The Guns thread - Part 1

[B]

I know how to solve random gun attack problems. More guns. Arm more people.

Good idea..

 

[squeekness]

In all likelihood he would’ve just mowed down some teachers first. The idea of arming teachers is ****ing moronic.

How long would it be before a teacher with some psychological conditions shoot she up a school because a gun is nearby and accessible? How long before a kid steals it to do what Cruz did? The dangers far outweigh the benefits.

Exactly this.

 

[Aximili86]

Again, that's why you train them to cop standards, and psychoanalyze them to the same extent.

As for the stealing-their-guns thing, that applies to cops too. Any idiot could get the jump on a cop and snatch their glock. It pretty rarely happens, because the cops take precautions on that stuff. You'd have to train the school officers to do the same, but that obviously goes without saying. You're reaching here.

 

[Donner]

Again, that's why you train them to cop standards, and psychoanalyze them to the same extent.

As for the stealing-their-guns thing, that applies to cops too. Any idiot could get the jump on a cop and snatch their glock. It pretty rarely happens, because the cops take precautions on that stuff. You'd have to train the school officers to do the same, but that obviously goes without saying. You're reaching here.

This is getting ridiculous. Why not just make cops teachers? That would be way cheaper and require less training.

The whole idea of arming teachers is a total **** show. Even veterans think it's a bad idea and they've been shot at. They know what it's like and how hard it is to pull that trigger.

 

[DeadPresident]

"Just train the teachers to cop-level proficiency with firearms".

News flash, fam, if you look at the terrorist incidents in France and Belgium over the last two years you'd see even highly trained ops units can **** things up sometimes. You're asking teachers to essentially be trained to the point of being as proficient as a soldier in an active war zone as well as being competent instructors? You think someone who's a ****ing biology teacher as their primary vocation is somehow going to be able to react like a T-1000 on the off chance something goes down in the school? Pfffftt.

"Teacher accidentally shoots innocent teen during school shooting"

"Student finds unsupervised teacher-cop's gun and accidentally kills another student"

"Teacher has gun wrestled off him by disturbed student and is killed with it"

Some future headlines in this bizarre world where teachers are also armed prison wardens.

Hands down one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, and requires an impressive detachment from reality to think is actually feasible whatsoever.

 

[BillPardy]

Training them to the standards of cops is a great idea. Cops never accidentally shoot the wrong person in high stress situations. I can say I've never heard of a cop shooting an innocent person.

 

[moviedoors]

Where are they supposed to keep these guns anyway? A belt holster so they can quick draw at a moment’s notice? **** that. I’ll homeschool my little girl before I send her to a place like that.

 

[Teelie]

We also have to consider the logic behind this in lieu of mass shooters are mentally ill every time (according to gun activists) and yet we're supposed to believe they logically will not go in and shoot up a school knowing the teachers are armed (something that is usually not associated with mental illnesses where "shoot up the school" is involved). How does this actually work?

 

[Herofan]

It seems to me that, although unfortunate, a reasonable, logical way to reduce school shootings would be to have metal detectors and/or mandate having see-through backpacks.

 

[squeekness]

Training them to the standards of cops is a great idea. Cops never accidentally shoot the wrong person in high stress situations. I can say I've never heard of a cop shooting an innocent person.

Hee hee.

 

[Hotwire]

From Facebook.

