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The Dark Knight Trilogy, What Went Right

Eh, its what would happen if you wanted to take a more grounded approach to fixing the damage Bane did him. I trust that Nolan would find subtler ways of communicating the iatrogenic infection than a funeral outright. No victory without sacrifice; or if you like, Bruce being Batman was a great stupid game, and the infection's the stupid prize Bruce gets to collect.

I'm no PT and not all that interested in orthopedics, but I'm not sure if the method used in the film to fix Bruce's vertebra would really work all that well.
 
For me its the prison doctor not incidentally giving Bruce sepsis from using dirty medical equipment. I didn't get the impression that they'd been really keeping his medical gear all that clean. If Nolan wanted to kill off Bruce like some thought, that would've been the way to do it.

For me it was that Batman never really had a plan before "Go up to Bane and punch him".

Bane caught him by suprise in the sewer, but it's not like his plan the whole time wasn't to fight him.

Then after breaking his back and getting mended he comes back to Gotham and finds Bane and his new plan? Yep, go up to him and punch him. He only found out to break the mask by accident.

Not that Banes plan was any better than his.
 
Alot of things came together , much of which has been mentioned already.

I'll just add that timing also helped in that it came along before the age of expanded film universes and when films like the Raimi Spiderman films and the X Men films were largely self contained in their own worlds without trying to world build , crossover ,and connect everything in an attempt to churn out a ton of films over a decade.

Nolan basically told his story over a decade at his own pace without the pressure of setting up films 6 years down the line or shoehorning characters and subplots to service other characters films and subplots. He also had a studio which, at that time , was willing to give them breathing room.
 
I think TDKR's problems ultimately stem from the fact that they tried to cram a 4-hour movie into 2.5 hours. It's a film with lofty ambition.

The fact that it even turned out as well as it did is a testament to Nolan's skill as a filmmaker. In the hands of anyone else, that movie is an outright disaster.
 
I think TDKR's problems ultimately stem from the fact that they tried to cram a 4-hour movie into 2.5 hours.

Yep. IMAX runtime seemed to put some pressure on him in this regard. I think he should have just split into two movies instead of trimming so much.

Still it's a friggin masterpiece next to the DCU stuff we've received. :csad:
 
I think TDKR is a good movie. Certainly the weakest of the trilogy, but a good movie nonetheless. There are some serious face-palming moments, but when it works it really works.
 
For me it was that Batman never really had a plan before "Go up to Bane and punch him".

Bane caught him by suprise in the sewer, but it's not like his plan the whole time wasn't to fight him.

Then after breaking his back and getting mended he comes back to Gotham and finds Bane and his new plan? Yep, go up to him and punch him. He only found out to break the mask by accident.

Not that Banes plan was any better than his.

Up to the first fight, I got the impression that Bruce didn't really want to walk away from it, alive. Fighting Bane's the only course of action I could really see - this Batman didn't like using guns to kill people, but Bane was one of those villains that needed killing.

Bane's plan kinda fed into Bruce's state of mind.

Bruce wanted to keep on Batmaning because that was all he really had - a normal life wasn't hitting that sweetspot for him. Bane's attack showed him the futility of it by tearing down what Batman and Gordon achieved with Dent's death. Weaponizing Bruce's attempt at helping Gotham was, likewise, another shot at tearing down Bruce. Thematically its in line with what Nolan wanted to do with the movie, as evidenced by the script itself and the acting - throwing yourself into this hero's fantasy is foolishness that will do more harm than good.

^ Its this kind of tight writing, with very big stakes that're rooted in the characters as opposed to merely events, that make Nolan's trilogy great.
 
Hey, I'm not denying that TDKR is by far the most logically unsound and frankly, stupid movie in the trilogy. But I enjoy it on an emotional level. And I enjoy the character work. Two levels where I think the first two are rather distant on.
 
https://filmschoolrejects.com/suici...s-poison-in-the-water-6f8ddc90f8cd#.la6bhzcw8

