The Jared Leto is The Joker(?) Thread

[ironman29758]

The movies themselves are out of continuity stories. So if you're going to bring that up to refute bringing up Azarrello's version sobbing to Harley, you might as well not be so against what was presented in SS.

Not to mention the fact that some movies has used out of continuity stories that were popular as inspiration for their movies and TV shows. Not to mention the fact the Joker graphic novel was described to be an influence to the Suicide Squad movie, so I can see multiple reasons why that can be used as an example in this particular argument.

Mainly due to the fact that at the end of the day they are all fiction takes on the character exporing different facets of the characters in different ways, means instead of supposed "canon", which especially for DC comics can change depending on the whim of the writer and editor (which is why writers and actors have claimed non canon books as inspiration for their comics, it's just as valid take as any "in continuity comic" imo). Such as "God Loves, Man Kills" on X2, Dark Knight Returns on several Batman franchisel, Ultimate Marvel on sevreal Marvel films and cartoons, Batman: Earth One on Beware the Batman and Gotham, etc. Not to mention the fact that the Russian Brothers has stated that they don't want to make litreal adaption of the comics anyway in interviews such as Wizard World New Or leans, among other interviews:
http://comicbook.com/2016/01/11/joe-russo-compares-captain-america-civil-war-movie-to-comics/

"The Marvel Cinematic Universe is based upon all the movies that have preceded it. It's the Cinematic Universe, it's not the comic book universe. We don't have the issues that the comics do. We don't have all the daring storylines that they do and tie-ins to create what was required to make the original Civil War comics storyline. We're taking the concept of Civil War, the core concept of it, and we're applying it to our storytelling in the Cinematic Universe in its own way. We have to find stories that work within the Cinematic Universe to tell their story. I think you'll see when you see the movie, you'll understand how it takes what's come before and builds upon it to create this conflict.

"I think our job is to surprise you. As a comic book fan, I don't want to go in and see what I already know. I prefer to go in and be surprised. I like when a story teller throws a left curve at me and I'm surprised. That's why I want to go see the movie. A literal adaptation, I should just go read the book again. I think that's what's interesting about different movies. We have two hours and they have years worth of issues."

So why should they look at one "canon" take when they have multiple comics to go through in creating a new take on the comic character for the general audience.

Not to mention the fact that TV, radio and movies which can be considered non continuity has easily influenced comics as easily as the other way around.


Honestly to me both sides of the argument (in both Jared Leto Joker being used as a modern day gangster/stereotypical street pimp and his affections/relationship's with Harley) has a lot of validity. But like hellblazer103 indicated their is multiple traits that Azzarello Joker has that is very Joker-esque even though it was a more crime drama story. Not to mention that Joker and Harley''s relationship wasn't meant to be the focus of the graphic novel, Joker being seen through the eyes of his henchmen was.

 

[Brother Jack]

I like it as an example of how truly evil and despicable The Joker is and why people shouldn't look up to him as some role model ( even though they do anyway ... ) , and it's really cool when you think about the influences for the story. King Of New York, Gangs Of New York, Blue Velvet.... picture a drugged up Christopher Walken or Bill The Butcher reading Joker's lines and tell me it doesn't improve the reading experience .

I can get behind a characterization that attempts to de-romanticize Joker as a way to highlight how actually deplorable he is, though I do think there should be an element to him that is alluring or charismatic, something that pulls you into his orbit. But as much as I like those influences you listed, they aren't the Joker. There is certainly some overlap but I felt like it was taken too far in the book. If you look at Ledger's take, there are obviously several outside influences there, but it added up to something that didn't feel generic.

 

[hellblazer103]

I can get behind a characterization that attempts to de-romanticize Joker as a way to highlight how actually deplorable he is, though I do think there should be an element to him that is alluring or charismatic, something that pulls you into his orbit. But as much as I like those influences you listed, they aren't the Joker. There is certainly some overlap but I felt like it was taken too far in the book. If you look at Ledger's take, there are obviously several outside influences there, but it added up to something that didn't feel generic.

I love how you completely ignored the second part of my post where I brought up specific elements of Joker's personality that are clearly intact in the book.

