Civil War The Iron Man Thread (Cap 3 Edition)

[Iron_Stark]

Bucky was a torture victim; all Tony can claim was a vision by SW that played on his ego. Neither the US government or the United Nations asked Tony to create a global defense program. Even Bruce knew that what Tony was doing was inherently risky. Even though Tony did his best to compensate for what he had done, it doesn't change the fact that an entire city was displaced, the world was put at risk, and people died because of Stark's AI program. Logically, Stark should be in jail for a long time.

If he's a victim then he needs to turn himself in. The only people that know that he was brainwashed are Cap, and a bunch of Hydra scientists.

He needs to turn himself in and prove his innocence. Get a lawyer and face due process.

Because as far as anyone knows, Bucky is a terrorist and for Tony, the guy that assassinated his parents.

As far as Tony, it's obvious he's already talked to the government and he's walking around a free man, so there's no point in saying he needs to be in jail.

 

[Lantern Venom]

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That's the whole point of the registration act, The Avengers were put in a position above the law where Tony was free to make a call like that, hence why he's in support of it as he had a big wake-up call as to how the Avengers need to be held accountable. None of this is an excuse for Cap's naive, childish and criminal act of hiding a killer.

The Avengers were initially put together by a government agency: SHIELD. They were not designed to be above the law, and there autonomy in AoU was the result of SHIELD's failure to identify and deal with turncoats in their ranks. That's not the Avengers' fault.

Tony's AI program was reckless, and even if he realized that after the fact, it's *HIS* mistake, not the Avengers as a unit. Cap, Thor, and Bruce have a healthy understanding of the risks that their power brings, whereas Tony petulantly invites terrorist organizations to attack his place of residence because he's upset. Logically, he should still be on trial for his criminal negligence before he should even have a chance to be a part of any government operation.

 

[Lantern Venom]

If he's a victim then he needs to turn himself in. The only people that know that he was brainwashed are Cap, and a bunch of Hydra scientists.

He needs to turn himself in and prove his innocence. Get a lawyer and face due process.
.

A guy who is obviously suffering from PTSD is supposed to turn himself over to a draconian hothead like General Ross or a government agency that was infiltrated by the very terrorist organization that tortured him?

 

[Hunter Rider]

The Avengers were initially put together by a government agency: SHIELD. They were not designed to be above the law, and there autonomy in AoU was the result of SHIELD's failure to identify and deal with turncoats in their ranks. That's not the Avengers' fault.

Tony's AI program was reckless, and even if he realized that after the fact, it's *HIS* mistake, not the Avengers as a unit. Cap, Thor, and Bruce have a healthy understanding of the risks that their power brings, whereas Tony petulantly invites terrorist organizations to attack his place of residence because he's upset. Logically, he should still be on trial for his criminal negligence before he should even have a chance to be a part of any government operation.

He wouldn't be on trial as he and the Avengers as a whole have been placed in a position beyond the normal rules. Tony is so valuable to the military and the country and is the only one capable of bringing in two suped up soldiers due to his tech. At any point do you intend to address how wrong Cap's actions are in protecting a murderer just because they were buddies? All those high and mighty principles ditched in a heartbeat.

 

[Hunter Rider]

A guy who is obviously suffering from PTSD is supposed to turn himself over to a draconian hothead like General Ross or a government agency that was infiltrated by the very terrorist organization that tortured him?

No he should just keep living free because bless him it's not his fault. come on! The guy has killed Zod knows how many innocent people, he has to be brought in and Cap of all people should know this. He could even turn himself in to another country given he murdered worldwide.

 

[Iron_Stark]

A guy who is obviously suffering from PTSD is supposed to turn himself over to a draconian hothead like General Ross or a government agency that was infiltrated by the very terrorist organization that tortured him?

Well now you're not making any sense, you say Tony needs to face punishment for Ultron, basically to turn himself in or for them to arrest him, but Bucky shouldn't because that same government that Tony needs to face is corrupt?

Doesn't compute.

But with Bucky it's not just the U.S. government, he assassinated a lot of people all over the world. Brainwashed or not he's a terrorist, mass murderer, that has been killing since the cold war. Dude needs to face the consequences or prove his innocence.

In fact Scarlett Witch should also turn herself in while we're at it. He aided and abetted Ultron in numerous crimes and murders.

 

[TalismanRing]

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The Avengers were initially put together by a government agency: SHIELD. They were not designed to be above the law, and there autonomy in AoU was the result of SHIELD's failure to identify and deal with turncoats in their ranks. That's not the Avengers' fault.

