The Issue of Hulk and Civilian Deaths

[Ultraman Nexus]

If the Hulk kills people, so does Superman, Captain America, Batman, Spider-man, Iron Man, and every major superhero.

This is a fun stupid topic to debate, like Superman having sex with a normal woman and not killing her, or Spider-man pooping web's out of his butt. But seriously, it has no place in any discussion about a fictional Superhero. this is a pure example of people lacking suspension of disbelief and an unwanted demand for realisim in escapist entertainment.

I pretty much agree with you, especially on the over demand for realism in something inherently escapist. It's eating comics alive. Though I think the killing debate has just a tad bit more substance to it than something like Man of Steel Woman of Kleenex.

Because it feeds into what superheroes roles are as people who use their powers to protect human life. Obviously it's less pointed in the case of the Hulk. It's not like Banner sits by a window and thinks "Gamma irradiated mutants are a cowardly lot, my muscles must strike fear into them!" but he IS still a superhero, albiet in his own unique way. But he is one for whom his brain and his brawn are seperated and this causes problems for him that leave him with having to be alone. Which is where you feel for him because even if The Hulk manages to save everyone from certain doom he's still a hunted monster that doesn't understand and Banner doesn't really get to go home to a Daily Planet or BatCave of friends or supporters. ..heh, and cue the Lonely Man theme right here.

A lot of people think all superheroes should go the Wolverine route, just snikt it and forget it. Others (myself included) actually LIKE superheroes as genuinely likable good guys who try to hold themselves to a higher standard.

 

[ArtTeacher]

Great post!!!

 

[November Rain]

I do believe there should be some more grey area superheroes that won't intend to kill but feel sometimes it may be necessary.

I kinda see it like smacking...

some parents do and think it's fine, other don't. As long as you aren't going out to viciously hurt a child instead of using it to instill life lessons to them, then it's fine either way.

it's more about the intent rather than the actual killing themselves.

I think different versions of the hulk should all have different ethos on it. going from pacifist professor to grey area grey hulk to savage kill or be killed savage hulk.

it ultimately depends on what type of hulk story the audience is most comfortable with and what hulk you are trying to sell.

 

[Sarcasm]

I'd be happy if the title of this movie was changed to "The Incredible Hulk: This Big Green Negro Kills Everybody"

 

[Ultraman Nexus]

Great post!!!

Thank you! I appreciate that.

I think different versions of the hulk should all have different ethos on it. going from pacifist professor to grey area grey hulk to savage kill or be killed savage hulk.

it ultimately depends on what type of hulk story the audience is most comfortable with and what hulk you are trying to sell.

I admit I've never been that fond of various flavors of Hulk persona. The Professor to me just defeated the entire concept and made him into a big green Superman with Reed Richards intellect that acted as Peter Davids personal mouthpeice. (I say this as a Superman fan btw.) Not that big on Grey Hulk or stories that play really heavy on the Hulk as Banner's dark evil side thing. I know that's probably blasphemy here in the post Peter David age of Hulk fandom and I also realize what the character was like for a long time when the book started out and there was a feeling of wanting to get back to that.

But I don't think the Hulk was actually the most formed of Stan and Jacks collaborations. I think the move to have the creature be something that is power at the absence of Banners intellect to properly guide it, resulting in a creature that is raging but also has a gentler side that shows in times just before he reverts back was just a better move and helped to make him more unique character. I also just think having the singular Hulk persona works better because it's more straight foward, especially for a general audience.

 

[Dangerous]

Doomsday punches Superman through 3 buildings.

All three buildings just happened to be completely abandoned?

I don't think so.

Oh, and Gwen Stacy died on Spidey's watch.

Did you not read this-

I said- Those guys would never want anyone to be killed in any circumstance they are involved with and will do everything to prevent it.

Point is, in those situations- Superman did not want to get punched through a building, and Spidey tried to save Gwen. The Doomsday fight caused collateral deaths, and Spidey was going for the save.

