The Guns thread - Part 1

[AndrewGilkison]

Its ironic how conservatives always attack Hollywood but their solutions to gun violence is always right out of an action movie. "A good guy with a gun"... blah blah blah.

The truth is that a "good guy with a gun" has about the same chance of stopping a mass shooting in progress as they do with taking down the attacker unarmed. Both depend on being lucky and being in the right place at the right time when such an attack is actually happening.

Its one thing to imagine being able to take down a shooter in your own fantasy but its completely another thing to have to do it in real life, while a mass shooting is actually going on and bullets are actually flying and its chaos everywhere. Fear and adrenaline take over. The fact that people are actually suggesting this as a real solution is bonkers.

Stop telling me that stricter regulation on guns won't solve this problem and then try to sell me on the idea that everyone can turn into Rambo when a mass shooter comes into a room if we just allowed them to arm themselves.

 

[squeekness]

Seems your view is incredibly narrow as well. Arming teachers is but one thing that can be done. Schools really need to look at how they're secured as many have multiple entrances and exits that just about anyone can use. Securing a school should be looked at as more keeping unwanted people out than keeping students in. Also, things need to be done so background checks are more thorough and law enforcement/government entities can better manage mentally-ill or physically dangerous people before they cause harm.

The trouble with great doors is what do you do when the shooter lures peoe outside at first like this guy did? That's a whole new problem to deal with now.

 

[Donner]

Arming teachers just makes an already terrified population even more scared.

More guns does not a relaxed society make. It just makes everyone paranoid. Combine that with a lethal weapon and you have a huge problem.

 

[squeekness]

Arming teachers just makes an already terrified population even more scared.

More guns does not a relaxed society make. It just makes everyone paranoid. Combine that with a lethal weapon and you have a huge problem.

I hear that. I want less, not more.

 

[Sithborg]

It is important to remember a few things.

Most of these mass shooters aren't planning on escaping. Suicide by cop, as it were. So, there goes the deterrent.

And lets, look at what one would expect to be the hardest of hard targets, a military base.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Fort_Hood_shooting

I mean, once the shock that I realized that there were 2 goddamn mass shootings in Fort Hood. Which, just goes to show just how much these things are beginning to blend together.

I am still waiting for Trump to suggest bringing in Blackwater for security, since Erik Prince didn't get Afghanistan as a fiefdom or able to privatize the intelligence network.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Its ironic how conservatives always attack Hollywood but their solutions to gun violence is always right out of an action movie. "A good guy with a gun"... blah blah blah.

The truth is that a "good guy with a gun" has about the same chance of stopping a mass shooting in progress as they do with taking down the attacker unarmed. Both depend on being lucky and being in the right place at the right time when such an attack is actually happening.

Its one thing to imagine being able to take down a shooter in your own fantasy but its completely another thing to have to do it in real life, while a mass shooting is actually going on and bullets are actually flying and its chaos everywhere. Fear and adrenaline take over. The fact that people are actually suggesting this as a real solution is bonkers.

Stop telling me that stricter regulation on guns won't solve this problem and then try to sell me on the idea that everyone can turn into Rambo when a mass shooter comes into a room if we just allowed them to arm themselves.

Considering the school resource officer was outside the building within 90 seconds of the first shots and then didn't follow standard police protocol (Broward Co. sheriff even said that's their protocol) to enter the building immediately to confront the shooter, it speaks more to the cowardice of this one officer than it does the efficacy of armed guards/police in schools. One act of police cowardice doesn't mean cops in schools doesn't work since most cops say them being there as a detterent stops most instances of violence.

 

[squeekness]

Again, if we're going to expect more of these guys, then the pay and the training had better be worth it. This isn't the sort of thing you want go cheap on and have the guards wuss out.

 

[Sithborg]

Considering the school resource officer was outside the building within 90 seconds of the first shots and then didn't follow standard police protocol (Broward Co. sheriff even said that's their protocol) to enter the building immediately to confront the shooter, it speaks more to the cowardice of this one officer than it does the efficacy of armed guards/police in schools. One act of police cowardice doesn't mean cops in schools doesn't work since most cops say them being there as a detterent stops most instances of violence.

Again, 2, TWO, mass shootings at Fort Hood.

