The Hunger Games: Catching Fire (2013) - Part 1

[dark_b]

we need more movies like HG. female blockbusters where there female is a strong character and doesnt cry for boys.

i like how both HG movies pass the Bechdel test without any f.... problem. and it scares me that noone from my female friends noticed this in HG2 and how it is in other movies.

 

[TheJediBrah]

So just so we're clear...you think the studios are NOT slow on the uptake that people actually want to watch females lead stories that aren't rom-coms? Or you believe their current output is sufficient with regards to female representation?

I dunno, I'm not a professional. All I know is they're exactly what they believe is best and you can't blame them for being hesitant to make female-led films.

Hopefully Hunger games leads to more good movies, regardless of what gender the lead is.

Honestly these are the only films I can think of with a female lead that I can sit through, off the top of my head. Not that there's been that many.

 

[Anita18]

It's not just about a female lead. Sucker Punch, Elektra, and Catwoman all had female leads, and their performance was ... unfortunate.

I think it comes down to telling a good story. What it comes down to is that HG:CF is simply a better movie than those other non-stories trounced at the box office.

HG:CF really makes Thor, Iron Man 3, Star Trek into Darkness, and Man of Steel look like they were rush jobs, with the screenplays composed by lazy writers embedded in a cloud of pot smoke, and probably just generally incompetent. It was just so refreshing to see an action movie with good dialogue, characters with distinctive personalities, act 1 tying into act 2 and tying into act 3, a climax resolution that isn't based on pseudoscience or brute force but rather on brains and that ties into the point of the story, and a compelling and believable villain.

I think the issue is that when a movie with a male lead fails, everyone knows it's because of a bad script or whatever. But when a movie with a female lead fails, studios assume it's because female leads don't work. But that's wrong, they obviously do. The problem with bad movies with female leads stem from the same issues as every other movie - a bad script.

When many screenwriters write women, they assume that all women want is to get a man or girl power I hate men rawr. The best films with a female lead don't fall into either of those traps. The women, like their male counterparts, find themselves in extraordinary circumstances and we watch them struggle to get themselves out of it. That's compelling no matter what the gender of the character. The only difference between a male and female lead is what they can physically do, because watching a woman beat her chest being the alpha male is just too unbelievable even for most action movie fans.

And yes, Peeta is maligned as the "movie girlfriend" in CF but he didn't sit around being completely useless or scream for help. He held his own, even if he talked about his feelings and was willing to sacrifice himself for the main character. I found it refreshing how they played with movie tropes but didn't turn the characters into complete caricatures. That takes a brave screenwriter and a brave studio to get on board.

Because what the big studios want is formula, which means tired scripts and caricatures for characters, which means female characters are usually written lamely. It was just our luck that Hunger Games didn't have such tacky tropes and it was a bestselling book series, and the book sales were what Hollywood looked at first.

 

[DA_Champion]

If I had a daughter I would hope she would be more into this than Twilight!

If I had a girlfriend I would hope she would be more into this than Twilight!

 

[DA_Champion]

I think the issue is that when a movie with a male lead fails, everyone knows it's because of a bad script or whatever. But when a movie with a female lead fails, studios assume it's because female leads don't work. But that's wrong, they obviously do. The problem with bad movies with female leads stem from the same issues as every other movie - a bad script.

When many screenwriters write women, they assume that all women want is to get a man or girl power I hate men rawr. The best films with a female lead don't fall into either of those traps. The women, like their male counterparts, find themselves in extraordinary circumstances and we watch them struggle to get themselves out of it. That's compelling no matter what the gender of the character. The only difference between a male and female lead is what they can physically do, because watching a woman beat her chest being the alpha male is just too unbelievable even for most action movie fans.

And yes, Peeta is maligned as the "movie girlfriend" in CF but he didn't sit around being completely useless or scream for help. He held his own, even if he talked about his feelings and was willing to sacrifice himself for the main character. I found it refreshing how they played with movie tropes but didn't turn the characters into complete caricatures. That takes a brave screenwriter and a brave studio to get on board.

Because what the big studios want is formula, which means tired scripts and caricatures for characters, which means female characters are usually written lamely. It was just our luck that Hunger Games didn't have such tacky tropes and it was a bestselling book series, and the book sales were what Hollywood looked at first.