"You see, the problem with Suicide Squad isn’t that it doesn’t have action and energy, it’s not that it doesn’t understand its characters or know how to deliver fan-service moments, it’s that it is made entirely without the benefits of confidence and clarity.
On the other end of this spectrum is Christopher Nolan’s 2008 comic adaptation masterpiece The Dark Knight. There was something that Nolan inherently understood about the adaptation of beloved comic characters that has escaped both Ayer and Batman v Superman director Zack Snyder. It’s simply not enough to put the Batsuit on a talented actor, or The Joker’s make-up on someone with a good laugh. You have to dig into these characters and find the thematic heart of their stories. Then with clear authorship and as little studio interference as you can manage, you build a story from that emotional core. A great comic book movie is a great story that includes characters we already love, not just the gathering of said characters.
In The Dark Knight, Nolan and his brother Jonathan built their story around the arc of Harvey Dent, as played by Aaron Eckhart. They understood that Harvey’s story would be the emotional core as he’s pushed and pulled by two sides: Batman on the side of order, The Joker on the side of chaos. In the end, the movie was about the battle for Harvey’s (and in a larger sense Gotham’s) soul. The Joker’s thesis: All it takes is one bad day to drive someone into the abyss of madness. Batman’s counter: True goodness is the resistance of chaos, something that lives within the hearts of even the most down-trodden Gothamites.
When you pull it apart, The Dark Knight is about so much more than Batman, The Joker, and Harvey “Two-Face” Dent. It’s about order and chaos. This is something that Warner Bros. and DC haven’t been able to quite nail in the years since.

Where the Tao of The Dark Knight — arguably the greatest comic book adaptation of all-time — preaches confidence and clarity of a singular vision, Suicide Squad sprays a hail of narrative gunfire into the dark, cold night. Whether it hits any target will depend on your willingness to sacrifice coherence for simple existence. It’s great to see Harley Quinn and The Joker finally get their moment on screen, but they deserve so much better than this."
 
I think TDKR is a good movie. Certainly the weakest of the trilogy, but a good movie nonetheless. There are some serious face-palming moments, but when it works it really works.
I maintain time will be kind to TDKR. It does have a jam packed plot, but I admire that ambition. The first half is excellent, and it picks up again towards the end.
 
I think it's not just the grounded approach that worked here. Nolan brought an epic old school filmmaking style to the Batman franchise you generally don't see as much today.

And what I mean by that, they did big location shoots overseas. Also, tons of practical setups. Now maybe the Batmobile/Tumbler never looks perfect. I have my issues with it. But I mean, they built all that. They did tons of rigs and practical set-ups. Most everything for the plane hijacking sequence for Dark Knight Rises was practically shot.

Nolan also did cool things with his movie. He actually shot his movie with IMAX cameras. In 2008, no one was really trying things like that. They would do 3D or IMAX, but they wouldn't shoot in IMAX and then present it in IMAX. Doing such big scenes in IMAX format got people to turn out to the theaters in droves to see it in IMAX.

I think what Nolan also did a good job is in reinventing classic characters is somehow endearing them to audiences. People were very critical of Ledger's Joker at first, but Nolan really sold the menace and mayhem of that character. Along with Ledger. But he sort of made his own spin on Joker iconic.

Even with Bane, IMHO again not perfect, he still made the new Bane iconic with the unique Bane mask and giving Bane all those great lines. Yeah we can make fun of Bane's voice, but there's just also something unique about Bane's voice and presentation that makes him part of the pop-culture lexicon. People want to quote and talk like Bane in the movie. Like it or not, Nolan's Bane is iconic.

I think at least with Batman Begins, from a fan perspective, we never really got a proper Batman/Bruce Wayne origin story before. Batman Begins really gave us the ground zero, square one Batman. Yeah it was an origin story, but we never really got the true origin story proper before in the other movies. Burton only did it in passing. And I think Nolan generally did a good job of it.

But I think that Nolan used very little CG to sell his Gotham City and his world of Batman helped sell it as a more grounded world.
 
Nolan's biggest success, in my opinion, is making a film trilogy that functions as both an exciting, thrilling action series, and also a rich psychological thinkpiece. It's the perfect example of having your cake and eating it too in terms of art.

TDKR is definitely the sloppiest of the three films, but I enjoy it for its lofty ambitions and emotional core. You truly believe during the third act that Gotham could go up in smoke at any moment and everything feels at risk. It feels sleeker and slightly less dated than Begins, at any rate (which has a script with a few too many Goyerisms for my liking). I do think TDK is quite a few head and shoulders above those two, so it can make the trilogy feel slightly imbalanced in quality, but it's nonetheless a masterpiece of storytelling.

Also, something that hasn't been touched on much is villains. Ra's Al Ghul, Joker, Bane, all dynamite. That probably has a lot to do with Nolan's strength in character, though.
 
TDK is my favorite film of all times. (Interstellar is the second one, I'm in attunement with Nolan's way of thinking it seems. I love The Prestige and Memento.)


It's all IMO, of course.

