The Dark Knight Rises The Harvey Dent Act: what does it mean for Batman?

[kvz5]

Like what others suggested I think the Harvey Dent Act has more to do with the criminals rather than Bats being a vigilante. And I'm still of the opinion that Batman has been active all throughout (or at least a majority of it) those 8 years helping Gordon out in cleaning up Gotham.

 

[DKDetective]

I don't think Bruce retires the whole 8 years, but I think by the time the film starts, he'll already have hung up the suit. Him being stuck in time could mean a whole bunch of different things, but I just can't see Nolan going the "Rocky" route with Bane breaking him early just for him to re-train and win at the end, at least that chronologically.

I'm still unsure if Bane "breaks" him at all, at least in the literal sense, just like Dent wasn't scarred during trial, although Nolan gave a nod and a wink to us with the jammed gun.

I understand you position based on what you said in the 8 Years Later thread and you have some strong points. It just doesn't jive with me based on what Nolan said about Bruce being stuck in time especially given the context of Bale's comments about anger and rage not lasting forever.

But Harvey Dent was scarred based on Maroni's orders. He and the other mob bosses unleashed the Joker against Batman/Gordon/Dent. I agree that Nolan won't have an over the top breaking like the comics, but I think Bruce will suffer some major injury. Why else is there that video and pictures of Bruce walking with a cane?

 

[floreairfoot]

It does look like he is publicly disgracing Dent in some way. Holds up a photo of him and then eventually rips it up.

It would be very interesting to see how Gotham responds to news like that.

It doesn't have to be disgrace though, he could simply be saying something like... "Why lean on the memory of a dead man, when I can be your true savior of Gotham, and rid you of the Batman" blah, blah, blah.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Bane may be trying to draw out a retired Batman because he wants a worthy opponent. Even if it means bringing an entire city to it's knees.

That would be a completely accurate depiction of Bane.

But we keep seeing pic of Bane addressing crowds of people. If he was truly a public menace why wouldn't the police just take him out at that point.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Like what others suggested I think the Harvey Dent Act has more to do with the criminals rather than Bats being a vigilante. And I'm still of the opinion that Batman has been active all throughout (or at least a majority of it) those 8 years helping Gordon out in cleaning up Gotham.

I'm warming up to the idea of Batman spending 8 years cleaning up Gotham. This sets up a cartoon or tv series to chronicle those 8 years.

But the Harvey Dent Act is being built up as something that cleaned up Gotham without Batman.

Could a fugitive Batman co-exist with a Harvey Dent Act that is so tough on crime it cleans up Gotham completely. Batman would have way too much heat on him.

 

[buff17]

With the political themes that came into play with the TDK, I'd imagine the "Harvey Dent Act" may be a play on the "Patriot Act"....maybe Bane is there to initially to expose Dent, and "liberate" the citizens of Gotham since this new act has taken away certain freedoms. Maybe he's there to promote a rebellion- possibly the reason for a war torn, crumbling apart Gotham.

 

[Batmind]

But if Batman supposedly killed Dent it makes sense to name an anti-vigilante legislation after him in his honor.

Well, technically speaking he did kill Dent.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I kind of like the "take away freedoms" angle for the Harvey Dent Act but that may be too close to the themes of TDK.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Well, technically speaking he did kill Dent.

To save a hostage.

Anyway I like to think Harvey's death was "suicide by cop" or "suicide by superhero" in this case.

 

[DKDetective]

I'm warming up to the idea of Batman spending 8 years cleaning up Gotham. This sets up a cartoon or tv series to chronicle those 8 years.

But the Harvey Dent Act is being built up as something that cleaned up Gotham without Batman.

Could a fugitive Batman co-exist with a Harvey Dent Act that is so tough on crime it cleans up Gotham completely. Batman would have way too much heat on him.

I think he must. Nolan was pretty clear when said that Bruce is "stuck in time" when the story picks up 8 years later. I mean how can he truly describe someone as being stuck in time and in bad shape if his work as Batman is done and he has peacefully retired?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

An alternative reading of Nolan's comment would be that Bruce Wayne is reluctant to return as Batman ("What if he doesn't exist anymore?"), which is why Gordon begs him to do it. That is his brick wall. He has lost "the will to act" (Ra's al Ghul). He's frozen in time as only Bruce Wayne.

