The Guns thread - Part 1

[Sithborg]

Now.

This is the thing I keep stressing. Unwilling to give on anything, you are going to build up anger in the other side, to where full bans are more and more popular. I would not underestimate the generation who grew up with active shooter drills.

 

[squeekness]

I still fail to see why there can be comprise. I don't see a need for an outright gun ban, but we can be sensible and have strong background checks and limited assault weapons.

 

[Sithborg]

So, Pat Robertson is calling for an assault weapon ban.

That weird feeling when you find yourself on the same side as a deplorable bigot.

 

[Aximili86]

Sith. Bans just aren't happening, at least on a national level. I actually think California or wherever might pull it off - Chicago did on a city-limits level with handguns. That's fine I guess, if the locals are cool with it.

Hunting rifles just aren't getting banned federally, though. Looks like the kids in Florida in the demonstrations after this shooting may have already lost on that, doesn't sound like the local representatives are going to move.

And Squeek, that's sort of the whole problem. "Assault weapons". The other half of the country hears that term when applied to an AR-10/15, rolls their eyes, and knowing the person using the word doesn't know the slightest thing about guns, stops listening to them.

Vicious cycle. But you're right on the background checks - hell, the NRA themselves have said they're cool with revising background checks. Let's get that done as a first step, try to figure what other measures can be put in place after that.

 

[TheCommissioner]

Now.

This is the thing I keep stressing. Unwilling to give on anything, you are going to build up anger in the other side, to where full bans are more and more popular. I would not underestimate the generation who grew up with active shooter drills.

I would loooove to see how the NRA would pitch gun culture to these kids

I really would

 

[TheCommissioner]

No, it's not caving to pure emotion over a sense of rationality. You can't just emotionally shame people anytime you want things a certain way.

they declared porn a 'public health crisis' in the same hearing

its less about rationale, and more about how much money the NRA pays for inaction year after year

 

[samsnee]

So, Pat Robertson is calling for an assault weapon ban.

That weird feeling when you find yourself on the same side as a deplorable bigot.

Well he did have a stroke recently. Maybe he finally realizes he’s going to have to answer for his beliefs when he finally croaks.

 

[Sithborg]

Sith. Bans just aren't happening, at least on a national level. I actually think California or wherever might pull it off - Chicago did on a city-limits level with handguns. That's fine I guess, if the locals are cool with it.

Hunting rifles just aren't getting banned federally, though. Looks like the kids in Florida in the demonstrations after this shooting may have already lost on that, doesn't sound like the local representatives are going to move.

And Squeek, that's sort of the whole problem. "Assault weapons". The other half of the country hears that term when applied to an AR-10/15, rolls their eyes, and knowing the person using the word doesn't know the slightest thing about guns, stops listening to them.

Vicious cycle. But you're right on the background checks - hell, the NRA themselves have said they're cool with revising background checks. Let's get that done as a first step, try to figure what other measures can be put in place after that.

This year, no. Next year, no. But give it 10-15 years. Another generation growing up with active shooter drills. And god knows how many more mass shootings. When these kids aren't just the voters, but the actual leaders?

Yeah, I can see a total ban in the future. I mean, marijuana is already on the cusp of legalization.

 

[Aximili86]

Gun sales are up lately, though.

You'd figure the kids growing up now in gun states would likely be being raised around them and with a certain support for them the same way their parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on were. Not sure that's going to change.

It sort of feels like the tide's turning on this, going by the rallies you see all over the news. It's likely not, though. We've been through this a bunch of times before, people end up in their same camps. Anti-gun half of the country gets louder, pro-gun half of the country buys up more guns.

Doesn't really matter how loud a bunch of new-to-the-electoral-rolls millennials get about it, doesn't change that you basically couldn't enact it federally at this point. It's sort of baked into the cake by now.

 

[TheCommissioner]

have we seen this before?

yeah some angry parents, but this feel different

kids walking out of schools across the country - happened in DC today, happening here in CT next week, Texas soon as well

and a bunch of new to the rolls millenials might just be what this problem needs

 

[Sithborg]

These aren't the millenials though. They are the post millenials. Deride the next generation like the older generation always does. I am sure many also dismissed the Woman's March as well.

 

[Aximili86]

...The women's march didn't amount to anything of substance either.

And millennial, post-millennial, whatever. Doesn't really change that if you grow up in a certain part of the country, even the young people are still basically pro-gun for the most part. Not sure that's going to change anytime soon, especially with the data backing such a miniscule number of the rifles actually being involved in shootings.

*Shrugs* I'm not even particularly advocating for the "yay guns" view here. Just can't see why this time's any different. If Sandy Hook didn't magically persuade the other half of the country, this won't. Especially in a state like Florida. These classmates of the kid are probably in for a pretty rude awakening, when all is said and done - they'll all be fawned over as brave heroes in the press for "taking a stand", sure, but legislatively I doubt they're persuading anyone.

And Commissioner - how many, though? I suspect the major turnout for these rallies will probably be in states that lean blue anyway, and in somewhere like Texas you'll probably see equally emphatic counter-rallies. So it's like...cool, go for it, express yourselves by all means. There's nothing to say it'll be listened to, though, especially in states where the majority opinion still goes the other way.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, I'm sure Harvey Weinstein, Roy Moore, and various others all feel that the Woman's March didn't have much of an effect either. Effects aren't always immediate. And I think the very large contingent of new woman candidates in the mid terms will have an effect.