 

[mclay18]

First National Bank of Omaha, Enterprise, Alamo, and National have cut ties with the NRA

FNB of Omaha will stop producing credit cards for the NRA, while the latter three will stop offering NRA member discounts.

Looks like the NRA has become toxic, in the wake of the Florida mass shootings.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Again, 2, TWO, mass shootings at Fort Hood.

Military bases were basically gun-free zones up until about late 2016 (except for MPs and select few others allowed to carry) so it's not like the base is exactly teeming with armed people. On a base the size of Ft. Hood, those MPs are not going to be everywhere and the shooters attacked place he knew there wouldn't be much resistance.

https://www.military.com/daily-news...plan-allow-personnel-carry-firearms-base.html

 

[squeekness]

First National Bank of Omaha, Enterprise, Alamo, and National have cut ties with the NRA

FNB of Omaha will stop producing credit cards for the NRA, while the latter three will stop offering NRA member discounts.

Looks like the NRA has become toxic, in the wake of the Florida mass shootings.

Good.

 

[Donner]

Again, armed teachers would not serve as a deterrent. Mass shooters aren't logical thinkers. They're acting out emotionally. Cruz wouldn't have shot up a different school if Douglas had teachers with guns.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Considering the school resource officer was outside the building within 90 seconds of the first shots and then didn't follow standard police protocol (Broward Co. sheriff even said that's their protocol) to enter the building immediately to confront the shooter, it speaks more to the cowardice of this one officer than it does the efficacy of armed guards/police in schools. One act of police cowardice doesn't mean cops in schools doesn't work since most cops say them being there as a detterent stops most instances of violence.

I was talking about the idiotic idea of arming our teachers but that just reinforces my point. If we can't even guarantee that a cop will hold up under pressure during a mass shooting why would giving our teachers firearms work out any better?

More guns are not the solution. We need to look at our gun laws and where they are falling short and fix that problem. Giving everyone a gun isn't going to make an average citizen into an action hero that is able to stop a homicidal person with an AR-15.

 

[Aximili86]

I've been watching this whole latest gun debate from the safety of a country with sensible gun controls, and - like a majority of the planet - I cannot get my head around this obsession some Americans have with their guns.

All I can see is a lot of people acting like children, because somebody wants to take their toys away. It's as simple as that.

In the UK, we banned a vast majority of guns after Dunblane and we've never had another school shooting. The Australians had the same result after Port Arthur. It's insane that people can't understand that less guns means less gun deaths.

The worst thing for most Americans is that the rest of the world thinks you're a laughing stock. The overwhelming stupidity on display from anyone who is pro-gun just brings the rest of the nation down.

This latest idiocy about arming teachers is incredible. The idea that a history teacher could successfully engage a heavily armed shooter in close quarter combat is laughable. Even highly trained specialists would likely do no good in that situation.

The whole attitude of Americans about their guns was exemplified for me when I went clay pigeon shooting a few years ago, and two Americans turned up, all full of bluster about how great they were, because they come from a country where guns are celebrated and loved. They had easily the most expensive looking shotguns that day.

None of them shot above 30 on a round of 50. It was pathetic.

The world sees America's obsession with guns the same way we see a child's obsession with a shiny toy. Time to grow up.

My, someone's smug.

Canada's still pretty big on the guns. They're all over Australia too, when you broaden it out from semi-auto rifles to everything else included oo.

There's a problem in the U.S., absolutely, something needs to change. They don't need to hear it from a Brit of all people, that's not going to go over well. The U.S. isn't the UK, it's not Australia, it's way more ingrained than that here.

Oh, also? America shouldn't give two ****s what the rest of the world thinks of them, the exact same way a Brit shouldn't give two ****s about what an American thinks of their internal issues. It's totally irrelevant.

 

[LTuser]

You frequently make claims that have already been debunked and quote crack pot conspiracy websites as legitimate sources. If you want to be taken seriously, you're the one that needs to do better research.

How many times have you made the claim that the mass shooters have all been Democrats and how many times have other members proved that claim incorrect?

Yeesh.

So foxnews, GOPUSA, or that conservative treehouse are all crackpot conspiracy sites??