Which teachers get guns?
Where will the guns be stored?
Who decides when guns can be brandished?
What penalties will apply if teachers mishandle a weapon?
Will teachers volunteer for gun duty?
Can teachers refuse it?
Who will audit their adherence to regulations?
Will teachers with a history of mental illness be allowed to use weapons?
Will teachers be required to disclose any history of mental illness?
Will teachers be issued a weapon? Reimbursed for purchase? For ammunition?
How will administrators conduct non-weapon-related discipline against a teacher? Will there be armed assistance available to deter workplace shootings?
Who will shepherd the armed teacher’s classroom while the teacher is attempting to locate the active shooter?
What happens when a teacher misidentifies a student as a threat in good faith?
Will teachers who do not carry lethal weapons be offered non lethal alternatives?
If an armed teacher is shot, can another teacher employ his or her weapon?
How will armed teachers identify themselves to arriving first responders?
Will armed teachers be required to learn how to give first-response medicine?
Will armed teachers be required to attempt an arrest before using lethal force? Under what circumstances?
Will proficiency training on weapons count for teachers’ continuing education and professional development?
How will insurers adjust health and other rates to account for the presence of armed employees?
Will teachers receive additional pay for being armed?
how often will armed teachers be re-evaluated for licensing purposes?
Will armed teachers leading field trips deposit their weapons in a personally owned vehicle or school-owned transport?
Will one teacher per wing of a school building receive weapons? Two? Three?
Exactly which standards will count for proficiency—greater than a big-city police department, State Police, FBI, hobbyist, marksman?
In training scenarios, how will using force against innocents be penalized?
Will racial sensitivity courses be required?
Do parents have a right to refuse to send their kids to schools with guns?
Will students have to sign waivers? Will parents? What if a parent signs a waiver for a minor student who, when that student turns 18, refuses to abide by its provisions?
Will teachers on probation be allowed to carry weapons?
What about teachers with active union grievances? Complaints about sexual harassment? Anger management? Divorce proceedings?
Will armed teachers wear holsters? Will they be stationed strategically during pep rallies or other gatherings? Will they participate in lockdown drills as if they were armed or unarmed?
Will funding for the policies outlined above be distributed according to local budgets, statewide formulas, or national formulas?
Will schools in high-risk neighborhoods receive more or less funding? Suburban schools?
What is the right ratio of armed:unarmed teachers by grade level?
What is the procedure for debriefing and assessing armed teachers’ performance during a crisis?
Can an armed teacher who flinches be fired? Can an armed teacher who breaks protocol be rewarded?
What is the right ratio of armed:unarmed teachers by grade level?
Will preschool teachers have guns?
Will teachers in “juvie” (high risk) schools have guns?
Will the teacher or the school be liable if their gun is stolen?
Can administrators carry weapons? Can they do so in disciplinary situations?

 

[squeekness]

Too much of a liability.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Where are they supposed to keep these guns anyway? A belt holster so they can quick draw at a moment’s notice? **** that. I’ll homeschool my little girl before I send her to a place like that.

With you being in TX, I'm sure you've been around someone who's conceal carrying and not even known. Even where I am, I've been in a room with multiple people conceal carrying and didn't know it until they started talking about guns. It's called concealed carry for that very reason.

 

[DeadPresident]

The idea of arming teachers is one of those concepts that sounds good in your head and absolutely falls apart when it gets logically applied, it's a dumpster fire of an idea.

What Americans at large really need to be asking themselves, and what we need some more insight on, is why there are so many people who find mass murder to be a path they want to go down.

It's clearly not solely access to guns, because there are countries with 50% as many guns, with less than 5% the number of mass shootings. What exactly is it about American culture and society that produces these guys?

 

[Webfoot Hero]

The idea of arming teachers is one of those concepts that sounds good in your head and absolutely falls apart when it gets logically applied, it's a dumpster fire of an idea.

What Americans at large really need to be asking themselves, and what we need some more insight on, is why there are so many people who find mass murder to be a path they want to go down.

It's clearly not solely access to guns, because there are countries with 50% as many guns, with less than 5% the number of mass shootings. What exactly is it about American culture and society that produces these guys?

If people really knew or wanted the answers and possible solutions, they'd be asking that but those are too hard for now, so gun control seems to be their only solution.

 

[Donner]

Gun control is a nice first step. Much better than arming teachers.

 

[DeadPresident]

If people really knew or wanted the answers and possible solutions, they'd be asking that but those are too hard for now, so gun control seems to be their only solution.

