The Doctor Doom Thread

[Venom 1988]

Given the use of AI pics, no citation of the reports and an Instagram account I've never heard of, it's fake

 

[DarthFantastic]

Posted this in the Doomsday thread. Figured it belongs here too.

There's a leak going around that sounds legit.

Spoiler

I honestly hated RDJ's casting as Doom and pretty much lost my enthusiasm for the coming Avengers movies. Then I ran into this leak. Now I'm not only very excited for Doomsday and Secret Wars, but I'm actually loving RDJ's casting.

If this isn't true, then I don't know any other way they can sell casting RDJ as Doom that actually makes sense.

Spoiler

The ideas that this presents are MASSIVE.

-RDJ's face was always Doom's
-Every Doom across the Multiverse looks like RDJ
-We are yet to see the face of a real Tony Stark

And the thematic proposition is even greater: they're aiming to explore the concept of nature vs. nurture with this saga. If you raise Victor von Doom properly, under good conditions and good parents, you get a hero. But if you allow Victor von Doom to be raised under harsh conditions, in Latveria, you get a supervillain. He's either the best of us or the worst of us.

I rewatched the entire Infinity Saga with this in mind and it changes everything.

Spoiler

Tony is too smart. Tony's dark aspirations mirror Doom's. But the heroism and his heroic surroundings kept him from going the path of his multiversal counterparts.

This also explains why RDJ insists he's playing Victor von Doom and not a Tony Stark variant. If this is legit, the Doom we're getting is 100% classic Doctor Doom.

Lastly, I like the inclusion of

Spoiler

Kang who is obviously the unseen figure. For the people that wanted more Kang this is a subtle way to include him without having to bring back Majors or recast him. This is a classic Kang move. Planting his ancestor in the 616 to ensure his own birth a few millennia later.

Imagine Reed/Pedro's reaction when arriving in the 616 and seeing a monument to Tony Stark. Craziness.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Like I said elsewhere, this "leak" sucks and is the same core issue. It's just trying to write around the casting as opposed to writing a good Doctor Doom story. That's not how good storytelling is done

 

[Stark Bauer]

Posted this in the Doomsday thread. Figured it belongs here too.

There's a leak going around that sounds legit.

Spoiler

I honestly hated RDJ's casting as Doom and pretty much lost my enthusiasm for the coming Avengers movies. Then I ran into this leak. Now I'm not only very excited for Doomsday and Secret Wars, but I'm actually loving RDJ's casting.

If this isn't true, then I don't know any other way they can sell casting RDJ as Doom that actually makes sense.

Spoiler

The ideas that this presents are MASSIVE.

-RDJ's face was always Doom's
-Every Doom across the Multiverse looks like RDJ
-We are yet to see the face of a real Tony Stark

And the thematic proposition is even greater: they're aiming to explore the concept of nature vs. nurture with this saga. If you raise Victor von Doom properly, under good conditions and good parents, you get a hero. But if you allow Victor von Doom to be raised under harsh conditions, in Latveria, you get a supervillain. He's either the best of us or the worst of us.

I rewatched the entire Infinity Saga with this in mind and it changes everything.

Spoiler

Tony is too smart. Tony's dark aspirations mirror Doom's. But the heroism and his heroic surroundings kept him from going the path of his multiversal counterparts.

This also explains why RDJ insists he's playing Victor von Doom and not a Tony Stark variant. If this is legit, the Doom we're getting is 100% classic Doctor Doom.

Lastly, I like the inclusion of

Spoiler

Kang who is obviously the unseen figure. For the people that wanted more Kang this is a subtle way to include him without having to bring back Majors or recast him. This is a classic Kang move. Planting his ancestor in the 616 to ensure his own birth a few millennia later.

Imagine Reed/Pedro's reaction when arriving in the 616 and seeing a monument to Tony Stark. Craziness.

It reminds me of the “it was all a dream” trope to spin doctor/damage control

 

[DarthFantastic]

It reminds me of the “it was all a dream” trope to spin doctor/damage control

I think the main problem they had was having very little time to develop Doom prior to Doomsday and Secret Wars. The RDJ move seemed like a desperation tactic at first but if this alleged leak is true then RDJ's casting actually allows for more backstory into Doom with the 616 revelation that

Spoiler

Tony Stark was born Victor von Doom and because of his upbringing with the Starks grew up to be Earth's mightiest hero rather than Earth's ultimate supervillain. So audiences aren't going into Doomsday with zero data regarding this Doctor Doom guy. They have the entire Infinity Saga to draw from and fill them in on just how intelligent a Doom can be. How capable and formidable and brilliant a mind these current Avengers will be facing.

