. He didn't know Sam would tell Tony info, or that Tony would go alone. He couldn't have known that Tony, Steve and Bucky would arrive at the same time. He couldn't have known that Bucky would even remember what he had told him under the brainwashing. It couldn't have been his plan before he discovered that Steve, Bucky and Sam escaped. All he really needed to do is to get the video tape and release it on Youtube. That was his plan to begin with. Had Karpov shared info about Siberia, Zemo wouldn't have framed Bucky (he said so himself) and no one would have even known about his trip to Siberia.
I mean, it's likely Zemo was improvising during the process, but no way it was his plan all along.

The film doesn't show all talk with Bucky, that is narrative choice to show the revelation later that there are other soldiers.
He asks about the 1991 mission, in which Bucky stole the serum for the five soldiers. He lets Bucky think it's about the soldiers, so in the end he says 'do you really think I wanted others like you?' This was the excuse to bring all them together.

The intention was never to put that on youtube. Did you think the reaction would have been the same if they weren't there together? Tony would go crazy, Steve would have time to hide with Bucky.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I wasn't calling that being "extreme". But saying a character shouldn't have close relationships with two women simultaneously just because it wasn't like that in the comics, so the creators have to choose just one of them - that's what I called "extreme".

That's not what anyone said, but sure, stawman away.

 

[Capsfan]

The film doesn't show all talk with Bucky, that is narrative choice to show the revelation later that there are other soldiers.
He asks about the 1991 mission, in which Bucky stole the serum for the five soldiers.

My points still stand.
If there were no super-soldiers, what would Zemo have done differently? Because to manipulate somebody means to do something to make them believe in smth. What did Zemo do? He would have asked Bucky about the 1991 mission anyway, because he needed to find the video tape.

He lets Bucky think it's about the soldiers, so in the end he says 'do you really think I wanted others like you?' This was the excuse to bring all them together.

Well, Zemo certainly isn't stupid. He saw 5WS, he guessed why Cap and Tony came there. It's not a proof as of itself.
My point is, if the creators wanted to say that Zemo manipulated Steve to come there, they should have shown it. Otherwise it's the same as to claim that Sharon told Natasha where team Cap was. It might have been so or BW might have followed her, we don't know either way, because the movie didn't bother to clarify it.

The intention was never to put that on youtube. Did you think the reaction would have been the same if they weren't there together? Tony would go crazy, Steve would have time to hide with Bucky.

Weren't you the one, who said that Tony is able to find anyone anywhere?

Once again, we don't actually know, what was his intention. We may guess and make our assumptions, but we can't say for sure. Maybe he was going to deliver the tape personally to Tony. I don't know. But it's really impossible for him to predict that Cap, Bucky and Tony would be in Siberia at the same time. He had no way to know all the unknown variables without somebody from team Cap feeding him all the info about every Cap's step. Team Tony might have put all of them in the Raft and Zemo would have been unable to get them to Siberia. Or Tony could have taken Vision with him. Vision would have apprehended Zemo on the spot.
Not to mention that Zemo's ridiculously contrived plan wouldn’t work without Sharon's actions. It worked, because the filmmakers needed it to work. So Zemo became incredibly lucky.

That's not what anyone said, but sure, stawman away.

Then, once again, what was your point?
Because the only logical conclusion from your words is that two women can't have big roles and close relationship with Cap simultaneously, if they are both ex shield agents. So the filmmakers have to choose only one from the comics.

 

[Nathaniell]

Can we please change the topic and start discussing BW's role in IW not CW? There is a separate forum for this discussion. Thank you.

 

[Xeno]

Can we please change the topic and start discussing BW's role in IW not CW? There is a separate forum for this discussion. Thank you.

Discussion in this thread should also be limited to Natasha herself and her relationships. There is absolutely no excuse for the incessant argumentation about Sharon Carter and her role (or lack thereof) in the Captain Amerca trilogy. There's a whole thread for that nonsense.

 

[Nathaniell]

Discussion in this thread should also be limited to Natasha herself and her relationships. There is absolutely no excuse for the incessant argumentation about Sharon Carter and her role (or lack thereof) in the Captain Amerca trilogy. There's a whole thread for that nonsense.

TY...

Its just all this takes me right out of what I would like to discuss about Natasha's involvement in IW and who do you think we'll see her interact with and who do you think she'll bust someone's ass this time?