The Issue of Hulk and Civilian Deaths

That's BS.
That's like saying, if we can find one area of valid debate dealing with one Superhero, then we should question the most logical of basic feats that any/all of them perform such as Batman's arm socket not being dislodged whilst swinging from roof to roof constantly. Look at gymnasts who perform on the high bars or rings,- Batman's arms would not become dislocated from the swinging. Not that this is relevant to the topic.

There's a suspension of disbelief we have to embrace when reading SH comics, but that does not mean that don't have their own set of logistics and credibility given to that character/universe, otherwise they would not be worth reading.

So as you saying that if people die in Hulk rampages, they should die in all SH battles is plain wrong. Spider-Man for example, why would civilians die in his battles when, he is always conscious of his surroundings and of those around him, and him also being of strong moral fiber. Fact is people would not die all around him with the same consistency as those who are killed during Hulk's rampages. Collateral deaths from the webslingers battles are extremely rare and the reasons for this are his moral integrity and consciousness of endangering the public.

And you assume Hulk is not aware. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Hulk is depicted as being very aware of his surroundings and those around him. It's recently been revealed that he's almost hyper-aware on a savant-like level. And this ability that he's always had is the very reason why he never accidentally kills anyone. If no one dies in Spider-Man's or Thor's or whoever's battles, then you can be damn sure that no one dies in Hulk's. You may think it's a silly explanation, but it's in the comics. It's canon. There's nothing you can do about it. Stop telling people to “concede” when you are wrong. It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s fact.

You keep talking about the real world and what would happen in the real world if a giant monster WITHOUT that ability tore up a town. You ARE NOT talking about the Hulk from the comics. YOU are basically talking about Godzilla while people who know the character from the comics are talking about the comic Hulk.

Some people think they know the character because they can spout off "he's a big green guy that gets really mad and smashes everything". They've read a few comics and assume they know the "basics" of the character. They don't. To state the "basics" of this character is to lowball him so drastically that it's almost comical.

Nivek’s right. This thread is getting repetitive and cyclical. Some people know the character and that’s the reason they’re not going to change their minds. And some people don’t know the character and so they somehow had their minds made up before they even entered the thread.
 
OMG! I can't believe there are still people griping and moaning about death in a comic book. You want reality?! reality is our Men and Women in the Armed forces dying in a war right now, while we sit here and argue petty crap. Reality is the thousands of people who die of hunger, sickness and accidents every minutes we breath. That's reality brother, not a comic book that lives in its own world of fantasy. I'm glad people die in this new era of Comics because it is more close to our world than the old GI Joe cartoons. The Great American Hero is fighting for you and me right now in Iraq. Those are the True Superheroes.
 
wait....so how is the Hulk "hyper-aware on an almost savant-like level?"

I've never heard of the Hulk having that type of ability ( then again, I don't read the comics much....lol ).
 
Thats how it was explained in World War Hulk.
 
OMG! I can't believe there are still people griping and moaning about death in a comic book. You want reality?! reality is our Men and Women in the Armed forces dying in a war right now, while we sit here and argue petty crap. Reality is the thousands of people who die of hunger, sickness and accidents every minutes we breath. That's reality brother, not a comic book that lives in its own world of fantasy. I'm glad people die in this new era of Comics because it is more close to our world than the old GI Joe cartoons. The Great American Hero is fighting for you and me right now in Iraq. Those are the True Superheroes.

Reality is also me sitting at work with not much else to do but browse SHH and Wikipedia on the company dime. And some time before midnight I've got to work on some HTML.

Relax man. I don't think anyone here really thinks that what we're talking about is as serious as real death or real soldiers dying. I promise...we know that this isn't reality we're talking about. This is just what we do and what we're into. We're comic book nerds. What you said could be said about any hobby. "I can't believe you're watching football when people are dying all over the world! Put it on CNN!" - "How can you possibly be reading that car magazine with genocide occuring in Burma! Here's a newsweek!"

Escaping from reality is why many of us like those old G.I. Joe cartoons.

Who's excited for the G.I. Joe movie?
 
wait....so how is the Hulk "hyper-aware on an almost savant-like level?"