First off, Nolan is a intellectual. He's interested in psychology and philosophical standpoints of his characters and he explores those by means of the stories of his films. He's really a classical philosopher, he uses a dialog a lot to express things, like Plato, he's verbal. Characters in his films speak a lot.
I've noticed there are two kinds of films in this regard.
Films like the ones from Nolan or Garland's Ex Machina, where you have a lot of exposition through dialogue. Characters take actions which you also have to interpret but they speak a lot too.
The second kind are films like Scott's Blade Runner or Miller's Mad Max: Fury Road. No much talking, characters are revealed much more throught action. Me personally, I like the first approach much better since I like ideas to be presented in the most clear way possible, just Descartes' "clare et distincte". Words are ambiguous too, of course, like any kind of action, but what I like about words and sentences is you know the meaning is there because it was clearly said. Every character takes actions and you can over-interpret that to your liking but that does not mean the film or writer or director meant it that way and that the film is actually that deep. But when character says something it's right before you and you clearly see it was an intention of the artist to have that idea there.
So in Nolan's films you have action side of things which presents the character and dialogue side of things which presents the character. And both levels are rich and complement each other in a very thoughtful and deep way.

That's another thing that's important. The depth. Nolan as an intellectual is interested is deeper meanings and he likes his films complex, layered (go see The Prestige several times, the amount of interconnected things is just insane). So his characters undertake meaningful actions to reveal their psyche, they articulate their thoughts explicitly by means of the dialogue, those things and their meanings are frequently interconnected with other things in the story so they acquire allegorical and metaphorical meanings and all those things are about philosophical and psychological issues of the characters. There's a clash of ideologies, a dissonance between protagonist's view of the world and what the rest of the world suppose it the case, a strungle inside the character's mind, his obssessions, fears, rules, demeanour and quirks he thinks he must not abandon, etc. So it's form and substance in his films, and that's fantastic. Substance is profound and form is exceptionally!!! well crafted. But this applies more to Prestige or Memento which are non-linear. But although Batman films are linear the work with plot lines is great. Nolan's just a great storyteller.

You can find some analysis of his Batman films on YT and forums and some are really good or at least they can show you something you haven't noticed, etc.

So, Nolan is a very intelligent auteur, who is genuinely interested in the characters, in exploration of their personalities, mind-sets and their relationships to external world and other beings, who's a genius at writing scripts, who does never let form outweight the substance and want his stories to be about something substantial and who's a great storyteller. That's what went right.
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And I should mention he loves noir films, Following and Memento were heavily influenced by them so no surprise he was able to make a great Batman grounded in reality.

And what does the DCEU really need to learn from it?
That there's only one Nolan.
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The only Batman film I like more than his non-Batman films is TDK, which is just totally different category from other comicbook films and IMO no studio producing CB movies was able to come even close to the quality of this film, it's just completely another level. Something close could be Days of Future Past, but look the Apocalypse. So much worse film I cannot even believe it was done by the same people (well maybe Vaughn was the essential part that was not present at Apo). Some people say Winter Soldier or Civil War was close or even better, but I really don't think so, they are not even close, IMO, and I thought DoFP was overall better film than those two. And I thought writing on Nolan's Batmans was more interesting too. To me it feels he just handles characters and things they say in particularly interesting way which makes those films more appealing to me. I was never able to connect with Marvel characters like with Nolan ones. The things Bruce or Joker or Bane say feel much more intense and visceral, with more gravitas. I felt something like that in DoFP. And Whedon was able to accomplish something similar in AoU, but the overall feel of MCU does not let those words to have the same impact. DoFP was more serious so those sentences felt more appropriate. But Joker's lines or Bruce's line are just pure gold, I miss something like that in other CB films.

MCU is great at what it does but I don't think what it does is so great. Sony had their DoFP which was excellent and First Class was very good too. Now what DCEU should learn from all of this? I'm really not sure. You need the right people to make those film and to run the company, how to detect them, find them, treat them, I don't know. If the rumors about how many directors were approached by WB to direct MoS before Snyder got it are true then I don't know how to interpret that. When so many talented people say no to direct the Superman film!.. And when you try to bring in somebody young and new that feels even more dangerous.

When somebody like Nolan comes to you, a man who wrote and directed and was able to finish the production on Following (what a perfectly written film) and ****ing Memento!, who is inventive and clever, and who wants to work with you because he is interested in characters and has a vision of what he wants to do and ability to make it work, etc., you just provide him with all the money he needs and don't interfere with what he's doing! You as a studio should respect the artist, I think the BvS and SS situation with multiple cuts and rushing things, etc. is unacceptable. In the end it hurts the films, the artists, all those companies involved. I know they want to catch up with Marvel, but this approach will not get them there. I think Snyder, Terrio, Ayer and competent artists, just give them more time to work on script, etc. I mean Ayer had to write SS, will all those characters, in 6 weeks! What the hell...
 