 

[JOE]

It sucks how the Joker is such a big part of Batman's world, I don't think they can go without using him. It's a shame I hated Leto's version, the Joker is one of my favorite villains. I don't think there's anything to salvage with his character though, unless they have something drastic happen to him to shake the "jealous gangster" out of him and turn him into the actual Joker.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Yes it definitely matters if you're going to use a story that is out of canon as a defense for something that is supposedly in character for the Joker. These movies are supposed to be an adaption of these characters. So when they insert traits that are the antithesis of whom these characters are, that leaves a bad taste. For example if they turned Batman into a blood sucking vampire, would fans be cool with that because some elseword story did it;

There's a difference between using elements from elseworlds stories that fans found really cool e.g. Batman's metal armor suit for fighting Superman, and characterizations that fly in the face of the character's characterization history like Letoker's pining lovesick boyfriend. The former doesn't go against the character and who he is in any way. The latter does.

Agreed.

Not like it hasn't been done:
Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
The Dark Knight Strikes again

to a lesser extent Under the Red Hood(using Joker's old alias to undermine everything Batman stood for) and Arkham Knight(turned by Joker in to rabid attack dog)

All of which were better received than SS Joker, probably excluding TDKSA.

I like the way Batman Beyond bring back Joker in Robin body but that set in future so not really work modern set Batman story.

Still better Joker though than Jared Leto Joker who was so bad and terrible version of Joker who only care about his girlfriend lol.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Leto's Joker (I've said this a million times) is almost exactly like Azzarello's iteration, who is more focused on regaining his strange hold on Gotham more so than outright chaos. And Leto himself stated he was mostly inspired by said interpretation. The same Joker who visited nightclubs, even skinning a man alive inside of one.

So, I ask again, how exactly was what we saw with Leto's Joker out of character, again? Or oh so drastically different outside of the tattoos and metal caps on his broken teeth?

Oh yeah, and in that same book the Joker genuinely cries to Harley Quinn. He's crying while holding her. How's that any different from or worse than Leto's Joker (who didn't ever do that) wanting to reclaim what's his by getting her away from the squad and thus serving his purposes as opposed to theirs?

In fact, I feel like that's not even a valid complaint when you know that wasn't originally how the relationship was going to be portrayed and that it was all cut down last minute.

Wow mic drop moment. Mad props for this post.
I'm getting tired of the "that's not how the character is supposed to be" complaints. I wish people would just admit it's just one version of the character they don't like.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

That ignorant. Not admit to something that not true. Not like it because it make Joker into bad version that act like he not really is.

 

[ironman29758]

Wow mic drop moment. Mad props for this post.
I'm getting tired of the "that's not how the character is supposed to be" complaints. I wish people would just admit it's just one version of the character they don't like.

Honestly, I don't see that happening. Especially with a character who a versatile history such as the Joker.

But I believe that while some elements ha's got to be completely revamped (Harley''s relationship, methods, etc), other elements can be salvaged and retooled in different ways ("King of Gotham"/Modern gangster), maybe even fleshed out which is the benefit of only being in 11 minutes of the movie.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Lol as to the different Jokers, I remember dreadlocks Joker and also in YJ they had a dreadlock Joker who reminded me of a money.
Anyway I don't hate Leto's Joker, I just think he came off too much like a cheesy pimp and that should be toned down. Get rid of the chains and maybe that damaged tattoo but everything else can stay. I would also like to see him with the more clownish smile not just normal mouth with red lips.

 

[Wildcard]

That ignorant. Not admit to something that not true. Not like it because it make Joker into bad version that act like he not really is.

Ignorance is shunning an actors' performance over superficial concerns.

 

[The Joker]

It sucks how the Joker is such a big part of Batman's world, I don't think they can go without using him. It's a shame I hated Leto's version, the Joker is one of my favorite villains. I don't think there's anything to salvage with his character though, unless they have something drastic happen to him to shake the "jealous gangster" out of him and turn him into the actual Joker.

Exactly. But they can still salvage it. Leto is a solid actor, he was just hampered by a horrible script and characterization. Revamp the character and he could be great.

That ignorant. Not admit to something that not true. Not like it because it make Joker into bad version that act like he not really is.

Wasting your time. It's just easier for some people to make believe a characterization is so unpopular because people just don't like it because it's not to their taste, rather than acknowledging people have legit reasons for believing it's bad.

Ignorance is bliss.

A few people talk as though there was something special about his performance when there wasn't. Not to mention superficial elements don't hamper a truly good performance. For example people complained Ledger's Joker wore make up rather than having bleached skin. Those complaints diminished into obscurity when his stellar acting performance and brilliant characterization shone through on the screen.