The true fallacy in the approach from most Americans at large is they've predetermined the 'cause' by deferring to their political ideology. Conservatives swear it's mental health and 'bad apples', liberals swear it's access to guns and bad regulation.

If all the kids in the room would just sit the **** down and the adults could do some research and think straight I'd bet my bottom dollar it's a collection of everyone's reasons and the USA would require a whole host of initiatives to impact it that would affect everyone. A good start would be research every facet of this problem, from mental health and gun access to whether impoverished areas are more affected, etc, etc.

But it ain't going to happen, too many people Stateside praise at the altar of Smith and Wesson to consider that their hallowed .45s are part of the problem. The gun culture in the states is probably bordering on certifiably pathological.

The part that gets me the most is the unreasonable appeal to the second amendment. Access to firearms being equated with liberty? Jesus Christ.

 

[moviefreak]

It's clearly not solely access to guns, because there are countries with 50% as many guns, with less than 5% the number of mass shootings. What exactly is it about American culture and society that produces these guys?

Been telling friends since the '80s that the USA society's obsession with Second Amendment and the general obsession, fetishisation with guns outside of rural/hunting community is bordering on madness. Some people claimed that it is akin to hobby --methink they need a new hobby instead.

In order for the high body count to come down, lawmakers need to craft & enforce legalisation for a countrywide ban on specific types of assault rifle like the AK 15 which can fire about 700 rounds/mins & scatter concrete.

The other solution is harder --a wholesale change of the gun culture. It's possible that in the future ownership of multiple weapons will go the way as smoking did in the last 3 decades.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Been telling friends since the '80s that the USA society's obsession with Second Amendment and the general obsession, fetishisation with guns outside of rural/hunting community is bordering on madness. Some people claimed that it is akin to hobby --methink they need a new hobby instead.

In order for the high body count to come down, lawmakers need to craft & enforce legalisation for a countrywide ban on specific types of assault rifle like the AK 15 which can fire about 700 rounds/mins & scatter concrete.

The other solution is harder --a wholesale change of the gun culture. It's possible that in the future ownership of multiple weapons will go the way as smoking did in the last 3 decades.

There's a big difference between cyclic rate and actual fire rate. Cyclic rate is the theoretical rate a gun could fire with endless ammo and consistent, fast trigger pulling. Actual fire rates take into account people not having superhuman/mechanical ability to fire that rapidly and the need to reload. More realistic number for a semi-automatic rifle and handgun is closer to 45-65 RPM, far lower than that 700 RPM number that thrown out by multiple people trying to pass gun control legislation. And before you throw out those weapons can be turned into automatics, modifying semi-autos into full-autos is already against the law and very rarely done.

Also, a lot of gun owners own multiple weapons because each one serves a different purpose. Handguns typically are for self-defense and target shooting. Shotguns and rifles are used for different forms of hunting and target shooting while also being used for home-defense.

 

[Greens]

Aren't guns barely ever used in self-defense? Like... a few hundred times a year, in a country with more than 300 million people.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Again, that's why you train them to cop standards, and psychoanalyze them to the same extent.

As for the stealing-their-guns thing, that applies to cops too. Any idiot could get the jump on a cop and snatch their glock. It pretty rarely happens, because the cops take precautions on that stuff. You'd have to train the school officers to do the same, but that obviously goes without saying. You're reaching here.

So are you familiar with the first mass shooting in America, Columbine? After that happened over 1 million armed police officers were hired for schools all across the USA to prevent any other such tragedy from happening again.

I totally forgot if that worked or not does anyone have any stats on how many mass school shootings have been avoided since they did that?