There's not a lot to say that hasn't been said already. I agree with everyone who admired TDKR's ambition, if not its execution - I think it's the weakest chapter, but then any chapter would suffer in comparison with TDK. Really, Nolan could have let things go there, and that would have been okay.

So what makes TDK the greatest superhero trilogy? ( sorry Cap, your last two films were brilliant, but Nolan's Bat-trilogy is a self-contained masterpiece, that doesn't rely on other films, I mean Civil War is a bit more Avengers 2.5 than Cap III,don't get me wrong it's still awesome and a million times better than B v S )


Anyway, what makes TDK so great ?

Well, it's a diverse mix of elements that somehow gel together to make magic, and these include:

-Christopher Nolan, a director who understands the character of Batman, and while this is a slightly different interpretation of Batman (and a more serious one than previous films) everything that makes the character who he is, is there (unlike Snyder's Batman, who's cool, but missing the core element of the character). I don't think Nolan can be given enough credit for the success of the trilogy, given that everything (the story, the aesthetic, the characterisation of Batman, and the performances) were shaped by him. The guy is a good storyteller - Inception is proof of that, now that's a great film (on my top 10 list !). So, the first and most important ingredient in the trilogy's success is Nolan himself.

- a comprehensive vision that determines the look as well as the feel of the world Batman inhabits. Also, a director who has a definite aesthetic style ( Snyder does too, but sadly, that's all he's got).

- a well-written story (and a complete story, with a beginning, middle and end, which is how it was conceived from day one, rather than just another installment in the endless adventures of Batman) and characters who are developed enough for us to care about them. Exploration of universal and relatable themes.

- an emphasis on practical special effects (bucking the trend of cgi blockbusters)

-good actors putting in strong performances all around.

- an innovative twist, in making the world of Batman as realistic as possible
and maintaining that suspension of belief effectively. (sure it's still not real, and Batman does a few things that break the laws of physics, but it's so well dressed up that we don't really notice).

- A brilliant score, at least for TDK. I love Zimmer's work, but in TDK he really nailed it, with the nails on chalkboard simplicity of the Joker's theme to the bombastic Bat-theme, it worked.


Are any of Nolan's films perfect ? No, but then no film is. I love the Godfather, but it's still damn slow. There are some quite ridiculous parts of BB and TDKR ( the microwave emitter, the nuclear bomb, the entire police force trapped underground for 5 months ? ) but somehow the whole manages to be greater than its parts.

As for TDK, definitely the "Empire Strikes Back" of the trilogy - probably my favourite film of all time, and one that people can almost universally appreciate. Sure, there are some who didn't like it - but for me it's still the definitive Batman film - and I can't see that changing any time soon. While Batfleck has made a good start, and he's definitely a cool and badass Batman, hopefully he'll get to show off the more heroic characteristics that make Batman such a compelling character - at least let's hope Affleck understands Batman better than Snyder does.
 
I think TDKR's problems ultimately stem from the fact that they tried to cram a 4-hour movie into 2.5 hours. It's a film with lofty ambition.

The fact that it even turned out as well as it did is a testament to Nolan's skill as a filmmaker. In the hands of anyone else, that movie is an outright disaster.

I definitely agree with that last part. I shudder to think what Zack Snyder's version of the movie would've been.

I also take some comfort in knowing that the 2:45 version of the movie is also what Nolan intended, and is the result of him putting restrictions on himself and doing most of his editing at the script level. It "The Art and Making of The Dark Knight Trilogy" book it says that while the intention was to make something more expansive and epic, the goal was always to keep it under 3 hours. Which to me is a lot different than a studio chopping down or compromising your film. There's a certain integrity of the creative process there, with the theatrical cut being the one definitive version of the film that is the director's vision.

I'm not saying that studio meddling is solely responsible for the current state of things- I think giving Snyder so much power in the first place was a big mistake, but now that they're micromanaging more it just seems like they can't get out of their own way.
 
Fight scenes were garbage. Which ultimately is gonna ruin the experience for me, as it's *****n Batman.
 
Batman Begins took the time to tell the story of Bruce Wayne. That's why it worked so marvelously for the first two acts. The last act was meh...but it almost was beyond the point.

The Dark Knight is a beautiful work of art. It's philosophically deep and a true battle for the soul of Gotham. The four poles of Gotham battle it out: Batman (order), Gordon (law), Dent (justice), and The Joker (chaos). It's a flawless film.