Tony's AI program was reckless, and even if he realized that after the fact, it's *HIS* mistake, not the Avengers as a unit. Cap, Thor, and Bruce have a healthy understanding of the risks that their power brings, whereas Tony petulantly invites terrorist organizations to attack his place of residence because he's upset. Logically, he should still be on trial for his criminal negligence before he should even have a chance to be a part of any government operation.

Tony was suffering from PTSD and reacting emotionally to Happy being blown up by terrorists. He wasn't being petulant. But I guess PTSD is only sympathetic if you're an unstable brainwashed murderer.

Bruce was right there being mad scientists along with Tony for Ultron and Vision. It was reckless to experiment with alien technology even if it was a plan to protect the world but their hearts were in the right place. It was done out of a desire to protect.

The gov't though should know all about recklessly experiencing with alien tech since that was what SHIELD was doing with the Tesserect which wound up inviting Loki and Alien Invasion. Except they were building weapons and not potential guardians like Tony.

SHIELD has more problems than just having turncoats. They were rotten from the inside and HYDRA was able to hide in plain sight because many of SHIELD's actions and beliefs aligned with HYDRA/s. The same way the WSC was able to be manipulated by Pierce because they were a rotten bunch willing to nuke NYC and implement Project Insight. Which is also why I don't blame Steve at all for not trusting a new controller that's probably as rotten to the core as the last couple.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Well now you're not making any sense, you say Tony needs to face punishment for Ultron, basically to turn himself in or for them to arrest him, but Bucky shouldn't because that same government that Tony needs to face is corrupt?

Doesn't compute.

But with Bucky it's not just the U.S. government, he assassinated a lot of people all over the world. Brainwashed or not he's a terrorist, mass murderer, that has been killing since the cold war. Dude needs to face the consequences or prove his innocence.

In fact Scarlett Witch should also turn herself in while we're at it. He aided and abetted Ultron in numerous crimes and murders.

Given time, treatment, and a stable government agency to oversee super-powered people, Bucky might be convinced to turn himself in. But right now he's like an untreated schizophrenic who can't be expected to process the weight of what he's done. All he knows is that he was tortured, taken out of his own time, and turned into a weapon. Based on his appearance and interaction with Cap in Ant-man, neither Cap or Bucky have had much time to make a logical decision on how to proceed. Bucky is confused and scared, so it makes complete sense that he's not willing to trust a time and world that's alien to him.

I said the same thing about Scarlet Witch after AoU, and I can only guess that her (seeming) impunity after the Ultron affair came because the only people who actually knew she was aiding Ultron were the Avengers and Klaw. Her clandestine activities might be hard to prove given that her public appearances were after she turned on Ultron. It will be interesting to see if Tony or Steve bring up the truth about her in CW.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Tony was suffering from PTSD and reacting emotionally to Happy being blown up by terrorists. He wasn't being petulant. But I guess PTSD is only sympathetic if you're an unstable brainwashed murderer.

Bruce was right there being mad scientists along with Tony for Ultron and Vision. It was reckless to experiment with alien technology even if it was a plan to protect the world but their hearts were in the right place. It was done out of a desire to protect.

The gov't though should know all about recklessly experiencing with alien tech since that was what SHIELD was doing with the Tesserect which wound up inviting Loki and Alien Invasion. Except they were building weapons and not potential guardians like Tony.

SHIELD has more problems than just having turncoats. They were rotten from the inside and HYDRA was able to hide in plain sight because many of SHIELD's actions and beliefs aligned with HYDRA/s. The same way the WSC was able to be manipulated by Pierce because they were a rotten bunch willing to nuke NYC and implement Project Insight. Which is also why I don't blame Steve at all for not trusting a new controller that's probably as rotten to the core as the last couple.

Imagine what Tony did in a real world scenario. Let's say a hero marine came back to the US from the Middle East, where his best friend had been murdered by a terrorist group. He gets some intel about a cell from that group being in NYC, so he finds a way to bait them into a fight in Central Park. I think a lot of people would understand his anger, and sympathize with his emotional trauma, but that wouldn't stop him from being in deep legal trouble.

Chris Evans said it best when he put Cap's plight as coming from a time when the lines of good and evil were clear, and now he's operating in a world where "it's harder to know the good guys from the bad guys". After SHIELD's infiltration and Stark's erratic behavior, it's perfectly understandable that he is wary of everyone.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I find it very cool how Tony's helmet can retract like a hood where it is kept behind the neck when not equipped. It is a lot like Zant's helmet from Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess:

Or like Whiplash's second armor in IM2.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Given time, treatment, and a stable government agency to oversee super-powered people, Bucky might be convinced to turn himself in. But right now he's like an untreated schizophrenic who can't be expected to process the weight of what he's done. All he knows is that he was tortured, taken out of his own time, and turned into a weapon. Based on his appearance and interaction with Cap in Ant-man, neither Cap or Bucky have had much time to make a logical decision on how to proceed. Bucky is confused and scared, so it makes complete sense that he's not willing to trust a time and world that's alien to him.