Many times in comics, the narration will say something like, "Their punches land with enough force to register a 5 on the Richter scale. Miles away windows shatter," etc. So, a level 5 earthquake can kill people...so can that fight, then.

I know this, I said Spidey and Supes would never intentionally kill anyone and do everything to prevent it.

Batman doesn't finish the job with the Joker. So, every person the Joker kills after that is on Batman's head, right?

Batman puts Joker away, incarcerates him as usual.
Job done.

Batman does not kill either.

 

[Hypestyle]

the Hulk does not kill... recently the World war Hulk comics addressed this issue-- hopefully, once and for all--

I feel that Bendis was too reckless in asserting that the Hulk "must have" killed/maimed thousands in his rampages-- bear in mind, that most of them have not happened in urban, highly populated areas, i.e. New York.. I think he would be at a loss to point out even one specific published issue where there was clearly any kind of 'collateral damage'---

 

[deathfromabove]

I do believe there should be some more grey area superheroes that won't intend to kill but feel sometimes it may be necessary.

I kinda see it like smacking...

some parents do and think it's fine, other don't. As long as you aren't going out to viciously hurt a child instead of using it to instill life lessons to them, then it's fine either way.

it's more about the intent rather than the actual killing themselves.

I think different versions of the hulk should all have different ethos on it. going from pacifist professor to grey area grey hulk to savage kill or be killed savage hulk.

it ultimately depends on what type of hulk story the audience is most comfortable with and what hulk you are trying to sell.

that is sligthly disturbing.

there is no reason to "smack" a child unless you are tying to instill that physical violence is a viable solution to life's problems.

 

[Jaspertian1105]

I don't know about comics but in film all these heroes have caused the death of someone. In the first Spiderman the murderer of his uncle is killed because of spidermans fault, in Spiderman 3 he obliterates Eddie Brock with a grenade (well Brock throws himself over the grenade but he dies anyway). Batman in every picture i think he kills someone, even in batman begins he let Ras Al Gul crash inside the train justifying that he doesn't need to save him (something that i don't shear at all, he says it himself when doesn't execute the criminal in the temple saying that showing them mercy and justice is what separates the criminals from them). Even Superman kills, he killed Zod in Superman 2 and in Superman Returns when he lifts the continent, Lex goons got crushed by a gigantic piece of rock. Hulk isn't aware of his action, he is like a baby he doesn't understand the world around him so he reacts, he doesn't think. Only in the Ultimates he is evil (cannibalistic and all that crap) but the real Hulk is not an evil being, he is misunderstood

 

[FrostBite]

If someone walks up to me, when I am doing nothing, and kicks me in the balls, I am not going to take it kindly. I am going to get right back up and smack him square in the jewels.

If a bunch of guys in military outfits that I didn't know (whether they are doing their freaking job or not) bust into my house and try to kill me and somehow I just happened to be John McClain who could magically kill them, I probably would if I had to.

It's called self-defense, it's in nature, it's common sense, and those military commandos are NOT innocent for just "doing their job" they are out to kill a man, whether he be big green a scary. Does this mean they are evil? No. They have the right intentions, but innocent? Hardly.

Everyone is so quick to think in absolutes here ,and while its a hero movie, and you really shouldn't have to apply logic, my mind automatically does saying "Uhm, it's common sense he'd fight back."

Hulk isn't going out and grabbing any soldiers by the neck and strangling them for god's sake. In the released clips where he fights Blonsky in the warehouse he clearly pushes a tank at people. User's like Ave perceive this to be an attempt to kill them, I view it as a "Get the heck away from me" -pushes tank to scare them away-. Does that mean they won't die? No, they might, but too bad. Hulk was confused and reacting.

To solve this matter for anyone who wants to know how this issue plays out:

Spoiler

In the script Bruce tells Betty that the beast has "killed people" so if you like it or not, decide now, and don't go to the theater if it will bug you that much.