The Dark Knight Rises is...weak. It really is. It tries too hard and it's a mess. Bane looked cool though. I really wish Nolan would go back and finish the trilogy in a better way.
 
The Dark Knight Rises is...weak. It really is. It tries too hard and it's a mess. Bane looked cool though. I really wish Nolan would go back and finish the trilogy in a better way.

The Dark Knight Rises certainly isn't flawless but it's far from an outright mess and it's definitely the strongest among third entries in CBM trilogies (I don't count Civil War because it's not a direct sequel to Winter Soldier) It has weakness's but its not an overall weak movie, It has way too many obvious strengths.

It was a perfectly respectable close to an excellent series of movies,
 
How would you have preferred Nolan end his trilogy then?
 
I would've preferred it been like Bale's Batman is still out there protecting Gotham City. I was never keen on forcing him to retire and stop being Batman.
 
Fight scenes were garbage. Which ultimately is gonna ruin the experience for me, as it's *****n Batman.

Have to disagree with you there. Respect your opinion, but I can't agree with you. I suppose it depends on what makes a good fight - for some folks its the flashy moves (Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or the Matrix, are just visual poetry in that sense) but sometimes simple but brutal fights can be just as impressive, like any of the fights in Gangs of New York.

Personally, my all time favourite fist-fight is the Bourne v Desh fight from the Bourne Ultimatum, because is combines both brutality and choreography.
If you like flashy and brutal fights, the FX show Banshee cannot be beat !

Anyway, Batfleck's moves are flashier and more brutal - but I still think the confrontation between Batman and the Joker's thugs at the Pruitt building is still pretty impressive.

You see Batman use his brains and gadgetry to save the hostages, and take out both the Joker's thugs and Swat goons, without seriously harming anyone - now that's classic Batman.

Now remember that Nolan purposely didn't go for flashy fight moves, which is why the choreography is so dialed back ( I mean, the last time I saw one guy take on a bunch of guys, it sure as hell didn't look like the Batfleck fight scene, because that's not what real fights look like - I mean, if Conor McGregor took on a bunch of thugs, it wouldn't look like Batfleck, because that's just the way real fights are, messy).

And, while some of the choreography in TDKR is sloppy, the fight between Batman and Bane still conveys a sense of brutality (which is what it's meant to do).

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that while I find the B v S fights really impressive (well, actually the fight between Batman and Superman, the most important fight of all, is pretty disappointing) as bits of choreography, I don't think the fights in the TDK trilogy are **** in comparison - just a different emphasis. But that's just my opinion.

And of course, I would trade some of the flashy choreography in B v S for a decent story and characters who were well developed enough for me to care about.
 
I love what the title of the thread is implying, lol. :whatever:

The biggest things (for me) that the trilogy got right are:

- The cast. Everyone in each movie was perfect. I'll leave out the Rachel situation because the casting was awkward between films. Bale, Ledger, Caine, Oldman, Freeman, Hardy... It's the best cast we'll ever see in something comic book related, bar none.

- The cinematography. Wally Pfister. 'Nuff said. Best cinematography in superhero history. Oscar caliber.

- The tone. The atmosphere was adult. I don't know how to explain it, but "dark" and "gritty" aren't the words. Just the atmosphere... I have no idea how to elaborate, but this trilogy nailed it more than any other comic book interpretation ever. The interrogation scene is the perfect example. There's something about that scene that encapsulates the entire trilogy. It just feels perfect.

^ Those are honestly the three standouts for me. Tone is so important and it makes or breaks a film for me.
 
All of it. Seriously, that was a wonderful trilogy of films.
 
I think what made the fight scenes better to swallow was the stakes behind them.

The SWAT scene in TDK for example

-Joker holding the two boats hostage with triggers given to each boat
-Harvey Dent going full 2-Face
-not to mention the Joker disguised his goons as the doctors and the doctors as his goons.

It was a really tense final confrantation. Batman had to stop joker, and also keep the SWAT teams from getting killed, and take out the Joker's men (all non lethally of course). And then after that he still has to deal with 2-Face.

Meanwhile the BVS title fight had some really murky reasons for both starting and ending. And frankly despite how good Snyder was at making it look the illogic of it took me out. Throughout the entire fight you keep wondering why are they fighting?
 
And frankly despite how good Snyder was at making it look the illogic of it took me out. Throughout the entire fight you keep wondering why are they fighting?

Which speaks for itself and is not a good thing if the fight is one of your center pieces of the film and people have to wonder why they are fighting.
 

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