The Issue of Hulk and Civilian Deaths

[Blade X]

That’s not how it’s explained. You don't read the comics. Which is fine.

OK, so ignoring the comics, is it a good idea to have a killing Hulk in the movie? I don't think so. It makes him less sympathetic.

Self-defense? Not at all. That’s silly to even mention. If I killed a toddler that tossed a few stones my way, even if that toddler was (for some strange reason) trying to kill me, that wouldn't be legitimate self-defense.

People say that he's like a wild animal. But if a wild animal kills someone they are put down. If a wild animal killed someone you love you'd still be pretty pissed. He’s not entirely portrayed as wild animal in this film anyway. Some of the same people that have said “He’s a wild animal, he can’t be blamed” have also said “He could have killed the people in the factory easily if he wanted to, he chose not to.” You people can’t have it both ways. If he chose not to kill some people, then he must have chosen TO kill the people that he DID kill. This is if he even kills at all in this movie, which I still don’t know for a fact. “Wild animal” don’t pick and choose who they kill. If they are attacking you, they’re trying to kill you.

But does any of that matter? What really matters is the pathos of the character. I don't think that a killing Hulk takes away much pathos from the Hulk, but it takes a hell of lot away from Banner. And that's the real problem here. If the Hulk kills people, Banner should do SOMETHING about it. If he can't find a cure, he should kill himself - by any means necessary. He can’t trust the military? Have a scientist friend do it. He can’t shoot himself? Sedate himself to death. Nothing short of a nuke can kill him? Find a nuke. Something. Anything. Maybe he doesn’t care about lives he’s taken and thinks that saving loves can make up for it. Maybe, but he’s still a murderer and should be held accountable. Ya know, with a trial and a jury and all that. He’s a wild and uncontrollable beast? That what “Not guilty by reason of insanity” is for. That’s doesn’t mean someone goes completely free.

What if Spider-Man occasionally freaked out and killed people? Say that he occasionally loses his mind and starts tossing cars around…cops show up and try to stop him…he kills them. Well, he was a wild beast, he was defending himself, you mess with the bull and you get the horns. Would Spider-Man be less of a hero in that situation? Well…yeah. Obviously he would.

I see what you some of you people are saying, I really do. He’s uncontrollable, he’s just defending himself, it’s not his fault, it’s to be expected when you mess with a wild beast, etc. But even if I accept all that, which I do to some extent, it still just takes away too much from the character of Banner.

Well said. I agree with everything you said.

I think that there are many comic fans and non comic fans who WRONGLY see the Hulk (specifically the savage dim witted Hulk) as being nothing more then a mindless monster who just goes around indiscriminately smashing things at random for no other reason then that he is angry. People need to realize that the Hulk is NOT Godzilla and just goes around destroying things for no good reason.

 

[Sentinel X]

Who ever thought this?
Im not saying that Hulk just smashes thing up. im saying that its not beyond him to be responsible for a death. He causes damage and if we are thinking realistically there have probably been casualties from his actions . Did he intentionally mean to kill them?...no. And is he a bad guy if he has caused the deaths of civilians?...no.
The Hulk is its own persona. Banner is his own persona. If the Hulk accidently kills someone it is the Hulk and not banner. Banner would never kill a person.
Banner and Hulk are at a constant struggle. Banner does have control over the Hulk but very little. Hulk is portrayed as a wild animal and a part of banner surfaces when Hulk emerges. That is the hero in Hulk, it is banner and not necessarily the Hulk himself.
And as a matter of fact I have read enough comics to get the basic understanding of the charecter...it isn't neuroscience. I don't have to be an avid reader to understand him.

 

[Blade X]

Who ever thought this?
Im not saying that Hulk just smashes thing up. im saying that its not beyond him to be responsible for a death. He causes damage and if we are thinking realistically there have probably been casualties from his actions . Did he intentionally mean to kill them?...no. And is he a bad guy if he has caused the deaths of civilians?...no.
The Hulk is its own persona. Banner is his own persona. If the Hulk accidently kills someone it is the Hulk and not banner. Banner would never kill a person.
Banner and Hulk are at a constant struggle. Banner does have control over the Hulk but very little. Hulk is portrayed as a wild animal and a part of banner surfaces when Hulk emerges. That is the hero in Hulk, it is banner and not necessarily the Hulk himself.
And as a matter of fact I have read enough comics to get the basic understanding of the charecter...it isn't neuroscience. I don't have to be an avid reader to understand him.