But I believe Banner misunderstands the Hulk just as much as everyone else viewing it as a ferocious beast that could kill at any time. Yet interestingly enough in said clips (like against Blonsky) Blonsky is firing at him and yet what does he do? Only peers out for the darkness and gives him a glare like "Back off." Not until a later fight when he realizes Blonsky is far more than a normal human does he start stabbing at him and punting him across fields.

 

[FrostBite]

that is sligthly disturbing.

there is no reason to "smack" a child unless you are tying to instill that physical violence is a viable solution to life's problems.

You want disturbing? My girl's parents have drug her by her hair beating her with a shoe for talking to a boy. Not only that but last year they hit her with a telephone receiver making her bleed from her shoulder.

 

[Sarg92]

Is he more of a direct ‘rampaging’ Hulk?

Hurd: Only in response to a threat from someone or something.

Letterier: Yeah. He Hulks out for some reason.

I see trailers where he's just ripping cars apart.

Letterier: Yeah, but that's in reaction to something and he uses it as a weapon. He's not aggressive. That's also something that we were very conscious of, not to make Hulk a villain that eventually gets a conscience.

Feige: Well, he's not. In that bottle factory sequence, if you notice, he's trying to get away. He's trying to get out and that's what he ends up doing, bashing his way out finally.

May settle some questions.

 

[Wushuboy]

If Hulk kills people in this movie, then it is not the Hulk i know and love, and i wont even watch it possibly.

Now THIS is funny... LOL

 

[Wushuboy]

If someone walks up to me, when I am doing nothing, and kicks me in the balls, I am not going to take it kindly. I am going to get right back up and smack him square in the jewels.

If a bunch of guys in military outfits that I didn't know (whether they are doing their freaking job or not) bust into my house and try to kill me and somehow I just happened to be John McClain who could magically kill them, I probably would if I had to.

It's called self-defense, it's in nature, it's common sense, and those military commandos are NOT innocent for just "doing their job" they are out to kill a man, whether he be big green a scary. Does this mean they are evil? No. They have the right intentions, but innocent? Hardly.

Everyone is so quick to think in absolutes here ,and while its a hero movie, and you really shouldn't have to apply logic, my mind automatically does saying "Uhm, it's common sense he'd fight back."

Hulk isn't going out and grabbing any soldiers by the neck and strangling them for god's sake. In the released clips where he fights Blonsky in the warehouse he clearly pushes a tank at people. User's like Ave perceive this to be an attempt to kill them, I view it as a "Get the heck away from me" -pushes tank to scare them away-. Does that mean they won't die? No, they might, but too bad. Hulk was confused and reacting.

To solve this matter for anyone who wants to know how this issue plays out:

Spoiler

In the script Bruce tells Betty that the beast has "killed people" so if you like it or not, decide now, and don't go to the theater if it will bug you that much.

But I believe Banner misunderstands the Hulk just as much as everyone else viewing it as a ferocious beast that could kill at any time. Yet interestingly enough in said clips (like against Blonsky) Blonsky is firing at him and yet what does he do? Only peers out for the darkness and gives him a glare like "Back off." Not until a later fight when he realizes Blonsky is far more than a normal human does he start stabbing at him and punting him across fields.

Good points made here. I don't know why people think soldiers are so innocent. Must be all the propaganda making people think soldiers are heroes. Sure in a way they are from a certain perspective. But think about the perspective of the people they kill in battle? They kill innocents too. It's all part of war and is bound to happen. Im sure they're not viewed as heroes by the people and families of whom were killed. For some apparent reason some people think hulk should be thinking "oh.. hmmm... im being attacked and shot at.. but puny soldiers are heroes... hulk just walk away"

 

[SpaghettiHULK]

May settle some questions.