I really like that Peeta is damn clever in the two movies. From "You smell good" to "if it wasn't of the baby"... he's just really clever.

Let me know when Rachel Dawes or Pepper Potts are ever that clever.

Anyway it doesn't just take a brave screenwriter, it takes a smart one. Michael Ardnt, Simon Beaufoy, and Suzanne Collins are simply better writers than pretty much anybody working on the bulk of action movies.

 

[baerrtt]

Oh believe me, I'm not expecting the message to get through their thick skulls in one go. It's just a nice stepping stone toward them eventually getting a clue, lol.

If CATCHING FIRE beats IM 3, as I believe it will, in becoming the no 1 top grossing movie domestically it would've been 40 years since THE EXORCIST that the biggest movie of the year has had a top billed female.....a fact that's ludicrous on every level.

I can accept the excuse that back in the 70s studio execs were surprised when movies from exclusively male oriented genres started making the big money (THE GODFATHER, ROCKY, JAWS, STAR WARS etc) and thus, ALIEN notwithstanding, couldn't imagine or conceive that those types of movies could have a female centre as they had prior assumed that respectively a gangster, boxing, monster or sci fi movie had no interest for female viewers anyway.

However at some point caution led to bias and if CATCHING FIRE does beat IM 3 shouldn't that alone be the ultimate answer? That audiences have always and will always embrace big movies that entertain them irrespective of the gender of the lead?

 

[DA_Champion]

Let us not forget that all of the men are well-written in this movie:

Gale
Peeta
Haymitch
President Snow
Plutarch
Finnick
Beetee
Cinna
Caeser

They all have distinct personalities that make sense and that contribute to the plot in an organic manner. I wish that any of Tony Stark, Thor, or Clark Kent were this well-written, let alone their secondary or tertiary characters. I know it's impossible, but I would have been happy to see more of each of those characters.

As an example, compare how well-written Beetee is to the two scientists in Pacific Rim. I hated those two clowns in Pacific Rim, there are no scientists anywhere who behave like them, and that's not how science works. In contrast, Beetee takes his time building what he builds, it's not an outlandish device that would require a labour force of 1,000 15 years to put together, he has relatively limited social skills without being steve urkel / sheldon cooper, he doesn't speak in a nasal voice for no apparent reason, and he's never humiliated by the other characters.

 

[dark_b]

they are old men in an office. this is hollywood. they are THAT stupid

 

[Anita18]

Let us not forget that all of the men are well-written in this movie:

Gale
Peeta
Haymitch
President Snow
Plutarch
Finnick
Beetee
Cinna
Caeser

They all have distinct personalities that make sense and that contribute to the plot in an organic manner. I wish that any of Tony Stark, Thor, or Clark Kent were this well-written, let alone their secondary or tertiary characters. I know it's impossible, but I would have been happy to see more of each of those characters.

As an example, compare how well-written Beetee is to the two scientists in Pacific Rim. I hated those two clowns in Pacific Rim, there are no scientists anywhere who behave like them, and that's not how science works. In contrast, Beetee takes his time building what he builds, it's not an outlandish device that would require a labour force of 1,000 15 years to put together, he has relatively limited social skills without being steve urkel / sheldon cooper, he doesn't speak in a nasal voice for no apparent reason, and he's never humiliated by the other characters.

I'm a scientist and I loved those two clowns in Pacific Rim. It was clearly not a serious movie, nor serious characterizations. If Beetee had acted like them in CF, it would have taken us out of the film immediately.

You're right that every character was well-written in CF. They had their own motivations, and they were believable. I still hated the love triangle (I always hate love triangles), but at least you knew where Gale was coming from.

 

[DA_Champion]

I'm a scientist too Astrophysics.

I kind of liked the love triangle in this movie because it was different. I think a lot of people hate love triangles because they are all the same... Bella-Jacob-Edward is the universal template. This is a different template. The story makes no attempt to make us believe that Katniss will choose Peeta over Gale unless she is forced to; Peeta has no hallucinations about this situations, and this adds to the tragedy of his character imo.

Further, if we ignore physical appearance, both Peeta and Gale have their traits and I think many women would pick one and many others the other. It's not a phony love triangle where the preference is obvious, where every audience member would make the same choice. Katniss' preference for Gale is intrinsic to her character.

