The Issue of Hulk and Civilian Deaths

[November Rain]

What I find funny is, as it turns out, Iron Man killed more people in his movie than the Hulk did in this one. In fact, unlike Iron Man who was taking out people left and right in his film, we don't actually SEE Hulk killing anyone in this one, it's only referenced in passing, and we have no idea what happened in that situation so we don't know if it's true or not.

The thread is about civilian deaths, the hulk apparently has killed multiple civilians at different points during banner's time on the run.

iron man didn't kill civilians.

I also don't understand why people have any reason to doubt that he had. Especially since Ross had never been shown to be a liar throughout the film. If you decide not to take it onboard, that's just being in denial.

 

[Nivek]

Okay, did you see the same movie the rest of us did? Bruce kept having nightmares of what he did to Betty, and his other acts of violence as the Hulk.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

NR, I thought you lived in Holland....Is the movie already out there?

 

[November Rain]

NR, I thought you lived in Holland....Is the movie already out there?

I'm in the uk, sheffield to be precise

 

[November Rain]

Okay, did you see the same movie the rest of us did? Bruce kept having nightmares of what he did to Betty, and his other acts of violence as the Hulk.

Yeah and how was he ultimately affected by these thoughts?

Betty asks him if he remembers anything and he says it's like being on acid or something along those lines.

However at no point during the movie does he think OMG, what did the hulk do, did he hurt anyone, did anyone die and you don't have banner dealing with the consequences of it.

It's almost as if he hates the hulk but isn't willing to take any form of responsiblility for the hulk's actions and would rather just get rid of it solely because he doesn't want the military to have it.

 

[Badfish40oz]

Who's denying he's killed in the movie? We're just pissed because thats not the real Hulk. Hulk doesn't kill innocents. Like Superman doesn't kill innocents.

I'm honestly really disappointed that they went there.

LL might go the evil/cannibal Hulk route after all.

 

[FrostBite]

It's almost as if he hates the hulk but isn't willing to take any form of responsiblility for the hulk's actions and would rather just get rid of it solely because he doesn't want the military to have it.

You know, I did just write this beautiful 3 paragraph post to fight and tell you all the reasons you are wrong, sadly, I knew it would end up in you going "No YOU'RE wrong." (Just how these forums work I guess.) And it's far to early in the morning for that.

All I can say is I felt for him the entire movie, people in the theater felt for him as I could tell from the reactions of people close to me.

And so, I close with, sorry you didn't enjoy it.

Personally, I am no purist, and I love re-tellings, and it didn't zap away my sympathy for Banner in the least, it was almost like a werewolf curse slapped on him because a few government officials (i.e. Ross) lied to him about what he "thought he was working on."

 

[FrostBite]

LL might go the evil/cannibal Hulk route after all.

And after enjoying his movie so much, I'd say if anyone could bring Hulk to his "Ultimate" side and still keep it a good movie, it'd have to be LL.

 

[November Rain]

You know, I did just write this beautiful 3 paragraph post to fight and tell you all the reasons you are wrong, sadly, I knew it would end up in you going "No YOU'RE wrong." (Just how these forums work I guess.) And it's far to early in the morning for that.

All I can say is I felt for him the entire movie, people in the theater felt for him as I could tell from the reactions of people close to me.

And so, I close with, sorry you didn't enjoy it.

Personally, I am no purist, and I love re-tellings, and it didn't zap away my sympathy for Banner in the least, it was almost like a werewolf curse slapped on him because a few government officials (i.e. Ross) lied to him about what he "thought he was working on."

Meh, bring on the paragraph, we're all adults here....I'm happy to defend my corner I feel it's legit.

no matter how you look at it, banner is a fugitive wanted for murder and as a responsible adult, he's willing to keep on the run rather than atone for his crimes.

HIs reaction to civilian death is never brought up and he seems unphased by the idea.

You may cut the rest the way you like but it comes down to banner has let the hulk take innocent lives and is not responsible enough to hand himself in for it.

now if he had and the hulk had busted them out of jail,that's a different story altogether. This is similar to the suicide scene, if they had kept that in and made it relevant to the human death aspect as well as his long term dispair to get rid of it, then fine but its ejection leaves banner in moral limbo.