Yeah, also because in the fabric there are not "bad guys"... just soldiers, I think it's different... also considering that they are apparently using just bullets and grenades... I mean, c'mon, bullets and grenades against The Hulk, this is in anyway a serious threat for him... at least, not to justify a killer attack to save his life!

 

[terry78]

Yeah, also because in the fabric there are not "bad guys"... just soldiers, I think it's different... also considering that they are apparently using just bullets and grenades... I mean, c'mon, bullets and grenades against The Hulk, this is in anyway a serious threat for him... at least, not to justify a killer attack to save his life!

The Hulk doesn't think about it in that way. Even if what you do doesn't hurt, the fact that you are attacking him means you have a problem with his very existence, which he doesn't like. In many stories the Hulk's thought process is, "they keep thinking I'm a monster when I'm not, so I'll show them a monster."

 

[FrostBite]

Good points made here. I don't know why people think soldiers are so innocent. Must be all the propaganda making people think soldiers are heroes. Sure in a way they are from a certain perspective. But think about the perspective of the people they kill in battle? They kill innocents too. It's all part of war and is bound to happen. Im sure they're not viewed as heroes by the people and families of whom were killed. For some apparent reason some people think hulk should be thinking "oh.. hmmm... im being attacked and shot at.. but puny soldiers are heroes... hulk just walk away"

Exactly, to the American Civilians in the movie, the soldiers ARE heroes, they are fighting a big green menace to save their way of life. But to Hulk?

Pardon the phrase, they are simply puny humans. Puny humans that won't leave him the heck alone (and in the case of the helicopter put Betty in danger.) He isn't going to jump out of his way like in Ang's to save them. (Which honestly felt a little tacked on to me.)

 

[Khemik@L]

If the Hulk kills people, so does Superman, Captain America, Batman, Spider-man, Iron Man, and every major superhero.

This is a fun stupid topic to debate, like Superman having sex with a normal woman and not killing her, or Spider-man pooping web's out of his butt. But seriously, it has no place in any discussion about a fictional Superhero. this is a pure example of people lacking suspension of disbelief and an unwanted demand for realisim in escapist entertainment.

Exactly. We must remember these are all fictional characters people. I mean who really cares if they die or not they are not real people they don't have real families etc they simply don't exist. (But since you guys are so bent on no innocent casualties consider the following)

Since they are fictional people the person creating the story can easily write something that makes them survive. Who knows maybe the guys in the helicopter were just badly burnt but after 5 years of treatment and therapy they survive and go on to leave normal lives. Maybe the guy that got hit with the debris only had a few broken bones and survived just fine. That is the beautiful thing about fiction, it has no limits except those that are set by the creator. What may usually kill a REAL human being in the REAL World may only scratch a FICTIONAL character in a FICTIONAL World.

Free your mind man! You defeat the purpose of fictional stories by trying to put the limits of the real world in it. If you wanna see real people then go watch a documentary or something based on a true story. But you can't watch a comic book film with a realist point of view. The mere fact that SUPERHEROES exist in these worlds shows that Anything can Happen in these worlds.

Sigh! Food for thought t:!

 

[MaskedManJRK]

I don't have much of a problem with Hulk killing, because he's not really a superhero--at the very least, not in the same way Superman is.

He's sort-of like Frankenstein's Creature--a monster that wants to be left alone, but will protect those that it likes and trust to the fullest. Banner may have heroic tendancies and want to use Hulk to do some good, but he's still a guy who's stuck with this other being inside him when he would rather be a normal man again.

Superman, No way never, same for Spidey.
Those guys would never want to anyone to be killed in any circumstance they are involved with and will do everything to prevent it.

Dangerous, the rest of your post I agree with, but...you're kinda wrong with most of the superheroes that you mention.

Superman has killed. He killed the three Kryptonian soldiers that tried to take over (I forget the name of the comic).

Captain America was first a soldier in WWII. He's killed then, and he's killed during the 70s until today. Even in the Brubaker run, both the old and new Caps have been shown using guns to kill bad guys.

