Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Calvin Ellis]

And the lighter Aquaman(that i like) get a pass, flaws and all

I loved Aquaman and fun fact Aquaman was still following the Snyder movies when it was made. Captain Marvel and WW 84 are or ere the first movies to part from Snyder's DCEU.

 

[Hollis Mason]

When Snyder was doing MOS and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Your first 3 reasons were why the movie got bad reviews. People thought it wasn't for children and was to violent and to dark. They felt it should've been lighter and more like the MCU.

Because first was a movie about Superman, while this one is a movie about Joker And the films were supposed to start a cinematic universe. They're different characters with different styles. Don't get me wrong, i would love to see a more serious and dark cinematic universe than the MCU, but the way they did it was too fast, imo. Superman wasn't that well developed when they started to focus on the philosophy surrounding him. They should have established each character slowly. That, and the movie had many script problems. You have to make audience like the character so when they start to go dark, it actually means something.

This one isn't a cinematic universe film. It's a standalone. Whatever happens here doesn't affect other films. The script is good. May not be the best script of all time, but if it's executed well it could work.

 

[Brother Jack]

I doubt that because during that time it would've looked like a tie-in to his trilogy. I think if it came out during then you might have seen a 10-20% increase in terms of its RT score.

Nolan would have made it clear that it wasn't.

 

[Greens]

I haven't seen the movie so I'm not in a position to chastise any critic, but from these Twitter blurbs it looks like a lot of them are down on the movie because it has nothing to say. Is that a fair criticism? If you're gonna criticize a film because it has nothing to say, obviously you were expecting the opposite. Nobody expects Hobbs & Shaw to have something to say. So was the film mismarketed? Or did these critics have unjust expectations? It's interesting.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I haven't seen the movie so I'm not in a position to chastise any critic, but from these Twitter blurbs it looks like a lot of them are down on the movie because it has nothing to say. Is that a fair criticism? If you're gonna criticize a film because it has nothing to say, obviously you were expecting the opposite. Nobody expects Hobbs & Shaw to have something to say. So was the film mismarketed? Or did these critics have unjust expectations? It's interesting.

I think it has something to say But that something isn't pretty in any way. It's a very cynical message that some will like and some will not.

 

[CK Spider]

Folks, I didn't even see the movie myself and I'll certainly do when it opens here to form my own opinions. I can't really criticize or defend the movie properly without doing so.

I'm sure Todd didn't intend this to glorify violence, but these things rarely interpretative and can get out of hand. Lot's of people think Joker does a great job with its depiction violence, but some don't. There won't be any definitive instance on it. It's bound to be controversial.

No, but the movie message in that regard appears to be “violence is”.

No condemning, no condoning, just showing its ugly face.

I guess there’s a lot of ways to analyze it, but this films don’t seem to be showing a sympathetic character, there is no redeemable quality and no learning from this story.

It’s about a man over the edge falling into madness.

What I said is that I don't think it's fair to say critics are just blindly criticising the movie saying "violence bad", most of them are actually articulating their criticisms quite a bit better. I didn't comment on what the movie's themes are or are not. I'd have to watch it first to do so.

I highly doubt TDK would this level of controversy. The Joker is clearly framed as the bad guy there, even if there are the edgy teens who go on about how "the Joker was actually right, bro". Imagine that in a film which possibly frames the character as a ambiguous figure. That sure could be problematic.

Also, the movie IS getting a lot of praise, so I think you folks need to be that defensive about a film that's not even out yet. I don't think anybody walked into this expecting something like the MCU movies. Logan didn't seem to have a problem with that.

Also, for people using American Psycho as a comparative, I'd advise to look at the RT score of that movie. These kinds of movie have a high potential of being controversial among critics. That's all, folks.

 

[Hollis Mason]

What I said is that I don't think it's fair to say critics are just blindly criticising the movie saying "violence bad", most of them they're actually articulating their criticism quite a bit better. I didn't comment on what the movies themes are or are not. I'd have to watch it first to do so. .