I rewatched the entire Infinity Saga with this in mind and I noticed so many things I hadn't noticed before as a comics fan.

For example

Spoiler

Tony develops Time Travel in Endgame. In the comics, Doom did that lol

The special bonus that comes with this whole idea is that

Spoiler

we haven't seen the true face of Tony Stark. My money's on Tom Cruise playing all the Tony Starks across the Multiverse. 838. The universe where the new Jackman Wolvie comes from. The universe the FF come from. I love the notion that ONLY the 616 heroes don't know what Tony Stark actually looks like.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That doesn't develop Doom. Just making him evil Tony Stark isn't development. You still haven't spent time with that character. You're just referring to lore, but lore isn't development.

 

[Frodo]

The alleged leak sounds awful , and if that's the real deal , it certainly doesn't make me more optimistic about the story overall.

 

[DarthFantastic]

That doesn't develop Doom. Just making him evil Tony Stark isn't development. You still haven't spent time with that character. You're just referring to lore, but lore isn't development.

If he was never Tony Stark to begin with then you have spent time with a Doom. One who saved his universe and went out as a force for good.

That's 8 whole movies worth of development. It gives audiences unfamiliar with Doctor Doom an idea of what to expect when it comes to his incredible mind and resources.

 

[Spider-Fan]

If he was never Tony Stark to begin with then you have spent time with a Doom. One who saved his universe and went out as a force for good.

That's 8 whole movies worth of development. It gives audiences unfamiliar with Doctor Doom an idea of what to expect when it comes to his incredible mind and resources.

Just by spending time with Tom Holland Spider-Man doesn't mean you have developed Andrew Garfield at the same time. They're 2 different characters. Regardless if the face of the character is the same. So no, that is factually false.

 

[DarthFantastic]

Just by spending time with Tom Holland Spider-Man doesn't mean you have developed Andrew Garfield at the same time. They're 2 different characters. Regardless if the face of the character is the same. So no, that is factually false.

Glad you brought up NWH. You literally have 3 strangers bonding over a single conversation because despite having different faces and coming from different universes and differing in age, they were essentially the same person. A Peter Parker will always have an Uncle Ben whose death will inspire heroism. A Peter Parker will always gravitate towards science. A Peter Parker will always have an MJ.

They were three separate people but were essentially the same person. That applies here with RDJ's Doom.

Spoiler

616 Doom may have been a force for good but deep down he was still a Doom. A Doom who was raised to be a hero. Again, this is an exploration of the nature vs. nurture concept. In the Spider-Man cartoon, the final villain is Spider-Carnage. All it took for that Peter Parker to become evil was Aunt May dying. Her death didn't inspire heroism. It inspired grief and anger.

All it took was one death to make Peter Parker into a villain. All it took was different parents/upbringing to make Doom a hero in the 616.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Glad you brought up NWH. You literally have 3 strangers bonding over a single conversation because despite having different faces and coming from different universes and differing in age, they were essentially the same person. A Peter Parker will always have an Uncle Ben whose death will inspire heroism. A Peter Parker will always gravitate towards science. A Peter Parker will always have an MJ.

They were three separate people but were essentially the same person. That applies here with RDJ's Doom.

Spoiler

616 Doom may have been a force for good but deep down he was still a Doom. A Doom who was raised to be a hero. Again, this is an exploration of the nature vs. nurture concept. In the Spider-Man cartoon, the final villain is Spider-Carnage. All it took for that Peter Parker to become evil was Aunt May dying. Her death didn't inspire heroism. It inspired grief and anger.

All it took was one death to make Peter Parker into a villain. All it took was different parents/upbringing to make Doom a hero in the 616.

Again, lore is not development. That conversation works because of things we have seen on screen and the fact that they're bonding in the movie. Doom just existing as a version of Stark or vice versa doesn't change the fact we haven't seen Doom on screen, see how he reacts to situations, or has developed as a character. Doom hasn't been developed as a character to date. There isn't 6 or whatever movies building off of just by doing a switched at birth gimmick. That's not the same as actually seeing the character on screen. So once again, this doesn't change any core issues with the casting.