I've never heard of the Hulk having that type of ability ( then again, I don't read the comics much....lol ).

You'd be suprised of all the crazy crap that Hulk can do besides smashing stuff.

As Nivek said, it was explained during WWH. But it goes further back and explains many of his other abilities.

He can see ghosts when no one else can. He can sense Dr. Strange in his astral form. He's resistant mental attacks.

He has almost supernatural spatial awareness and aim. He can hone in on the location of the original gamma bomb that spawned him. He knows where he's going to land when he jumps 2 miles. He's always been good at fighting super-speed character; being able to punch or grab them regardless of their speed.

And he smashes stuff.
 
Powers and abilities

Strength
The Hulk supporting a mountain/overpowering Onslaught and destroying his armor.
The Hulk supporting a mountain/overpowering Onslaught and destroying his armor.

The Hulk possesses the potential for incredible levels of superhuman strength, growing directly proportional to his emotional state, particularly his anger, spawning the famous quotes: "The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets," and "Hulk is the strongest one there is." His original enraged strength made him a match in combat with beings such as Thor[1] and Hercules.[2]

The Hulk has been shown capable of protecting other prominent Marvel superheroes from the collision of a falling mountain range, claimed to dwarf the Andes, and supporting a part of it on his back, with the assistance of leverage. The cover stated "Beneath one hundred and fifty billion tons stands the Hulk".[3] More impressively, he managed to shift the continental plates of an entire planet to keep it from collapsing.[4] The Hulk has also been shown shattering an asteroid twice the size of Earth with a single punch, with the help of hydraulic catapults launching him into outer space at great speed.[5] On another occasion he lost control of his power to a point where was referred as being about to destroy the entire planet beneath his feet, through the sheer output of force from his body. During that time his merest foot step threatened to sink the entire Eastern Coast of the United States. There are examples of the Leader,[6] and Doc Samson,[7] attempting, unsuccessfully, to measure the limits of The Hulk's strength using the advanced technology at their disposal. Upon probing by the Beyonder, his inner potential for strength was described by the Beyonder as nearly incalculable.[8]

During combat with the psionic entity known as Onslaught, stated to possess power rivaling a Celestial,[9] Jean Grey psionically disables Bruce Banner's persona, to remove all restraints on the Hulk's rage. While trading punches, the Hulk is angered to a point where he is able to overcome Onslaught's strength and destroy his armour.[10] In the officially approved statistics of the "Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game" Hulk was listed as having a calm level strength of 20, but could reach at least 30 when enraged, the same as a Celestial. This can be compared to Thor and Juggernaut being listed at 19, Silver Surfer at 20, Thanos at 22, Destroyer at 24, and Surtur at 28.[11]

The Hulk possesses highly developed leg muscles which enable him to leap several miles at a time, and even longer distances while in an enraged state. He has been shown covering 1000 miles in a single leap,[12] and even jumping into a low-Earth orbit.[13]

Durability
Human Torch's nova-flame + Storm's full power lightning strike/Silver Surfer's blasts
Human Torch's nova-flame + Storm's full power lightning strike/Silver Surfer's blasts

The Hulk is depicted with extremely high levels of superhuman stamina and resistance to physical injury. His muscles are resistant to fatigue poisons, which allows him to function at peak performance for extremely long periods without tiring. He's been shown enduring the impact of high-caliber artillery shells, falls from orbital heights, or extremely powerful energy blasts without sustaining injury, and resisting poisons and diseases with no ill effect. The Hulk has been shown capable of withstanding a ground zero nuclear explosion,[14] as well as the 1,000,000-degree Fahrenheit "nova-burst" of the Human Torch, in one case combined with a full-power lightning strike by Storm.[15]

At the end of the "Planet Hulk" storyline, he withstands the blast effect of a "warp core breach", which generated enough force to destabilise the fictional planet Sakaar near the point of collapse,[16] and following this, Black Bolt's voice, which generated enough power to knock off a piece of the moon the size of Rhode Island.[17] He has also displayed sufficient durability to survive immersion in magma and the immense temperatures and pressure of a planetary mantle for extended periods.[18]