Of course, you already mentioned Iron Man, both in the film and in the comics (The Extremis arc comes to mind).

Really, the only ones mentioned that hasn't killed intentionally is Spider-Man and Batman.

 

[Nivek]

What may usually kill a REAL human being in the REAL World may only scratch a FICTIONAL character in a FICTIONAL World.

Last Action Hero rules in action.

 

[Nathan]

Suspension of disbelief can only go so far. If a regular human in a movie is getting hit by a boulder or crashes in a Helicopter that goes off in smoke, he should die. If you play down human injuries to the point it becomes a joke, this turns into a parody movie. Might as well then go watch SUPERHERO MOVIE.

 

[Hoblin]

Exactly, to the American Civilians in the movie, the soldiers ARE heroes, they are fighting a big green menace to save their way of life. But to Hulk?

Pardon the phrase, they are simply puny humans. Puny humans that won't leave him the heck alone (and in the case of the helicopter put Betty in danger.) He isn't going to jump out of his way like in Ang's to save them. (Which honestly felt a little tacked on to me.)

I can kinda see what you mean, but it wasn't tacked on, it was pulled straight from the comics. Hulk doesn't kill people in the comics. Not on purpose, not on accident.

Hulk killing the soldiers (I'm still hoping there's some way they weren't killed) is extremely out of character. That's a fact. It's never happened in 40+ years of comics continuity but it's happening in this movie. Isn't that almost the definition of "out of character"?

If people don't have a problem with it for this movies because they think it's more realistic of morally justified, that's fine. I myself don't have a huge problem with it, just a slight preference for it to go the other way. But don't say that it happens in the comics. It doesn't. If Hulk goes on a rampage and tears up the better part of a city...no one dies. Hulk makes sure of it. If he throws a chunk of debris at a jet to disable it...the pilot lives. Hulk makes sure of it. It might be goofy, but it's comic book canon.

 

[Kirmit]

Suspension of disbelief can only go so far. If a regular human in a movie is getting hit by a boulder or crashes in a Helicopter that goes off in smoke, he should die. If you play down human injuries to the point it becomes a joke, this turns into a parody movie. Might as well then go watch SUPERHERO MOVIE.

Kind of like the tank scene in Ang's hulk, Hulk throws the tank a mile away and the soldier gets out without a scratch, that gave me a WTF moment.

 

[FrostBite]

I can kinda see what you mean, but it wasn't tacked on, it was pulled straight from the comics. Hulk doesn't kill people in the comics. Not on purpose, not on accident.

Didn't say it was tacked on for that reason. Ang could have had him kill no one and been fine. What I meant by tacked on was things like Cracker Jack mentioned, he throws a huge circular disc in the base, everyone just HAPPENS to duck immediately. Or say... the plane scene, it didn't need to be in there, at all.

There are ways to show he's not a killer without having it deliberately thrown in your face. Which is what I meant by tacked on.

 

[Khemik@L]

Suspension of disbelief can only go so far. If a regular human in a movie is getting hit by a boulder or crashes in a Helicopter that goes off in smoke, he should die. If you play down human injuries to the point it becomes a joke, this turns into a parody movie. Might as well then go watch SUPERHERO MOVIE.

All I'm saying is we put too much thought into these movies. Don't get me wrong I personally would like to see Hulk Fight without killing anyone, but we complained saying we want a hulk with more action. More action means more violence, and the more violence we have the more injuries we will have. So what do we really want. More action or less injuries? Maybe both. But is that possible?

Well I think Ang tried that. Having Hulk bring down helicopters without any explosions. But is that possible? Can a 1500 pound creature pull a helicopter from the air to the ground, punch it and still no explosion? Really we have to sacrifice something for something else. Either we want more action more explosion or less injuries less explosions.

Besides we haven't even watch the movie yet. Maybe they will cut to a scene to show the guy who got hit by the boulder crawling around on the ground or something. Who knows.