 

[moviefreak]

There's a big difference between cyclic rate and actual fire rate. Cyclic rate is the theoretical rate a gun could fire with endless ammo and consistent, fast trigger pulling. Actual fire rates take into account people not having superhuman/mechanical ability to fire that rapidly and the need to reload. More realistic number for a semi-automatic rifle and handgun is closer to 45-65 RPM, far lower than that 700 RPM number that thrown out by multiple people trying to pass gun control legislation. And before you throw out those weapons can be turned into automatics, modifying semi-autos into full-autos is already against the law and very rarely done.

Also, a lot of gun owners own multiple weapons because each one serves a different purpose. Handguns typically are for self-defense and target shooting. Shotguns and rifles are used for different forms of hunting and target shooting while also being used for home-defense.

There's no need to go into detail regarding the difference in firing rate and such --the end result is that we're left with shooters' ability to inflict high body count with a specific type of weapon, like the Smith & Wesson M&P 15 which is rather new as it came out in 2006. I'm not interested in things like handgun --I have handled them before in the '70s --my cousin's police issued revolver and small personal gun from two guys one who was a Russian diplomat who drunkly fired it in the air --luckily it was out in an open countryside lol.

I'm suggesting ban on owning and sale of military grade assault rifle. That would be the first step. The GOP-led Congress let the assault rifle ban to expire in 2004. Since then there were increase in shooters with assault rifles resulting in mass fatalities in Virginia Tech, Fort Hood, Aurora theater, a Sikh temple (Wisconsin), Newtown, and so forth.

 

[BillPardy]

So are you familiar with the first mass shooting in America, Columbine? After that happened over 1 million armed police officers were hired for schools all across the USA to prevent any other such tragedy from happening again.

I totally forgot if that worked or not does anyone have any stats on how many mass school shootings have been avoided since they did that?

I know there is sarcasm in this post as a whole. But people are always saying Columbine was the first, not knowing there was MANY before it. Columbine wasn't even the biggest, University of Texas in 1966 had more killed and injured.

Oldest one listed on Wikipedia was in 1764.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I know there is sarcasm in this post as a whole. But people are always saying Columbine was the first, not knowing there was MANY before it. Columbine wasn't even the biggest, University of Texas in 1966 had more killed and injured.

Oldest one listed on Wikipedia was in 1764.

Ya my bad, we've had so many mass school shootings I should have totally been more specific as to not confuse people.

My corrected post should say First Mass Public School Shooting involving Major Media exposure. So over 1 million armed police officers were put on public school grounds to prevent future tragedies.

Again, what are the statistics on all these armed officers that stopped these mass shootings?

Let's just ignore all the mass shootings that happened before Columbine just for arguments sake.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

There's no need to go into detail regarding the difference in firing rate and such --the end result is that we're left with shooters' ability to inflict high body count with a specific type of weapon, like the Smith & Wesson M&P 15 which is rather new as it came out in 2006. I'm not interested in things like handgun --I have handled them before in the '70s --my cousin's police issued revolver and small personal gun from two guys one who was a Russian diplomat who drunkly fired it in the air --luckily it was out in an open countryside lol.

I'm suggesting ban on owning and sale of military grade assault rifle. That would be the first step. The GOP-led Congress let the assault rifle ban to expire in 2004. Since then there were increase in shooters with assault rifles resulting in mass fatalities in Virginia Tech, Fort Hood, Aurora theater, a Sikh temple (Wisconsin), Newtown, and so forth.

Seems your research to assert your position was a bit flimsy on those mass shootings as nearly every one you listed had no semi-auto rifle involved or other guns were used in conjunction with a semi-auto rifle. Here's the breakdown:
-Virginia Tech shooter used 2 pistols to kill 30+ people.
-Both Fort Hood shootings were done by people carrying handguns to commit the crimes.
-The Aurora shooter used both a shotgun and handgun in addition to his rifle.
-The Sikh Temple shooting was done with a pistol also.
-Only Newtown as done solely by a semi-auto rifle.

Just going off the list of high-profile mass shootings since the AWB banned ended, it's pretty equally split between those committed with semi-auto rifles and those done with pistols/handguns.