Other examples include withstanding energy blasts from the Silver Surfer,[19] Thor,[20] a vastly powered-up gigantic Thanos clone,[21] the High Evolutionary,[22] the Sentry,[23] or Galactus (when not fully nourished),[24] and a blast from Exodus was incapable of causing any discomfort.[25]

Even his eyeballs have been demonstrated as completely resistant to portable machine gun fire,[26] and his skin resisted being pierced by a "Dog O' War" stated as capable of crushing adamantium in 7.3 seconds.[27] As noted previously, the Hulk received no damage from a head-on collision powerful enough to shatter an asteroid twice the size of the Earth.[5]

Healing factor
The Hulk's healing factor
The Hulk's healing factor

Despite his body's high resistance to damage, it is possible to injure the Hulk. He has been hurt numerous times by opponents wielding weapons composed of adamantium.[28] However, he can regenerate damaged or destroyed tissue with far greater efficiency than an ordinary human. He has proven capable of regenerating his eyes, skin, and most of his muscle tissue, within moments of having it flayed from his body by Vector.[29] His future "Maestro" incarnation proved capable of eventually reconstructing himself after being blown to powder.[30]

He has displayed great resistance to unwilling transformation of his physical form. For instance, he was immune to direct genetic manipulation from the High Evolutionary.[22] Additionally he fought off the effects of being shrunk by Goom,[31] was quickly restored to normal by his healing factor after he was turned to stone by the Grey Gargoyle, [32] and he immediately tore free, completely unscathed, after having his limbs phased into solid concrete.[33]

As another possible effect, he has been shown as functionally immortal by human standards in terms of long lifespan.[34]

It has been stated that The Hulk's durability, stamina and the efficiency of his healing powers all fluctuate with his emotional state, much like his physical strength.[35]

Speed and reflexes

Marvel Comics executive editor Tom Brevoort officially listed the Hulk as possessing super speed comparable with Thor or Spider-Man.[36] The Hulk has sufficiently fast reflexes and reaction time to match the Sentry in physical combat.[37]

Resistance to psionics

The Hulk has also demonstrated great resistance from psychic control such as assaults from Xemnu the Titan,[38] Cable,[39], Professor Phobos,[40] and Professor Xavier.[41]

In his earliest days, he proved vulnerable to the pre-Phoenix Jean Grey.[42]

Miscellaneous

* In addition to these powers, the Hulk demonstrated the ability to "home in" on the desert base where he was empowered.[43] He also has the ability to see and hear spectres, such as the astral form of Doctor Strange.[44]

* His powers have been shown and stated to increase after absorbing large amounts of radiation up to ground zero nuclear attacks.[45]

* As a result of the Planet Hulk storyline, the Hulk has been written with combat skills and experience as a military strategist and leader. Also, he wears armor and utilizes mêlée weapons. For instance, he was able to eliminate the Juggernaut from his battle with the X-Men by using the latter's own momentum against him, accelerating him to a point where he could not stop himself.[46]

Irregular abilities

* The Hulk has displayed limited reactive evolution, as he's developed a gland that enables him to breathe underwater,[47] and stated that he would adapt to the vacuum of space,[48] which he later did, spending prolonged periods without needing to breathe.[49]

* He once used a ‘homing sense’ to locate Onslaught while burrowing underground.[50]

* He has been stated to possess an undefined mystical connection, enabling him to work as an inter-dimensional nexus of reality,[51] and has acted as a sponge for dark magic, being immune to or empowered by its effects.[52]

* He has also been able to reflect the gamma ray blasts of the Galaxy Master back to the source.[53]

* Occasionally, the Hulk has performed features not possible through real life physical force, even by comic-book 'logic', such as keeping apart matter and anti-matter spheres,[54] changing direction in mid-jump, or punching his way through a time-storm.[55]

Shown higher extents of power
Pushing a 10x stronger than normal Thor to the ground with a single arm
Pushing a 10x stronger than normal Thor to the ground with a single arm

* Ripping the gigantic "Flame of Life", created to withstand and fight the Celestials, in half by pure physical strength.[56]