Superficial concerns are always eclipsed by true quality. Letoker had no true quality because his characterization was hampered by flaws that were anything but superficial.

 

[JOE]

Exactly. But they can still salvage it. Leto is a solid actor, he was just hampered by a horrible script and characterization. Revamp the character and he could be great.

Is Leto signed with for multiple films? He wasn't too happy with the amount of screen time the Joker was given in the final cut. Unless he's contractually obligated I don't think he'd reprise the roll.

 

[Boom]

I'm wondering if WB offered him a role in Blade Runner 2049 as a peace offering.

That, and they are releasing the Suicide Squad Extended Cut, so people will at least get to see more of him (for better or worse).

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Is Leto signed with for multiple films? He wasn't too happy with the amount of screen time the Joker was given in the final cut. Unless he's contractually obligated I don't think he'd reprise the roll.

well he is and I don't think WB would want to recast so soon even with the less than stellar reception to his joker.

hopefully they go back to basics with the character for future films. they tried very hard to do something different and I applaud them for that, but it didn't really connect. It happens.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Leto is presumably already signed for more films. He and Affleck have been seen getting along at events. And the distaste for his portrayal is really limited mostly to boards like this, the GA seems indifferent to approving.

So I don't think it's a question of "If" but "When"

 

[The Infernal]

Probably just won't see Joker for a while I imagine if Leto isn't keen on reprising his role. His Joker didn't really resonate with audiences and there are always more Batman villains that can be used. Some that haven't been done properly and others we've still yet to see at all.

 

[Corysxj88]

Just please make "The Batman" rated R and give us the Joker we all deserve

 

[metaphysician]

There is not the slightest chance in the whole universe that The Batman will be rated R.

 

[King23DC]

It sucks how the Joker is such a big part of Batman's world, I don't think they can go without using him. It's a shame I hated Leto's version, the Joker is one of my favorite villains. I don't think there's anything to salvage with his character though, unless they have something drastic happen to him to shake the "jealous gangster" out of him and turn him into the actual Joker.

Totally agreed.

Not only that but besides the deconstructed view of Batman and Superman as characters in the rest of the Snyder created DCEU on film, I don't think Leto's overly niche and prisoner of trends Joker really works in the universe.

Because everything else has a pretty classic, timeless or faithful adapted look, character wise, to the source material.

 

[Boom]

Yeah.

I can't remember what film critic said this, but they were pretty spot-on. Visually speaking, Leto's Joker is going to feel pretty dated in a matter of years.

 

[PaulCONX]

There is not the slightest chance in the whole universe that The Batman will be rated R.

Yeah, these people who keep wanting DCEU films to be R-rated are idiots. Not only is it unnecessary(a movie has to go to pretty extreme lengths to be classified as R in our pretty desensitized society) but it would alienate and divide audiences even further. Nothing good would come from it.

 

[hellblazer103]

Honestly, I don't see how it's that much of a stretch that this movie or any movie with Batman could be rated R, considering :

1.) Two R rated Batman centric films have come out just this year alone : The Killing Joke and the ultimate cut of BvS.
2.) R rated comic book films are now the " in " thing.
3.) Pretty much all of Affleck's directed films are R rated.
4.) The M rated Arkham Knight game is further proof that audiences are not only ready for a more adulterated Batman, but actually legitimately desire it .

I think it would be very refreshing and liberating to do an R rated Batman film, or at the very least a series like the Marvel Netflix shows. It'll give them a chance to tackle stories like Arkham Asylum and such.

The " but it'll divide audiences !" argument is also a weak one. Kids can still watch shows like Brave And The Bold or the upcoming JLA cartoon while the older fans can have something more their speed, so to speak.

 

[TheVileOne]

IMHO, Arkham Knight didn't really earn its M-rating. It was about same level as Arkham Origins and Arkham City.

 

[KillerWolf]

Yeah, these people who keep wanting DCEU films to be R-rated are idiots. Not only is it unnecessary(a movie has to go to pretty extreme lengths to be classified as R in our pretty desensitized society) but it would alienate and divide audiences even further. Nothing good would come from it.

Ah, thanks, been quite a while since someone called me an idiot. I almost forgot the feeling.

 

[hellblazer103]

Maybe so, but my point still stands.

There's no real reason why adults can't have their own version of Batman while the kids still have theirs.