A good analogy: Don Draper picking Megan Calvet over Faye Miller in Mad Men. Not every men would make the same choice, it wasn't a phony choice, so it revealed a lot about Don's personality.

 

[Iceman]

I think the issue is that when a movie with a male lead fails, everyone knows it's because of a bad script or whatever. But when a movie with a female lead fails, studios assume it's because female leads don't work. But that's wrong, they obviously do. The problem with bad movies with female leads stem from the same issues as every other movie - a bad script.

When many screenwriters write women, they assume that all women want is to get a man or girl power I hate men rawr. The best films with a female lead don't fall into either of those traps. The women, like their male counterparts, find themselves in extraordinary circumstances and we watch them struggle to get themselves out of it. That's compelling no matter what the gender of the character. The only difference between a male and female lead is what they can physically do, because watching a woman beat her chest being the alpha male is just too unbelievable even for most action movie fans.

And yes,
....
....
....
....
on board.

Because what the big studios want is formula, which means tired scripts and caricatures for characters, which means female characters are usually written lamely. It was just our luck that Hunger Games didn't have such tacky tropes and it was a bestselling book series, and the book sales were what Hollywood looked at first.

Agreed on female leads. They've never been given good material consistently enough to get a fair trial. And execs are probably making the wrong link. It's great that a major film, possibly no.1 domestic this year will feature a great female character played by a great young actress, the best combination of both in a major blockbuster for a fair while. If it does come in at no.1 surely that will give the execs something to think about.

Btw was the 3rd paragraph a spoiler? Not sure if i read it correctly.

 

[terry78]

As TVTropes puts it, most writers are male. The reason Frozen got so much attention aside from it just being good is that Jennifer Lee pretty much wrote the screenplay on her own and co-directed with Chris Buck.

 

[dark_b]

it would be nice if a female director could direct a big budget blockbuster movie.

 

[Iceman]

As TVTropes puts it, most writers are male. The reason Frozen got so much attention aside from it just being good is that Jennifer Lee pretty much wrote the screenplay on her own and co-directed with Chris Buck.

Yeah, that's probably part of the problem. Should be more women writing scripts. Certainly proficient when writing books so I don't know why there wouldn't be a good number capable of doing well on film scripts.

 

[Loki882]

To be fair, not ALL male writers write poor female characters. Whedon, Spielberg, Cameron, Scott, etc all write female characters well for the most part.

 

[terry78]

Yeah, they definitely do. I think the issue is that aren't many chicks in the industry with their kind of pull.

 

[Loki882]

True.

 

[Teelie]

I would have thought that Angelina Jolie and Kate Beckinsale's success would have already gotten that point across, guess not.

Or you can argue back to the original badass female lead, Sigourney Weaver (Ellen Ripley). It's as I said earlier, the wheels are moving slowly in Hollywood. Maybe a bit faster now but at least they are moving.

 

[Teelie]

it would be nice if a female director could direct a big budget blockbuster movie.

Would The Hurt Locker count? Katherine Bigelow is kind of a big name though, being the ex-wife of James Cameron and a well-established director beforehand.

Outside of her and a few other names though, I can't think of many female directors in movies.

 

[Loki882]

There's also Sophia Coppola, daughter of "Mr. Godfather" Francis Ford Coppola.

 

[DA_Champion]

How many women directors not related to famous men directors?

 

[Teelie]

I was thinking of that myself. Off hand I can't think of anyone not directly releated to someone famous by either blood or marriage.

Pamela Fryman is the only one to spring immediately to mind and she's only television.

 

[Snow Queen]

I don't believe Mary Harron is related to any.

 

[Persona]

Claire Denis (had to up the font on this one cuz she's awesome)
Lina Wertmuller
Lynne Ramsay
Agnieszka Holland

to name a few...

 

[Anita18]

Agreed on female leads. They've never been given good material consistently enough to get a fair trial. And execs are probably making the wrong link. It's great that a major film, possibly no.1 domestic this year will feature a great female character played by a great young actress, the best combination of both in a major blockbuster for a fair while. If it does come in at no.1 surely that will give the execs something to think about.

Btw was the 3rd paragraph a spoiler? Not sure if i read it correctly.

Not really. Not any more than what they showed in the first film.