* Overcoming the strength, and breaking the armour of Onslaught, stated to possess power rivaling a Celestial,[57] during combat after Jean Grey psionically disabled Bruce Banner's persona, to remove all restraints on the Hulk's rage.[58]

* Pushing a 10x stronger than normal,[59] "warrior's madness" Thor towards the ground with a single arm.[20]

* Destroying a pocket universe, by clapping his hands to create a shock wave that reflected the Dark-Crawler's blasts.[60]

* Sending concussive shockwaves, causing cataclysmic upheavals throughout a great number of multiversal planets, by the impact of his punches when within the 'Crossroads' nexus.[61]

* Forcing the Sentry to fight using his entire power, and defeating him after a prolonged battle, in which both were reverted to their human forms for the final 2 seconds.[23]

* Defeating Doctor Strange when the latter was merged with the essence and power of an expended Zom.[62]

Breaking Doctor Strange's Crimson Bands of Cyttorak
Breaking Doctor Strange's Crimson Bands of Cyttorak

* Shattering Doctor Strange's otherwise indestructible Crimson Bands of Cyttorak.[63]

* Breaking free of a power-leeching machine that held Silver Surfer, Sub-Mariner, and Doctor Strange combined.[64]

* Destroying a force field created by the Stranger, which contained enough energy to change a planet's orbit [65]

* Pulling the continental plates of the planet Sakaar together, while enduring the lack of air and immense heat and pressure of the planetary mantle.[66]

* Denting or cracking true adamantium through physical force.[67]

* Demolishing the armour of, and defeating, the High Evolutionary.[68]

* Overloading the Absorbing Man.[69]

* Stopping the Juggernaut when Hulk had higher base strength, due to nexus-energies from Franklin Richards' pocket universe, but had lost his rage-factor. Likely given help from the technology provided by Apocalypse.[70] In a later deadlock, he seemingly either repeated the feat without help, or severely impeded the Juggernaut's movement.[71]

* Beating the Silver Surfer unconscious with 3 blows.[72]

* Breaking through the Silver Surfer's force field.[73]

* Reflecting Gladiator's eye-beams, stated to burn hotter than the heart of stars,[74] back into the latter's eyes by covering them with his hand, and beating him bloody and unconscious.[75]

The Hulk breaking Superman's grip and throwing him into outer space
The Hulk breaking Superman's grip and throwing him into outer space

* Breaking Superman's grip, and throwing him into outer space.[76]

* Breaking X-Man's telekinetic field.[21]

* Nearly defeating two Avengers teams that included Namor, She Hulk, Hercules, Wonder Man and Iron Man, despite being greatly weakened due to separation from Bruce Banner.[77]

* Defeating the Fantastic Four and Storm single-handedly, including smashing Invisible Woman's force field.[78]

* Closing vault doors to a nuclear core that Thor and Thing together couldn't budge.[79]

* Fighting evenly against Thor and Thing at the same time.[80]

* Destroying the Crypto Man with three punches after the robot had been boosted with strength greater than Thor's.[81]

* Throwing the 20-ton dragon Fin Fang Foom to the moon.[82]

* Effortlessly stopping a strike from Red Norvell's equal copy of Mjolnir with one hand.[83]

* Lifting and moving the Blob.[84]

* Shattering a force field, which had othervise only been pierced by the sonic screams of Black Bolt.[85]

* Destroying a military installation designed to withstand an explosive force of "several thousand megatons", in one punch.[86]

* Destroying a ship with a single blow that Thor, Iron Man and the Human Torch only dented.[87]

* Defeating nearly the entire X-Men roster single-handedly, including easily breaking both of Colossus' arms, and overloading Strong Guy with one strike.[88][89]

Lower-end power occasions

Beyond being a creation that per definition varies greatly in power, as in the case with other Marvel Comics powerhouses like Juggernaut burned by a chandelier,[90] Firelord being physically beaten by Spider-Man,[91] Silver Surfer unable to break the grip of Black Panther,[92] or Thor being wounded by Mongoose and rendered unconscious by a shot to the head from a conventional handgun,[93] comicbook characters are sometimes displayed at wildly differing levels to fit story conveniences (or the interpretation/unfamiliarity of the writer in regards to the character) and greatly shifting personal bias. Hulk has overall been shown to grow vastly more powerful from his origins in the 60's, but even in recent years has occasionally been displayed at seemingly mindboggling lows.