If you have indeed read enough comics, then you would be able to suspend disbelief when it comes to superheroes.

If people should die because of one of Hulk's rampages and/or battles, then people should die in ALL superhero battles,Batman (and any other non superpowered hero) should pull his arm out of his socket every time he swings from a roof,heroes who are not invulnerable or have healing powers should always suffer some kind of brain damage every time they are knocked out,and Superman shouldn't be able to hide his true identity behind a pair of glasses.

 

[Doright]

If you have indeed read enough comics, then you would be able to suspend disbelief when it comes to superheroes.

If people should die because of one of Hulk's rampages and/or battles, then people should die in ALL superhero battles,Batman (and any other non superpowered hero) should pull his arm out of his socket every time he swings from a roof,heroes who are not invulnerable or have healing powers should always suffer some kind of brain damage every time they are knocked out,and Superman shouldn't be able to hide his true identity behind a pair of glasses.

I agree. I think enjoying all stories about Superheroes requires this. It's just one of those things.

 

[Dangerous]

If you have indeed read enough comics, then you would be able to suspend disbelief when it comes to superheroes.

If people should die because of one of Hulk's rampages and/or battles, then people should die in ALL superhero battles,Batman (and any other non superpowered hero) should pull his arm out of his socket every time he swings from a roof,heroes who are not invulnerable or have healing powers should always suffer some kind of brain damage every time they are knocked out,and Superman shouldn't be able to hide his true identity behind a pair of glasses.

That's BS.

That's like saying, if we can find one area of valid debate dealing with one Superhero, then we should question the most logical of basic feats that any/all of them perform such as Batman's arm socket not being dislodged whilst swinging from roof to roof constantly. Look at gymnasts who perform on the high bars or rings,- Batman's arms would not become dislocated from the swinging. Not that this is relevant to the topic.

There's a suspension of disbelief we have to embrace when reading SH comics, but that does not mean that don't have their own set of logistics and credibility given to that character/universe, otherwise they would not be worth reading.

So as you saying that if people die in Hulk rampages, they should die in all SH battles is plain wrong. Spider-Man for example, why would civilians die in his battles when he is always conscious of his surroundings and of those around him, and him also being of strong moral fiber. Fact is people would not die all around him with the same consistency as those who are killed during Hulk's rampages. Collateral deaths from the webslingers battles are extremely rare and the reasons for this are his moral integrity and consciousness of endangering the public.

 

[Nivek]

It's not B.S., it's the same point I made on page 1, and why this topic end's up being a big ring of stupid.

 

[Kirmit]

Personally I think other superhero movies just try and sway away from the innocent deaths issue, for example in spider-man 3, the crane scene, all that debris and no one got hurt or killed? I like that TIH won't sway away from it.

 

[Dangerous]

It's not B.S., it's the same point I made on page 1, and why this topic end's up being a big ring of stupid.

His claims were BS.

If you can't counter my points you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[Nivek]

I have two, as do the people backing up my points.

 

[Dangerous]

He said if a certain number of civilians are likely to die in the vicinity of Hulk in combat, then that should be the case with all superhero's whoever thay are and whoever they are fighting. That's crap.

 

[Nivek]

No, that the same point I made from the get go, as have at least 4 other posters. Anytime a fight happens on a street in comic book reality (with , if your saying Hulk would kill people with his destruction, so would Spider-man, Superman, Iron Man, ect. in fights in populated areas with super villians.

 

[Dangerous]

That's only if the super villains were specifically trying to kill civilian's, and most of the time they are not, they are only after the Superhero, who himself is pretty damn good at saving the public.

So like I said, with Hulk and his apparent lack of awareness about these factors, and him being a loose cannon in comparison to the regular capes, plus his penchant for smashing stuff you will see that the situation is quite different with Mr angry.

Concede, you will feel better.

 

[Kirmit]

In big battles, in highly populated areas it's pretty unbelievable that no one would get hurt imo, doesn't matter who the hero is.

 

[Nivek]

In the real world a 1 lb. chunk of flying concrete can kill someone, your putting that type of physical properties into a reality where Wolverine can take a punch from the Hulk and keep flesh on his steel bones. Yeah...

 

[Blade X]

He said if a certain number of civilians are likely to die in the vicinity of Hulk in combat, then that should be the case with all superhero's whoever thay are and whoever they are fighting. That's crap.