If that's the case, it seems no site i pull up, unless its a leftwing site like MSNBC will be seen as 'good...

I highly doubt Dylan Roof was a Democrat.

Did i ever claim they all were?? My first posting on this site (post 57, page 3 of this thread) i said majority..

While it shouldn't be a requirement for teachers to be armed, it should be made an option for those that want to do it and go through proper training.

And that's something i fully agree with. Even if only 1 in 7 teachers are that 'willing', with an average sized school having what, 40 or so teachers in it, that makes 5 to 6 who could be armed to defend the place. A lot better than 0 as is..

9 states already allow teachers to conceal carry so it's already happening at a smaller level. While not allowed in OH yet, this sheriff has offered free CCW training for teachers, which 300 of them signed up for but many more wanted to do.

http://kutv.com/news/nation-world/b...fers-free-concealed-carry-classes-to-teachers

And some of those state/local levels (like in Utah) have been doing it for a good 3+ years (from what i saw on CBS this evening).. Yet no 'armageddon' cause of the teachers being armed..

I'm so glad I don't live there.

So you are A) not a US citizen/resident and B) don't live here. Then why are you trying to dictate what WE should or shouldn't do??

And lets, look at what one would expect to be the hardest of hard targets, a military base.

Gee, are the military allowed to carry their weapons with them? NOPE.. As a 20 yr navy vet i can attest to that. On base, the weapons we were assigned, were always locked up in an armory. SO as long as you could get ON the base, with a hidden weapon, you would in effect, be in a shooting gallery..

Considering the school resource officer was outside the building within 90 seconds of the first shots and then didn't follow standard police protocol (Broward Co. sheriff even said that's their protocol) to enter the building immediately to confront the shooter, it speaks more to the cowardice of this one officer than it does the efficacy of armed guards/police in schools. One act of police cowardice doesn't mean cops in schools doesn't work since most cops say them being there as a detterent stops most instances of violence.

I heard that on the news, and was like "So they just let this guy retire? Why not bring charges of negligence or incompetence against him??

Good.

Would you be saying "Good", had it been a news report of banks refusing to do business with say planned parenthood??

Again, armed teachers would not serve as a deterrent. Mass shooters aren't logical thinkers. They're acting out emotionally. Cruz wouldn't have shot up a different school if Douglas had teachers with guns.

Hold on. Doesn't that then say that having armed teachers would DETER the shooter from going to that school??

 

[Aximili86]

To the last part, it does Elektra, yep.

We can't protect everywhere, no. If it wasn't a school, a crazy would just go to a mall or some other soft target, absolutely. That doesn't mean you don't harden up targets if you can though.

 

[Sithborg]

Maybe, just maybe, you should ask yourself why the military feels that weapons should be locked up as they are.

Also, based on the NRA rhetoric at CPAC, then yeah, I think they feel this is different as well. And are scared.

 

[Lily Adler]

Senator Marco Rubio Finds Himself in the Center of Gun Debate, Again

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...e-again/ar-BBJtfZr?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

 

[DeadPresident]

Again, armed teachers would not serve as a deterrent. Mass shooters aren't logical thinkers. They're acting out emotionally. Cruz wouldn't have shot up a different school if Douglas had teachers with guns.

In all likelihood he would’ve just mowed down some teachers first. The idea of arming teachers is ****ing moronic.

How long would it be before a teacher with some psychological conditions shoots up a school because a gun is nearby and accessible? How long before a kid steals it to do what Cruz did? The dangers far outweigh the benefits.

Edit: Typing on a phone is terrible.

 

[Aximili86]

That's pretty damn obviously why not just any teacher would be permitted to do it. You put them through insanely rigorous psych checks, a year or so of training with police, interview basically everyone in their life from spouses to family to friends and co-workers until the same guy that approves police recruits is satisfied.

We're cool with cops being armed as a society, right (protest groups aside)? Make the threshold the same. You already have to go through training for conceal & carry in those states, just extrapolate from there and make it a much higher bar. Again, we have trained, professional people in all sorts of public hubs. Airports, train stations, courts, public marches/gatherings and ****.