So basically Bucky gets to pick and choose when he comes in and Steve is somehow qualified to access his mental state and to decide if he should or shouldn't do his job and bring a mass murderer in, and all of this is fine? Steve is acting like a child and a dangerous one, he's leaving an unstable lethal weapon on the loose simply because they are buddies, he could snap at any time and kill someone.

 

[Micromind]

^ It's not just that either, will Steve be equally generous to other criminals, murderers who were "brainwashed" when they committed crimes ? The rule of law has to be non discriminatory and same for everyone.

 

[Mike Murdock]

If he's a victim then he needs to turn himself in. The only people that know that he was brainwashed are Cap, and a bunch of Hydra scientists.

He needs to turn himself in and prove his innocence. Get a lawyer and face due process.

I can only judge by the trailer, but it seemed clear they weren't going to let him turn himself in, they were going to kill him.

 

[The Navigator]

Cap was the guy telling Bucky to turn himself in anyway ("[People] are coming right now, and they're not planning on taking you alive."). This is hostage negotiator tactics--he's going to Bucky unarmed, non-threatening, telling him to stand down and be reasonable.

And why shouldn't Cap trust General "As far as I'm concerned [Bruce Banner's] whole body is the property of the United States Government" Ross? Yeah, how could THAT backfire? Why, if only Hulk had turned himself in, nothing bad would have happened for the rest of the movie! Surely someone Ross has even less affiliation to will be treated equitably, right? Ross doesn't have a history of using supersoldiers like Blonsky for his own means or anything. Assassins (especially ones that have been framed) always make it to a fair, balanced trial. And that piece of legislation the size of a phonebook--nothing sinister could be hidden in that, could it? Especially not with the Russos saying that someone with "a fanatical anti-superhero view" is "outmaneuvering" them. What's the worry?

Obviously the right thing to do here is to turn Bucky over to the ex-Hydra goon Crossbones (seen leading a squad at 0:27), to be led back to the guy who wanted to turn the Hulk serum into his private weapon, follow a questionable document crafted by someone who hates superheroes, and trust that Tony "my parents were killed by Hydra per WS and I'm still reeling from that whole Ultron thing" Stark hasn't made a poor judgment call in a time of emotional vulnerability. Which he clearly doesn't have a history of doing.

Yeah Cap. Such an idiot. Team Iron Man all the way here.

 

[Enriquespy]

I'm on whatever side Scarlet Witch is.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Cap was the guy telling Bucky to turn himself in anyway ("[People] are coming right now, and they're not planning on taking you alive."). This is hostage negotiator tactics--he's going to Bucky unarmed, non-threatening, telling him to stand down and be reasonable.

And why shouldn't Cap trust General "As far as I'm concerned [Bruce Banner's] whole body is the property of the United States Government" Ross? Yeah, how could THAT backfire? Why, if only Hulk had turned himself in, nothing bad would have happened for the rest of the movie! Surely someone Ross has even less affiliation to will be treated equitably, right? Ross doesn't have a history of using supersoldiers like Blonsky for his own means or anything. Assassins (especially ones that have been framed) always make it to a fair, balanced trial. And that piece of legislation the size of a phonebook--nothing sinister could be hidden in that, could it? Especially not with the Russos saying that someone with "a fanatical anti-superhero view" is "outmaneuvering" them. What's the worry?

Obviously the right thing to do here is to turn Bucky over to the ex-Hydra goon Crossbones (seen leading a squad at 0:27), to be led back to the guy who wanted to turn the Hulk serum into his private weapon, follow a questionable document crafted by someone who hates superheroes, and trust that Tony "my parents were killed by Hydra per WS and I'm still reeling from that whole Ultron thing" Stark hasn't made a poor judgment call in a time of emotional vulnerability. Which he clearly doesn't have a history of doing.

Yeah Cap. Such an idiot. Team Iron Man all the way here.

4 paragraphs just to attempt sarcasm? Taking all this into account maybe Steve should put him down then, only way he can be sure no one gets his hands on Bucky and that Bucky hurts no one else. Or he could turn him over to a government outside the US.

 

[The Navigator]

Like the "polizei" in the beginning that aren't planning on taking Bucky alive?

I mean, Banner was arguably less in control of himself than Bucky is (Bucky at least appears lucid and remembers things), and nobody has suggested that he should have turned himself in to Ross.

It's Ross! He can't be trusted!

I'm just glad Tony isn't being portrayed the same way he was in the comics version of this story. Stark's not wrong on the face of it, and I think Cap knows it, but the guy leading this Pro-Reg charge is...questionable at best.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Like the "polizei" in the beginning that aren't planning on taking Bucky alive?