 

[FrostBite]

Meh, bring on the paragraph, we're all adults here....I'm happy to defend my corner I feel it's legit.

no matter how you look at it, banner is a fugitive wanted for murder and as a responsible adult, he's willing to keep on the run rather than atone for his crimes.

HIs reaction to civilian death is never brought up and he seems unphased by the idea.

You may cut the rest the way you like but it comes down to banner has let the hulk take innocent lives and is not responsible enough to hand himself in for it.

now if he had and the hulk had busted them out of jail,that's a different story altogether. This is similar to the suicide scene, if they had kept that in and made it relevant to the human death aspect as well as his long term dispair to get rid of it, then fine but its ejection leaves banner in moral limbo.

Were you watching the same film? The one where Ross explains this happened to him unknowingly? The one where Ross states to him as the wheel him out strapped down "If you take this from me, I'll put you in a hole for the rest of your life"? The same film where Ross says "As far as I am concerned his whole body is property of the U.S. Government"?, where Ross also relishes in his first transformation because he sees the potential for a Bio-weapon saying "It was a terrible accident, or maybe it was a very good one"?


But no... really... it's irresponsible not to hand yourself over to a corrupt system so they can use it to kill others in other countries rather than you try and find a cure so absolutely no one can get hurt from this beast again.

Really, how dare he.

 

[November Rain]

Alright before we continue, can i make it clear I was watching the same film. This is the third time it's been asked.

 

[November Rain]

Frostbite, he killed Innocent people, as soon as you cross that line you no longer have the right to have any sort of moral code.

sorry.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

Frostbite, he killed Innocent people, as soon as you cross that line you no longer have the right to have any sort of moral code.

sorry.

Even if Bruce was not fully in control of the beast within? I think this adds more of a layer to Bruce's tormented psyche, that he couldn't control this living embodiment of anger with him. Like I said in another thread, you just can't get any enjoyment out of anything can you?

 

[FrostBite]

Frostbite, he killed Innocent people, as soon as you cross that line you no longer have the right to have any sort of moral code.

sorry.

Lol, sorry, but thank God Bruce didn't have your moral cut and dryness. Or else they'd have an army of gamma thugs everywhere that would inevitably be uncontrollable (i.e. Blonsky) and that Bruce would have to end up beating the living crap out of. Bruce isn't in control, it is essentially mindless Hulk mixed with a bit of the savage in this film. Bruce doesn't even know what he is doing, and therefor he deserves redemption.

Things are rarely so black and white in real life. I pity those who interact with you if you are so incapable of understanding a mans plight, especially one who is not even in control of his actions.

To get a little bit nerdy with the subject: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Oh yeah, I went there, I went there with bells on.

 

[November Rain]

Even if Bruce was not fully in control of the beast within? I think this adds more of a layer to Bruce's tormented psyche, that he couldn't control this living embodiment of anger with him. Like I said in another thread, you just can't get any enjoyment out of anything can you?

It would add more torment which is fine (check earlier posts of mine in this thread from before watching the film) BUT bruce doesn't even acknowledge it. Or could you show me a point where bruce went 'All the people i've killed/hulk's killed I'm responsible for, I feel bad for, I'm ashamed and need to repent, get rid of it'.

Not a sausage.

as for enjoyment, I'm enjoying this. I find the prehype and post film analysis are actually more enjoyable than the majority of films. The films themselves rather just provide reference points to back up debate issues.

Blame this place.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

It would add more torment which is fine (check earlier posts of mine in this thread from before watching the film) BUT bruce doesn't even acknowledge it. Or could you show me a point where bruce went 'All the people i've killed/hulk's killed I'm responsible for, I feel bad for, I'm ashamed and need to repent, get rid of it'.

Not a sausage.

as for enjoyment, I'm enjoying this. I find the prehype and post film analysis are actually more enjoyable than the majority of films. The films themselves rather just provide reference points to back up debate issues.

Blame this place.

What does sausage have to do with anything?