* Passing out from asphyxiation due to being strangled less than a minute by an ordinary python.[94]

* Spider-Man reminiscing about Captain America withstanding the Hulk's blows and knocking him out.[95]

* Injured by a Wolverine restricted to bone claws, and a pygmy Wendigo.[96]

* Hurt by Deadpool's regular steel swords and impaled by a lamppost.[97]

* Several Spanish citizens transformed by Diablo based on the Hulk's appearance, leisurely beaten by a 25-feet tall Giant-Man.[98]

* Knocked unconscious by Spider-Man throwing a truck at him, as relayed by an audience of drunks.[99]

* Knocked unconscious by Thor's lightning.[100]

* Knocked unconscious by a surprise attack from Iron Man emptying his armour's entire power-storage into one blow, after the Hulk had turned dizzy from a small-scale U.S. Army attack.[101]

* Drained and badly damaged by Havok by using his own power against him.[
 
Let's face it, people will die in this film accidentally by Hulk not meaning to do something, but doing it out of a primal, reaction to a perceived threat. This would for the most part explain why Bruce Banner wants to find a cure. It makes the pathos of Banner's duality that much more authentic. The only character I can see intentionally using his power to cause massive civilian deaths would be Abomination.

I agree with this. The notion that Hulk has never killed has always seemed counter to the very essence of the Hulk. He is primal rage. He is anger unfettered. Once he's pulling punches and aware enough of his actions to ensure no one is harmed by his rampage...well, he becomes something else.

Hulk needs to have a dangerous aspect to him, a deadly side, a hint of menace. (Something more than property destruction.) Without that, Banner's conflict becomes severely hamstrung.
 
Why is it such a big concern? We already know what is going to happen. The Hulk will kill in self-defense. It doesn't matter who is "right" or "wrong." The thing that matters is it's the Hulk vs. the US Army. The U.S. Army are trying to either capture or kill the Hulk. Hulk will either wound or kill soldiers in self-defense. In terms of civilians, Hulk is not going to just destroy some building with people in it for no reason. Hell, I bet Optimus Prime and Megatron flying threw a building killed at least one person.
 
Point blank, audiences don't view killing as that bad if it's done via self-defense. Yes, humans with guns and cannons can't really harm him, but he views it as them ATTEMPTING to harm him, and constantly hounding him. Now a bee sting can't really kill me, but if bees are following me everyday, stinging the **** out of me, then yes, I will start to feel resentment.
 
And you assume Hulk is not aware. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Hulk is depicted as being very aware of his surroundings and those around him. It's recently been revealed that he's almost hyper-aware on a savant-like level.

I never said Hulk was not aware, but I was alluding to how when savage Hulk is in a blind rage or just losses it, he is less aware of his surroundings just as any of us are when we see red. If you can point to any evidence to suggest Hulk is as clear of mind when in a ballistic rage compared to when he is sitting down with Betty then hey,- show me.

And this ability that he's always had is the very reason why he never accidentally kills anyone.

What about Startling Stories: Banner, it was revealed Hulk had killed thousands of innocents over the years, I dunno if that story was cannon or not. What about Hulk Vol2 1998, I think in the first 10 issues Hulk was going around leveling towns wiping people out. I think he was being controlled then, but it does suggest that if Hulk has in fact never killed anyone by accident in 616 Hulk comics then that is pretty damn unrealistic when we are talking about a creature who causes destruction on such a high scale and possesses such a huge power and likes to get pissed and go round smashing.

Well as I am sure you know, Hulk does kill in self defense in this film. And beyond all of this you are talking about the Hulk of 616 comics, and here we are talking about the new film, which is something totally different. The possibility that Hulk could cause civilian death in the new film is valid.
 
ROFLOL...this a COMIC BOOK MOVIE...YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A GAMMMA RADIATED MONSTER OF A MAN...IT'S NOT REAL...NO ONE WAS REALLY KILLED OR INJURED!