 

[DarthFantastic]

Again, lore is not development. That conversation works because of things we have seen on screen and the fact that they're bonding in the movie. Doom just existing as a version of Stark or vice versa doesn't change the fact we haven't seen Doom on screen, see how he reacts to situations, or has developed as a character. Doom hasn't been developed as a character to date. There isn't 6 or whatever movies building off of just by doing a switched at birth gimmick. That's not the same as actually seeing the character on screen. So once again, this doesn't change any core issues with the casting.

But what if you have seen Doom onscreen? What if you have seen him react to situations? What if you have seen him developed as a character, but he was calling himself Iron Man rather than Doctor Doom the whole time?

I think your core issue (beef) is RDJ the actor playing Doom. McFeely and The Russos crafting a valid story premise for his casting isn't going to convince you either way.

I hated the casting for a good while. But this alleged leak sold me. Even if it turns out to be fake, its proof that RDJ's casting can be justified, as long as you don't hate the idea of RDJ the actor playing Victor von Doom.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But what if you have seen Doom onscreen? What if you have seen him react to situations? What if you have seen him developed as a character, but he was calling himself Iron Man rather than Doctor Doom the whole time?

I think your core issue (beef) is RDJ the actor playing Doom. McFeely and The Russos crafting a valid story premise for his casting isn't going to convince you either way.

I hated the casting for a good while. But this alleged leak sold me. Even if it turns out to be fake, its proof that RDJ's casting can be justified, as long as you don't hate the idea of RDJ the actor playing Victor von Doom.

But we haven't and your scenario outlined here doesn't change that. He's a separate character. Even if you had Tony Stark from Earth 616 and Tony Stark from Earth 617 where they are identical but Tony Stark in 617 ate a McDonald's cheeseburger in IM1 instead of Burger King, he would be an entirely separate character we haven't seen. Characters need to be on screen to be developed. That's why it is called development.

 

[Chris B]

I still think the simplest thing is just to say that in the multiverse its possible for people in different universes to look identical ala Captain America and Fox-verse Human Torch both looking like Chris Evans.

Trying to overexplain the resemblance can become contrived quickly, and retconning Earth-616 Tony as having really been Doom doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea.

 

[DarthFantastic]

I still think the simplest thing is just to say that in the multiverse its possible for people in different universes to look identical ala Captain America and Fox-verse Human Torch both looking like Chris Evans.

Trying to overexplain the resemblance can become contrived quickly, and retconning Earth-616 Tony as having really been Doom doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea

E-??? Doctor Doom randomly looking like 616 Tony Stark makes no sense at all and is the primary reason people aren't happy about RDJ's casting.

The Evans/Human Torch bit worked in DP&W because it was written to be a huge joke. A great one at that. It worked because it was played for laughs.

616 Tony Stark and the coming Doctor Doom looking like twins has to make sense for the general audience. I expect nothing less from the people who gave us The Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame. Four of the best CBMs to date.

 

[Spider-Fan]

E-??? Doctor Doom randomly looking like 616 Tony Stark makes no sense at all and is the primary reason people aren't happy about RDJ's casting.

The Evans/Human Torch bit worked in DP&W because it was written to be a huge joke. A great one at that. It worked because it was played for laughs.

616 Tony Stark and the coming Doctor Doom looking like twins has to make sense for the general audience. I expect nothing less from the people who gave us The Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame. Four of the best CBMs to date.

I cannot speak for every fan, but for most on here that hate it that's inaccurate. The main issue most of us have is the creative. It feels desperate, cause it is. It's also clearly about getting RDJ back into the MCU more than it is about making a great story about Doctor Doom. Cause anyone else could have been Doom. I don't care who Doctor Doom looks like. Ideally, Doom's face should never be an issue cause he shouldn't be showing his face. Hence the scars and the mask. But they're clearly making it a point of emphasis. Otherwise we wouldn't be doing this at all. To date, no one has pitched any idea that makes this anything but groan worthy for me.

 

[Chris B]

E-??? Doctor Doom randomly looking like 616 Tony Stark makes no sense at all and is the primary reason people aren't happy about RDJ's casting.

The Evans/Human Torch bit worked in DP&W because it was written to be a huge joke. A great one at that. It worked because it was played for laughs.

616 Tony Stark and the coming Doctor Doom looking like twins has to make sense for the general audience. I expect nothing less from the people who gave us The Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame. Four of the best CBMs to date.