 

[FrostBite]

It would add more torment which is fine (check earlier posts of mine in this thread from before watching the film) BUT bruce doesn't even acknowledge it. Or could you show me a point where bruce went 'All the people i've killed/hulk's killed I'm responsible for, I feel bad for, I'm ashamed and need to repent, get rid of it'.

Not a sausage.

as for enjoyment, I'm enjoying this. I find the prehype and post film analysis are actually more enjoyable than the majority of films. The films themselves rather just provide reference points to back up debate issues.

Blame this place.

Maybe it didn't have to be spelled out for us? Maybe it was inferred that he cared about all of those people when he tried desperately not to Hulk out in several encounters? Maybe it is inferred when he is looking for a cure? Risking his life to demolish a weapon that could potentially harm people?

If he sat around and sulked, he'd get nothing done, he's on the move and he's looking for a cure to stop his suffering and the suffering of others. To stop the mindless violence.

Heck, when he found out Sterns

Spoiler

had "test subjects" he was infuriated, why? Because he brought more of this curse into the world.

It's not like Bruce is trigger happy and loving the Hulk, just because is mind is on an acid trip and he cannot remember doesn't mean he relishes being on the run and feels no remorse for the loss of others.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

If he sat around and sulked, he'd get nothing done, he's on the move and he's looking for a cure to stop his suffering and the suffering of others. To stop the mindless violence.

Ang Lee's Bruce Banner did enough of that in the 2003 movie.

 

[November Rain]

Lol, sorry, but thank God Bruce didn't have your moral cut and dryness. Or else they'd have an army of gamma thugs everywhere that would inevitably be uncontrollable (i.e. Blonsky) and that Bruce would have to end up beating the living crap out of. Bruce isn't in control, it is essentially mindless Hulk mixed with a bit of the savage in this film. Bruce doesn't even know what he is doing, and therefor he deserves redemption.

Things are rarely so black and white in real life. I pity those who interact with you if you are so incapable of understanding a mans plight, especially one who is not even in control of his actions.

To get a little bit nerdy with the subject: Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Oh yeah, I went there, I went there with bells on.

Alright, here you mention things being black and white yet you happily sit on bruces black side that the army are evil and will use it for their evil schemes IF he turns himself in?

As for whether he is in control or not, he is ultimately the one held responsible for the actions of the hulk in the same way a parent is held responsible for the actions of their child up to a certain age. I would like to think if i found out my kid had killed someone, I'd put them away since they have to responsible. If my siamese brother killed, I'd walk us both to jail and do the time with him because that's the responsible thing to do.

What bruce banner has done is fabricated to some extent a half truth to justify him not being responsible in the same way stern's work with his blood wasn't a bad thing and could lead to some real cool science but bruce saw it again as a bad thing.

I don't think 'because the army are bad and don't know what they are doing' is a good enough reason. The military aren't that black and white and considering he's never had a chance to properly study himself before he turned or know the extent of how the gamma dosage affected him (not to mention they didn't establish the psychological aspects of the hulk being a multiple persona but never mind), then he's affectively a walking timebomb.

At this moment he has no reason to not trust the military, if they had a scene explaining he handled himself in before and they were attempting some crazy crap then fair enough but they didn't.

 

[FrostBite]

Ang Lee's Bruce Banner did enough of that in the 2003 movie.

He also relished in the power unlike this Banner. (I was thinking both things after I wrote them actually.)

But alas, I must take leave. I have a busy day ahead of me, perhaps this merry-go-round of "we'll never convince each other," can continue at a later date.

 

[November Rain]

What does sausage have to do with anything?

Brit slang, carry on...

 

[Badfish40oz]

See, even this arguing alone proves that they should have left this out of the movie. To come out and tell us the Hulk has killed . .

Ugh. REALLY disappointing.

Even WWH Hulk couldn't kill anyone, and thats the MADDEST he's ever been.

F-ing Ultimate universe. More trouble its brought than good.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

Brit slang, carry on...

Regardless it's making me hungry.