 

[Tao43]

Why does everyone keep using Chicago as an example of gun laws not working? Their handgun ban was rescinded years ago and they were forced to implement a concealed carry program as well. New York and California have stricter gun laws than Illinois now and the homicide rates in both are going down. Guess that does not fit the narrative though.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...l-chicago-dahleen-glanton-20171003-story.html

 

[Donner]

...The women's march didn't amount to anything of substance either.

And millennial, post-millennial, whatever. Doesn't really change that if you grow up in a certain part of the country, even the young people are still basically pro-gun for the most part. Not sure that's going to change anytime soon, especially with the data backing such a miniscule number of the rifles actually being involved in shootings.

*Shrugs* I'm not even particularly advocating for the "yay guns" view here. Just can't see why this time's any different. If Sandy Hook didn't magically persuade the other half of the country, this won't. Especially in a state like Florida. These classmates of the kid are probably in for a pretty rude awakening, when all is said and done - they'll all be fawned over as brave heroes in the press for "taking a stand", sure, but legislatively I doubt they're persuading anyone.

And Commissioner - how many, though? I suspect the major turnout for these rallies will probably be in states that lean blue anyway, and in somewhere like Texas you'll probably see equally emphatic counter-rallies. So it's like...cool, go for it, express yourselves by all means. There's nothing to say it'll be listened to, though, especially in states where the majority opinion still goes the other way.

At least they're trying. And that's how these things gain traction. It's better to try and fail than to go with your approach of shrugging.

 

[TheCommissioner]

Yeah, I'm sure Harvey Weinstein, Roy Moore, and various others all feel that the Woman's March didn't have much of an effect either. Effects aren't always immediate. And I think the very large contingent of new woman candidates in the mid terms will have an effect.

I saw a number recently and the amount of women running in elections (that have declared) is something like 5x what it was in 2012 or 2014

 

[DarthSkywalker]

...The women's march didn't amount to anything of substance either.

And millennial, post-millennial, whatever. Doesn't really change that if you grow up in a certain part of the country, even the young people are still basically pro-gun for the most part. Not sure that's going to change anytime soon, especially with the data backing such a miniscule number of the rifles actually being involved in shootings.

*Shrugs* I'm not even particularly advocating for the "yay guns" view here. Just can't see why this time's any different. If Sandy Hook didn't magically persuade the other half of the country, this won't. Especially in a state like Florida. These classmates of the kid are probably in for a pretty rude awakening, when all is said and done - they'll all be fawned over as brave heroes in the press for "taking a stand", sure, but legislatively I doubt they're persuading anyone.

And Commissioner - how many, though? I suspect the major turnout for these rallies will probably be in states that lean blue anyway, and in somewhere like Texas you'll probably see equally emphatic counter-rallies. So it's like...cool, go for it, express yourselves by all means. There's nothing to say it'll be listened to, though, especially in states where the majority opinion still goes the other way.

The MeToo movement and the drastic increase in the amount of women who ran for office and plenty who actually won want to know how it amounted to nothing.

 

[Teelie]

The effect of a movement isn't always immediately felt, no. Look how long it took women's suffrage, the civil rights movement and other similar social pressures to accomplish their goals. They might move slowly at first but once they pick up steam they are hard to stop.

 

[LTuser]

Still one of my favorite opinions. Maybe not $5000 but, make bullets far more difficult to acquire.

But then wouldn't that be seen as racist to the "Poor minorities"?? As it would in effect, price them out of ever owning a firearm?

This year, no. Next year, no. But give it 10-15 years. Another generation growing up with active shooter drills. And god knows how many more mass shootings. When these kids aren't just the voters, but the actual leaders?

Yeah, I can see a total ban in the future. I mean, marijuana is already on the cusp of legalization.

Heck i wouldn't be surprised if in 15-20 years, when enough of these liberally indoctrinated kids grow up and become the mass voting block, they push for a national referendum on getting rid of the 2nd amendment entirely...

BUT then not everyone who's survived these killings are on the "GUNS = Evil, lets ban it bandwagon"

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...-carry-gun-laws-in-colorado-schools/23366348/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-pushes-to-end-gun-free-zones-in-schools.html

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27326/columbine-survivor-introduces-bill-expand-allow-ryan-saavedra

have we seen this before?

yeah some angry parents, but this feel different

kids walking out of schools across the country - happened in DC today, happening here in CT next week, Texas soon as well

And what i would love to know on all of these protests is WHO's organizing it??
Who got all the parents to sign OFF on their kids being taken (or let) out of school in this mass # day after day?
Who's paying for all those protest signs? All the buses to take them from point A to C? Filling out the paperwork for all the permits to have these large protests????

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

^^^
You’ve got to be f**king kidding me...

 

[moviedoors]

...and out comes the tinfoil hat.

 

[Iceman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43149694
Trump endorses guns for teachers to stop shootings

 

[Sithborg]

Of course, not all the survivors are for total bans. But, I think a good majority of them are against the current status quo, and are for bans on certain types.

But, lets see how the generation shapes up with a couple hundred more incidents.

 

[squeekness]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43149694
Trump endorses guns for teachers to stop shootings

Because he's an idiot.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I saw a number recently and the amount of women running in elections (that have declared) is something like 5x what it was in 2012 or 2014

This administration also got scientist running for office in numbers never before seen.

God forbid we have actual scientist who understand the data of things being presented dictating our science policies!