This isn't some anomaly case. Even without advocating for this, there's a sound a argument being made from the other side. It's hardly some out-there beyond the pale idea, we already do it with plenty of other aspects of society. If you're not paranoid about being shot by the airport guy with the submachine gun and the german shepard, there's no rational reason to be here. You just make sure the qualifications and mental evaluations are insanely rigorous to the point where 90%+ of people who want the job won't get it.

Not a one-stop fix, of course it's not. It might be a part of the whole here, though. You need to let go of this "just ban the ARs" thing, that's never happening federally. Best we're going to get is an addressing of the background checks, bans of the egregious bump-stock and body armor stuff, and a reworking of the way they flag potential problem-people. If they decide to trial some designated-armed-personnel thing as part of that, whatever. At this point it's probably worth a try.

 

[Sithborg]

Never say never. Especially with the generation of those who have to live with active shooter drills. You can tell the NRA is scared.

 

[Aximili86]

Don't know about "scared". This stuff is very vocal right now, it'll be interesting to see how long it lasts though. I'm thinking it won't spread to the mass populace, just the people who already see it that way anyway.

Like, on balance it seems Florida's still going to be in-favor of semi-autos staying legal, as an overall population. That didn't change after the nightclub shooting, which was far more people. What's different here, the outraged party is schoolkids instead of adult homosexuals?

Not sure why that'd give this more legs. It's Florida, they're about as pro-gun as it gets.

 

[Donner]

So foxnews, GOPUSA, or that conservative treehouse are all crackpot conspiracy sites??

If that's the case, it seems no site i pull up, unless its a leftwing site like MSNBC will be seen as 'good...



Did i ever claim they all were?? My first posting on this site (post 57, page 3 of this thread) i said majority..



Hold on. Doesn't that then say that having armed teachers would DETER the shooter from going to that school??

For ****s sake. The claim that the majority of mass shooters were Democrats is FALSE. It is fake news. Yeesh. And if those websites are parroting that BS, then yes, they're conspiracy websites and Fox is one of the worst. Everyone knows that.

As for your last point, what? I said that Cruz went after that school specifically. If the teachers were armed, it wouldn't have caused him to go after a different school. Was that not obvious in my post?

 

[BillPardy]

For ****s sake. The claim that the majority of mass shooters were Democrats is FALSE. It is fake news. Yeesh. And if those websites are parroting that BS, then yes, they're conspiracy websites and Fox is one of the worst. Everyone knows that.

As for your last point, what? I said that Cruz went after that school specifically. If the teachers were armed, it wouldn't have caused him to go after a different school. Was that not obvious in my post?

I'm starting to think they're not reading responses, just writing responses.

 

[Jericholyte]

So foxnews, GOPUSA, or that conservative treehouse are all crackpot conspiracy sites??

If that's the case, it seems no site i pull up, unless its a leftwing site like MSNBC will be seen as 'good...


So you are A) not a US citizen/resident and B) don't live here. Then why are you trying to dictate what WE should or shouldn't do?

Right, first of all, the links you have posted to are Wikipedia, Fox News, GOPUSA and the Conservative Treehouse.

1. Wikipedia can be edited by ANYONE
2. Fox News, GOPUSA and The Conservative Treehouse are not exaction bastions on unbiased fact-based articles.

Whilst you may personally agree with the views expressed on these sites, it does not make them factually accurate. It's why I never trust my racist grandma when she talks about immigrants. SHE may think it's true but it's not.

The key to showing evidence to prove your argument is to show a range of sites across the political spectrum that say the same thing. It's vital when looking at these sites that you look into WHO runs them. I tried looking at the Conservative Treehouse's 'About Us' section. Nothing about members of organisations, political leanings, experience in journalism, just rhetoric about Liberalism vs Conservatism. So a combination of that, Fox News (owned by a very strongly right wing mogul) and the website for the GOP are not the most reliable of sources. The exact same is true of those who only post strong left wing sources, there has to be a balance.

Secondly, anyone involved in the discussion has the right to voice an opinion (surely your 1st Amendment would give me the right to say that the 2nd Amendment can suck a ****). That's the whole point of discussions like this, to find the range of opinions and engage thoughtfully. I think that an Australian, for example, who had lived through the the Port Arthur Massacre and the subsequent enactment of gun control laws (by a conservative government by the way) might have a reasonable voice on whether gun control could work or not.