 

[Avengers-Report]

If there really is a "Harvey Dent Act", then I'm sure it has something to do with Batman. He did take the blame for Harvey's death. Plus, Batman took the blame so Harvey could inspire. The act may banish Batman, while inspiring Gotham to clean up crime.

 

[DKDetective]

An alternative reading of Nolan's comment would be that Bruce Wayne is reluctant to return as Batman ("What if he doesn't exist anymore?"), which is why Gordon begs him to do it. That is his brick wall. He has lost "the will to act" (Ra's al Ghul). He's frozen in time as only Bruce Wayne.

I guess but it doesn't make sense of Bale's comment about anger and moving on. Bale made it sound like Bruce hasn't been able to move on from his anger and grief and the crutch of channeling that into Batman.

 

[The Joker]

I think he must. Nolan was pretty clear when said that Bruce is "stuck in time" when the story picks up 8 years later. I mean how can he truly describe someone as being stuck in time and in bad shape if his work as Batman is done and he has peacefully retired?

Exactly. I think he's been suffering as "The Dark Knight" for those 8 years.

 

[godisawesome]

I kind of like the "take away freedoms" angle for the Harvey Dent Act but that may be too close to the themes of TDK.

Alternatively, it could be a way of saying that the city has become institutionally divided. You can have Gordon, Garcia, and all those who feel they need to make Dent's sacrifice count for something and thus have a Harvey Dent Act that cleans out corrupt government offices and gives them much more resources to finish off te mob and hold off the crazies, you have the people who may blame Batman and his kind for the current state of the city and only follow the law because they think Harvey Dent is worth it, and then you the rest. Those criminals, politicians, and ex-cops who were all gunning for Dent before he went toasty and who long for a return to the old status quo. So the act works, but only because the public likes Dent's image. If Bane can target that, he can meld an army out of the second and third group against the first.

 

[ALP]

I think you're onto something. Maybe that pic of Bane holding up the Harvey photo is him exposing the truth about Harvey which brings chaos to Gotham and now Batman needs to return to restore order.

Yes! It makes sense for Bane to reveal the truth which goes along with Gotham turning into total chaos.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Joker did say it will happen. It will just be delayed...for many, many, years.

BATMAN: This city just showed you that it's full of people ready to believe in good.

JOKER: Until their spirit breaks completely! Until they get a good look at the real Harvey Dent, and the all heroic things he's done. You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you? No. You need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey.

GORDON: Yes, I do. [both look at Two-Face's body on the ground] The Joker won. Harvey's prosecution, everything he fought for - undone. Any chance you gave us at fixing our city dies with Harvey's reputation. We bet it all on him. The Joker took the best of us and tore him down. People will lose hope.

BATMAN: They won't. They must never know what he did.

GORDON: Five dead, two of them cops? You can't sweep that up!

BATMAN: No. But the Joker cannot win. [kneels down next to Harvey, whose scarred left side is facing up] Gotham needs its true hero. [turns Harvey's head so that his unmarred side faces up]

GORDON: [immediately understanding] No!

BATMAN: [quoting Harvey Dent] "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." I can do those things because I'm not a hero, not like Dent. I killed those people. That's what I can be.

I read the script 2 weeks ago, and he’s done it. Plain and simple — he’s done it. It’s a phenomenal script. He’s still in the process of cutting it back because it’s a very long script right now, but it’s really phenomenal. And he actually had me go back and wanted me to watch, in IMAX, Batman Begins and The Dark Knight again. When I watched those I had read the script for The Dark Knight Rises and was like, ‘dude, it is a perfect trilogy.’ I think that was his intent, to work off those two pictures — and they are very different pictures. And it’s funny, we all had different opinions about which picture we like better.

And I think, perhaps surprisingly for some people, our story picks up quite a bit later. Eight years after The Dark Knight.

We find him -- obviously I can't give too much away because I'm sworn to secrecy -- but when we meet him, things are calmer in Gotham. It's reminiscent of the Gordon that we met in the first one. There's a world-weariness to him, and even though things on the surface are now calmer, he's cleaned up Gotham with the Harvey Dent Act, it's seething underneath.

TDKR:

 

[sly]

Perfect post. Thanks.

 

[Nevincer]

What's interesting is that many assumed TDKR would have Gotham go back to what it was in Begins with the fall of Dent. It's actually this time even cleaner thanks to the eight year gap and this "Harvey Dent Act" device, it seems.

 

[The Joker]

What's interesting is that many assumed TDKR would have Gotham go back to what it was in Begins with the fall of Dent.