Anyways, regarding the topic in general, it's highly unrealistic that Hulk would never inadvertently cause injurious harm and death to innocent bystanders when in a mad rage. It's like saying that tornadoes and other deadly forces of nature just ravage only people who are evil.

 

[FrostBite]

Alright, here you mention things being black and white yet you happily sit on bruces black side that the army are evil and will use it for their evil schemes IF he turns himself in?

As for whether he is in control or not, he is ultimately the one held responsible for the actions of the hulk in the same way a parent is held responsible for the actions of their child up to a certain age. I would like to think if i found out my kid had killed someone, I'd put them away since they have to responsible. If my siamese brother killed, I'd walk us both to jail and do the time with him because that's the responsible thing to do.

What bruce banner has done is fabricated to some extent a half truth to justify him not being responsible in the same way stern's work with his blood wasn't a bad thing and could lead to some real cool science but bruce saw it again as a bad thing.

I don't think 'because the army are bad and don't know what they are doing' is a good enough reason. The military aren't that black and white and considering he's never had a chance to properly study himself before he turned or know the extent of how the gamma dosage affected him (not to mention they didn't establish the psychological aspects of the hulk being a multiple persona but never mind), then he's affectively a walking timebomb.

At this moment he has no reason to not trust the military, if they had a scene explaining he handled himself in before and they were attempting some crazy crap then fair enough but they didn't.

Oh man oh man, I couldn't help but respond again. I see that in Black and White, because ROSS TELLS US POINT BLANK "I want it." Funny enough, I didn't see Ross as a bad guy, but a power hungry man. He saw the error of his ways later.

Your second point makes no sense, a parent isn't imprisoned if their child murders someone. Sure people give the parent angry stares, but they aren't the ones punished. (I.e. Bruce shouldn't be punished.) Yeah the kid would be locked away, which goes right back to the Hulk being cured, it's the Hulk being banished from manifesting.

Not likely from what I saw.

What didn't you get from Ross saying multiple times "We want it, we don't care about you, we just want the power." Over and over and over. Sure his motivations are not cut and dry but that is what he wants (up until the end) pure and simple.

Again, you are right, he has no reason to not trust them, except the fact Thunderbolt has made it abundantly clear to him many times that he wants him as a weapon.

Really I hate to sound like a dick, but I just cannot understand where you come from in the slightest.

The only thing that made any sense to me here was the Siamese twin example, except for you know, your Siamese twin isn't a miracle of science that the military has point blank told you they want to use to kill people on several occasions.

 

[November Rain]

Maybe it didn't have to be spelled out for us? Maybe it was inferred that he cared about all of those people when he tried desperately not to Hulk out in several encounters? Maybe it is inferred when he is looking for a cure? Risking his life to demolish a weapon that could potentially harm people?

Banner's main reason I felt for getting rid of the hulk was because of what the army could do with it. That seemed like his main catalyst and he'd stop being on the run once he had gotten rid of it, otherwise he has no reason to be on the run, he could work from the states.

If he sat around and sulked, he'd get nothing done, he's on the move and he's looking for a cure to stop his suffering and the suffering of others. To stop the mindless violence.

Again, you are painting black and white boxes of what would happen if it didn't go the way it did.

All I needed was an acknoledgement of how the deaths of innocents affected banner and the film made no direct link to that even though they made direct link to the hulk commiting manslaugter (murder would be too harsh although what he did to blonksy was along the lines of murder, kicking an unarmed man to his potential death)

Heck, when he found out Sterns

Spoiler

had "test subjects" he was infuriated, why? Because he brought more of this curse into the world.

It's not like Bruce is trigger happy and loving the Hulk, just because is mind is on an acid trip and he cannot remember doesn't mean he relishes being on the run and feels no remorse for the loss of others.

Norton was hardly bixby, that dude looked like he had totally lost everything and the hulk had taken all efforts of morality from him apart from the killing.

Look at the green goblin/norman osborn line. Osborn was worried about the people he killed but he was persuaded by the goblin to continue, the hulk has no such effect on banners moral.

If a cold hearted person like norman would want to hand himself in for playing a part in some deaths he had no control over yet banner doesn't, what does that say about the banner's moral fibre?