Btw, Iron Man killed alot of people in that movie...blowing up the base and the weapons, and Batman killed alot of people as well...it's not real...it's a movie...okay.

Don´t you know that it is ok to kill people as long as they are "bad guys" or at least not americans
 
And you assume Hulk is not aware. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Hulk is depicted as being very aware of his surroundings and those around him. It's recently been revealed that he's almost hyper-aware on a savant-like level. And this ability that he's always had is the very reason why he never accidentally kills anyone. If no one dies in Spider-Man's or Thor's or whoever's battles, then you can be damn sure that no one dies in Hulk's. You may think it's a silly explanation, but it's in the comics. It's canon. There's nothing you can do about it. Stop telling people to “concede” when you are wrong. It’s not a matter of opinion. It’s fact.

You keep talking about the real world and what would happen in the real world if a giant monster WITHOUT that ability tore up a town. You ARE NOT talking about the Hulk from the comics. YOU are basically talking about Godzilla while people who know the character from the comics are talking about the comic Hulk.

Some people think they know the character because they can spout off "he's a big green guy that gets really mad and smashes everything". They've read a few comics and assume they know the "basics" of the character. They don't. To state the "basics" of this character is to lowball him so drastically that it's almost comical.

Nivek’s right. This thread is getting repetitive and cyclical. Some people know the character and that’s the reason they’re not going to change their minds. And some people don’t know the character and so they somehow had their minds made up before they even entered the thread.

:up: :up: :up: Great post, and i 100% agree.
 
I agree with this. The notion that Hulk has never killed has always seemed counter to the very essence of the Hulk. He is primal rage. He is anger unfettered. Once he's pulling punches and aware enough of his actions to ensure no one is harmed by his rampage...well, he becomes something else.
Hulk needs to have a dangerous aspect to him, a deadly side, a hint of menace. (Something more than property destruction.) Without that, Banner's conflict becomes severely hamstrung.

There is a BIG moral difference between getting angry and being a murderer.
 
so it turns out

HUlk has killed innocents

I find this makes him and banner really hard to relate to as heroes and victims responsibly, especially added by how banner
doesn't get rid of him or even go back for the cure
in the end.
 
Ross said he killed, it was never confirmed otherwise. Ross was quite the manipulator in this film. Same goes with the guys in the plant, they we're probably so messed up they wished they we're dead, but it's not like we seen Hulk crush their heads.
 
Ah dude we have no reason to believe he lied, he never lied at any other point in the film.
 
Him manipulating people left and right (including his officers, superiors, and daughter) doesn't count as lying? What the hell, thats like a main point of Ross in the film, he's a a'hole.
 
Hulk does not kill innocents. Period. I haven't seen the movie yet, but that is really disappointing. And for anyone who cares, it was explained that its Banner's genius (in Hulk's sub-conscious) that prevents the deaths of innocents on a rampage.

I'm just gonna ignore that he kills in his movie.
 
What I find funny is, as it turns out, Iron Man killed more people in his movie than the Hulk did in this one. In fact, unlike Iron Man who was taking out people left and right in his film, we don't actually SEE Hulk killing anyone in this one, it's only referenced in passing, and we have no idea what happened in that situation so we don't know if it's true or not.
 
I confess it does kind of take away if they were just innocent bystanders, as Hulk's fury should only be directed towards those that seriously attempted to do something to him. Now if it's just indirectly, that can be kind of overlooked, as superheroes in comics often have collateral damage and when someone gets killed because of it, not because they purposely did it, they do feel remorse.
 
When Hulk's flinging tanks at those that do him harm, it's kinda hard not to imagine some hapless citizens would be caught in between.

He doesn't mean to kill them, it just happens. If it was anything but that, it wouldn't be the Hulk.
 
This really isn't about how it affects the hulk, it should be how it affects banner.

Banner doesn't take responsibility to the fact that he habours something that kills people and would rather be on the run.

Now if he doesn't want to be found by the U.S. that is one thing but he could still get sent to another jail as an average joe in the middle of no where. There is no sense of wishing attonement or remorse.

I mean the last time effectively bruce saw betty, the hulk had knocked her and her father out but none of that came across in the film.
 

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