By the fall of Dent do you mean his death? I don't know why anyone would think that. If that's what would happen then why would Batman even bother preserving Harvey's good name by taking the fall for his crimes.

 

[Nevincer]

By the fall of Dent do you mean his death? I don't know why anyone would think that. If that's what would happen then why would Batman even bother preserving Harvey's good name by taking the fall for his crimes.

Yes, his death. I at least always viewed what Batman did as damage control... things would still have been better for Gotham presumably if it's White Knight was still alive, but they avoided at the very least his name being tarnished.

 

[sly]

By the fall of Dent do you mean his death? I don't know why anyone would think that. If that's what would happen then why would Batman even bother preserving Harvey's good name by taking the fall for his crimes.

Dent became a martyr. Someone Gotham could rally behind, while Batman did all the dirty work in the shadows (along with Gordon) and cleaned up the city.

 

[The Joker]

Dent became a martyr. Someone Gotham could rally behind, while Batman did all the dirty work in the shadows (along with Gordon) and cleaned up the city.

Yeah, I know that. I'm saying why would anyone think things were going to get as bad as they were in Begins just because Dent had died. If that was the case then Batman wouldn't have bothered preserving Dent's name in the first place.

 

[Doc Samson]

I understand you position based on what you said in the 8 Years Later thread and you have some strong points. It just doesn't jive with me based on what Nolan said about Bruce being stuck in time especially given the context of Bale's comments about anger and rage not lasting forever.

But Harvey Dent was scarred based on Maroni's orders. He and the other mob bosses unleashed the Joker against Batman/Gordon/Dent. I agree that Nolan won't have an over the top breaking like the comics, but I think Bruce will suffer some major injury. Why else is there that video and pictures of Bruce walking with a cane?

I think because he's about 40 years old and has been fighting crime for a decade. I believe when Bane shows up, Bruce is already physically frail, and somewhat rusty because I do think he's stopped being the Bat for a short period of time. If he were forced into retirement, simply because Bane defeated him and broke him, I don't think he would be hesitant to come back. I don't think he'd be asking Gordon "What if he doesn't exist anymore?"

I just don't feel this version of Bruce Wayne would contemplate quitting based on his inability to beat Bane in hand to hand combat, I think it's deeper than that. I feel as though he's made Gotham better, indirectly, while Dent's influence made the public believe & the authorities more inspired, allowing him to rest, and mentally, address some of the issues he's been facing since his parents death. I think he reconciles this inner turmoil before Bane starts wrecking havoc, which is why he questions the validity of continuing this mission. I believe Bruce feels Batman may not "exist anymore," because after he comes face to face with his inner demons, that rage and pain that drove him for a decade won't exist anymore.

Actually I think this will be similar to BB, where TDK himself doesn't show up for a good length of time, maybe even half the movie. And ultimately he may decide to return, not because of a personal challenge to defeat Bane, but because Gotham falls into chaos from the truth of Dent, & finally needs & deserves a hero like "The Batman"

 

[Papa G]

I think because he's about 40 years old and has been fighting crime for a decade. I believe when Bane shows up, Bruce is already physically frail, and somewhat rusty because I do think he's stopped being the Bat for a short period of time. If he were forced into retirement, simply because Bane defeated him and broke him, I don't think he would be hesitant to come back. I don't think he'd be asking Gordon "What if he doesn't exist anymore?"

I just don't feel this version of Bruce Wayne would contemplate quitting based on his inability to beat Bane in hand to hand combat, I think it's deeper than that. I feel as though he's made Gotham better, indirectly, while Dent's influence made the public believe & the authorities more inspired, allowing him to rest, and mentally, address some of the issues he's been facing since his parents death. I think he reconciles this inner turmoil before Bane starts wrecking havoc, which is why he questions the validity of continuing this mission. I believe Bruce feels Batman may not "exist anymore," because after he comes face to face with his inner demons, that rage and pain that drove him for a decade won't exist anymore.

Actually I think this will be similar to BB, where TDK himself doesn't show up for a good length of time, maybe even half the movie. And ultimately he may decide to return, not because of a personal challenge to defeat Bane, but because Gotham falls into chaos from the truth of Dent, & finally needs & deserves a hero like "The Batman"

I agree, and I think that there is no literal "Harvey Dent Act", as in a piece of legislation. I took Oldman's comment to mean Batman taking the blame for the murders.