I mean, Banner was arguably less in control of himself than Bucky is (Bucky at least appears lucid and remembers things), and nobody has suggested that he should have turned himself in to Ross.

It's Ross! He can't be trusted!

The big difference is that Banner even as Hulk has not killed anyone, Bucky has murdered 100's of people in cold blood, logically Cap should put him out of his misery and protect the people who trust him as a symbol of leadership.

 

[Enriquespy]

If they took Black Widow in (which wasn't even brainwashed) why shoudn't they let in Bucky?

 

[The Navigator]

Bucky isn't Oliver Queen. And his judge/jury/executioner shouldn't be the guy that wanted to dissect the Hulk like a frog in biology class.

 

[Raiden]

The big difference is that Banner even as Hulk has not killed anyone, Bucky has murdered 100's of people in cold blood, logically Cap should put him out of his misery and protect the people who trust him as a symbol of leadership.

Cap knows that Bucky was brain washed so I don't think Cap is obliged to do that. I think the issue that Cap has in CW is that the authorities are not interested in giving Bucky a due process, but appeared to have used him as a "kill first" target. Cap is seemed as a straight arrow most of the time, but his loyalty to his childhood friend is also strong. I'm not saying that he may be 100% correct, but I like the portrayal of Cap to make him more human and dipped into the gray area in this movie. Evans has said he wanted Cap to become more vulnerable and unsure of himself instead of perfection, and I think this is what we'll be getting in CW.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Bucky isn't Oliver Queen. And his judge/jury/executioner shouldn't be the guy that wanted to dissect the Hulk like a frog in biology class.

No it should be Cap, I have no idea what Oliver Queen has to do with anything.

Cap knows that Bucky was brain washed so I don't think Cap is obliged to do that. I think the issue that Cap has in CW is that the authorities are not interested in giving Bucky a due process, but appeared to have used him as a "kill first" target. Cap is seemed as a straight arrow most of the time, but his loyalty to his childhood friend is also strong. I'm not saying that he may be 100% correct, but I like the portrayal of Cap to make him more human and dipped into the gray area in this movie. Evans has said he wanted Cap to become more vulnerable and unsure of himself instead of perfection, and I think this is what we'll be getting in CW.

Brainwashed or not he was stacking bodies like corn wood, how much rope can you give a person that did that? Cap finding a grey area is one thing but he is allowing an unstable killer to roam free becuase it's his buddy, that's more like a kids way of thinking.

 

[Raiden]

Brainwashed or not he was stacking bodies like corn wood, how much rope can you give a person that did that? Cap finding a grey area is one thing but he is allowing an unstable killer to roam free becuase it's his buddy, that's more like a kids way of thinking.

Cap knows Bucky isn't unstable and is no longer brainwashed and controlled by HYDRA, so he isn't allowing a killer who will murder innocent lives again to roam free. Yes, his loyalty to Bucky made make this decision seemed reckless, but I don't think this decision is putting other people's lives at risk. I don't mind Bucky getting a proper due process by the authorities, but I also don't agree with the apparent "shoot to kill" order they are using in the trailer against Bucky.

 

[The Navigator]

No it should be Cap, I have no idea what Oliver Queen has to do with anything.

I mean Bucky completely dropped off the radar until this frame-job, where's this "Cap's letting an unstable killer just run around killing people" thing coming from? Hell, Bucky's not even attacking anyone in the trailer until he and Cap double-team Iron Man, he's just on the run. If Bucky were randomly murdering people, than I would see where you're coming from, but he isn't. Bucky isn't some rabid dog that needs to be put down, he's a victim that needs to get his life back together and external forces are trying to prevent that.

Bucky needs to face some kind of justice, sure. But the circumstances aren't going to let him get his day in court (with a frame job on the one hand and a "kill on sight" order on the other) and nothing indicates that he can't be reasoned with or he just needs to be mercy-killed.

 

[TalismanRing]

^ It's not just that either, will Steve be equally generous to other criminals, murderers who were "brainwashed" when they committed crimes ? The rule of law has to be non discriminatory and same for everyone.

Scarlet Witch (not even brainwashed), Nat, Clint and (formerly) Hulk are all on the Avengers aren't they? Heck, even Thor wanted to commit genocide before he became humbled and even then he tried to kill Steve in a berserker rage.

Hmmm... maybe Ross is right about the Avengers - they're dangerous.

Then again Ross is the one that created the Abomination as a weapon and wanted to weaponize The Hulk after he finished experimenting on him. And Bucky was held, tortured and used as a weapon by higher ups in SHIELD, someone on the WSC and even a US Senator.

So....