It was played for laughs but it still established a precedence. We were reportedly close to getting Jake Gyllenhaal as Reed Richards despite him having already played Mysterio. Had that happened, I doubt they would've explained it beyond the FF coming from another universe.

 

[Venom 1988]

I cannot speak for every fan, but for most on here that hate it that's inaccurate. The main issue most of us have is the creative. It feels desperate, cause it is. It's also clearly about getting RDJ back into the MCU more than it is about making a great story about Doctor Doom.

This. I don't have an issue with recasts. The issue is that Marvel is desperate and throwing hail mary by casting the leading man of the MCU to play one of the biggest Marvel villains.

They are not going to reveal that the Tony Stark we've seen this whole time is really Doom under a different name. That's just a dumb and absurd idea full stop.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This. I don't have an issue with recasts. The issue is that Marvel is is desperate and throwing hail mary by casting the leading man of the MCU to play one of the biggest Marvel villains.

They are not going to reveal that the Tony Stark we've seen this whole time is really Doom under a different name. That's just a dumb and absurd idea full stop.

It is absurdly dumb. But with this RDJ's face thing, there is only a handful of possible ways they're going to end up explaining it. Cause I highly doubt the option where "He's just played by the same guy without explanation" is what Marvel will end up doing. I am assuming they're making this they central point of the plot somehow. Even if it is creatively bankrupt and sucks. So the notion that "Doom isn't a Stark variant, Stark is a Doom variant!" It's as plausible as anything else anyone is coming up with. There are only so many ways to do that type of trope

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

If that Doom leak is real then I give up.

 

[Venom 1988]

If that Doom leak is real then I give up.

Its not, it's bad fanfic. Ive not seen it pop up anywhere else on the internet. I've asked him to provide a source for it multiple times and he ignores me.

 

[DarthFantastic]

If that Doom leak is real then I give up.

As someone who hated the announcement of RDJ's casting, this was a surprisingly ingenious way of reconciling the idea that 616 Tony Stark is identical to the Doom(s) we're going to meet in Doomsday and Secret Wars.

The idea that

Spoiler

Victor von Doom's brain and destiny will always lead to world-changing events or in this case universe-changing events, whether he's a good man (616) or a bad one (every other universe), really sells me.

This saga has always been about choice. Making that theme a central part of Doom's development makes a ton of sense. Frankly, its almost too perfect. Again, if its real, its coming from McFeely, The Russos and Feige. People with a fantastic track record in breaking stories and adapting the comics brilliantly despite taking plenty of creative liberties.

The moment the various 616 heroes learn the truth about their Tony Stark will be akin to when Doctor Strange saw the one outcome where the Avengers won.

Spoiler

And learning who their Tony Stark really is will help them a great deal in knowing how to fight Doom and how to best him.

 

[Spider-Fan]

As someone who hated the announcement of RDJ's casting, this was a surprisingly ingenious way of reconciling the idea that 616 Tony Stark is identical to the Doom(s) we're going to meet in Doomsday and Secret Wars.

The idea that

Spoiler

Victor von Doom's brain and destiny will always lead to world-changing events or in this case universe-changing events, whether he's a good man (616) or a bad one (every other universe), really sells me.

This saga has always been about choice. Making that theme a central part of Doom's development makes a ton of sense. Frankly, its almost too perfect. Again, if its real, its coming from McFeely, The Russos and Feige. People with a fantastic track record in breaking stories and adapting the comics brilliantly despite taking plenty of creative liberties.

The moment the various 616 heroes learn the truth about their Tony Stark will be akin to when Doctor Strange saw the one outcome where the Avengers won.

Spoiler

And learning who their Tony Stark really is will help them a great deal in knowing how to fight Doom and how to best him.

Something is off with these posts. Like @Venom 1988 suggests maybe this is your theory or maybe a studio plant or something trying to spin the narrative, but either way....these posts feel....like you're trying to se me something.

 

[Chris B]

This. I don't have an issue with recasts. The issue is that Marvel is desperate and throwing hail mary by casting the leading man of the MCU to play one of the biggest Marvel villains.

They are not going to reveal that the Tony Stark we've seen this whole time is really Doom under a different name. That's just a dumb and absurd idea full stop.

It'd literally be the new "somehow Palpatine returned" meme.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Something is off with these posts. Like @Venom 1988 suggests maybe this is your theory or maybe a studio plant or something trying to spin the narrative, but either way....these posts feel....like you're trying to se me something.

So what you’re saying is…