That's not BS, that's realistic. Remember, it was you who wanted to interject "realism" into the world of a SUPERHERO comic like the Hulk. If you are going to interject realism into one superhero book, then you are going to have to interject realism into ALL superhero comics.

OMT, (in response to your post responding to my previous post) it's one thing for a gymnast or a circus acrobat to perform acrobatic stunts in a gym or a circus, but it is totally UNREALISTIC for them to jump off a building and stop themselves from falling by shooting/throwing a line/rope or swing from building to building without either (a) tearing their arms out of their sockets or (b) slamming into the side of a building because they misjudged the length of their line/rope.

 

[Shivsguy616]

In the real world a 1 lb. chunk of flying concrete can kill someone, your putting that type of physical properties into a reality where Wolverine can take a punch from the Hulk and keep flesh on his steel bones. Yeah...

...I've never heard of a universe in which Wolverine has steel bones.

 

[Hulkfan2008!]

...I've never heard of a universe in which Wolverine has steel bones.

y'know its the whole adamantium laced bones.................

 

[Nivek]

Oh, I should have said "metal" for all the de-de-de's.

 

[Hulkfan2008!]

lol

 

[Doc Samson]

I'm just not sure where all this "realism" stuff comes from, maybe Batman Begins has something to do with it, but ever since, it seems like alot of things people used to take for granted or, dare I say, a part of "suspended belief" now they want explained? This is a comic book movie about a man who transforms into a green monster, if they didn't want the Hulk to kill anything, it could easily be avoided, just as its been for most of his comic book history.

Listen, that grounded realism stuff works for Batman because his character (give or take) works on that level, especially for a movie. But anybody who walks into a theatre to watch the Hulk and complains that he hasn't killed enough people from collateral damage (or my personal fav) that he doesn't look realistic enough need to just stay home, or better yet, go and try to build a real gamma bomb just to see "what would really happen". EVERYTHING doesnt need to be explained, it is a comic book movie after all. I want things taken seriously, but not that serious....

 

[Hulkfan2008!]

I'm just not sure where all this "realism" stuff comes from, maybe Batman Begins has something to do with it, but ever since, it seems like alot of things people used to take for granted or, dare I say, a part of "suspended belief" now they want explained? This is a comic book movie about a man who transforms into a green monster, if they didn't want the Hulk to kill anything, it could easily be avoided, just as its been for most of his comic book history.

Listen, that grounded realism stuff works for Batman because his character (give or take) works on that level, especially for a movie. But anybody who walks into a theatre to watch the Hulk and complains that he hasn't killed enough people from collateral damage (or my personal fav) that he doesn't look realistic enough need to just stay home, or better yet, go and try to build a real gamma bomb just to see "what would really happen". EVERYTHING doesnt need to be explained, it is a comic book movie after all. I want things taken seriously, but not that serious....

('we are the champions song' plays in the background)

 

[Doc Samson]

('we are the champions song' plays in the background)

LOL!

 

[Sun_Down]

This is the second time I've brought this up, but this thread isn't about whether or not Hulk does/should intentionally murder anyone, but whether the collateral damage caused by such a powerful being can lead to accidental civilian deaths. And no one has offered any insight into that.

 

[Doc Samson]

This is the second time I've brought this up, but this thread isn't about whether or not Hulk does/should intentionally murder anyone, but whether the collateral damage caused by such a powerful being can lead to accidental civilian deaths. And no one has offered any insight into that.

In reality, of course it can. But if the core character of the Hulk has been that he's not a killer, than its up to the discretion of the director to follow that or not. But almost without exception, the Hulk's collateral damage tally has never been examined in most iterations, although it is something General Ross has accused him of time and again. The real point I guess is that if you look at anything concerning the Hulk or any other superhero, than we could pinpont things that should happen. Once again I reference Batman Begins, where Nolan made a conscious decision to tell the story in a grounded realistic fashion, which can work for that character. I've had many wars over there about the new Joker, but in sticking with Nolan's vision, it makes sense to have him wear makeup. On the other hand, if they allow the Hulk to grow to 10 ft without losing his britches, then I think they can allow the issue of his collateral damage to remain irrelevant...

 

[Nivek]

Suspend your disbelief, and focus on the damn story. Reality isn't as important in these kinda stories. The existence of the fantastic, from far off alian lands to furry blue mutants, is actually something that interests me more than some odd OCD-ish attention to unnecessary detail and simplistic real physics.