You're right. There are some that have good reasons to dislike this film. But if you check RT, there are many that are actually disliking the idea behind the film, and many that already hated the film before it was even released. The Ehrlich guy, that Time review, the last review added, and many others.

Anyway, like i always said, the best review you can give is the review you make for your own. I have faith in this movie and i hope it doesn't dissapoint me like others this year.

 

[Maze]

Some of Hurt lockers quotes ( the movies has was very well received, as we all know )

While Kathryn Bigelow's taut direction is Academy Award-worthy, Mark Boal's script doesn't get far enough beneath the characters' skin.

Beautifully shot, well acted, and completely unfocused to the point of, well, what was the point? ... don't be fooled.

Bigelow displays a fine Hitchcockian skill set, but her politics are muddy-headed at best.

Don't believe the hype. This is a cliche-ridden mess which treats Iraqis like zombies or creatures from outer space. Peace activist Chris Hedges should have sued the director for allowing his words to serve as an epigraph for this sorry flick.

The film opens with a quote from Chris Hedges saying that war is a drug. ... The film makes that quite clear, but I am not sure it says a whole lot more than that.

That was the experience that Bigelow wanted to share (of course there were nuances) she wanted to put you in the skin of that soldier, with all the thrills, fears and violence that come from it ( and i found it rather sad, ultimately) she didnt want to spell anything about what is right or wrong, politics etc

The movie was a powerful experience, and i wouldn't want to be a soldier on the line after having seen that.

So i dont know about the Joker, but let's see that puppy for what it is.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Greens]

I'm still the top face, because I got my tickets yesterday. IMAX, baby.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I'm still the top face, because I got my tickets yesterday. IMAX, baby.

Still that top face too cuz i got tickets and the Golden Lion win.

 

[Kane52630]

I'm still the top face, because I got my tickets yesterday. IMAX, baby.

Either way, i'm just laughing at all the panic and outrage this caused....

Last week everyone in this thread was celebrating all the praises and watching the Rotten Tomatoes score so closely... and suddenly Rotten Tomatoes is terrible and the Oscars is a joke. lol

 

[Greens]

Either way, i'm just laughing at all the panic and outrage this caused....

Last week everyone in this thread was celebrating all the praises and watching the Rotten Tomatoes score so closely... and suddenly Rotten Tomatoes is terrible and the Oscars is a joke. lol

Rinse and repeat on this site for every movie that has some hype behind it. I'm purposefully not thoroughly reading reviews. Just catching the vibe here and there.

 

[TheGuy]

Some of Hurt lockers quotes ( the movies has was very well received, as we all know )

That was the experience that Bigelow wanted to share (of course there were nuances) she wanted to put you in the skin of that soldier, with all the thrills, fears and violence that come from it ( and i found it rather sad, ultimately) she didnt want to spell anything about what is right or wrong, politics etc

The movie was a powerful experience, and i wouldn't want to be a soldier on the line after having seen that.

So i dont know about the Joker, but let's see that puppy for what it is.

Zero Dark Thirty was even more controversial but was loved by critics. Critique on the film centered on the torture and its seeming endorsement of the practice. The Academy had little love though because Argo, another political thriller released that year is a feel-good movie about Hollywood making a difference politically. I guess Joker's message is just muddied by the narrative and screenplay, hence the lower score.

Even with the early rave reviews from Venice, my expectations for Joker have remained the same.

 

[Predator jp]

Either way, i'm just laughing at all the panic and outrage this caused....

Last week everyone in this thread was celebrating all the praises and watching the Rotten Tomatoes score so closely... and suddenly Rotten Tomatoes is terrible and the Oscars is a joke. lol

i'm still celebrating.
i mean this movie evolved from "a movie nobody wants" to Golden Lion winner.
no reasons to panic really.

 

[Calvin Ellis]

The way I see it is screw the reviews. If you like the movie that is all that matters. For example I love Batman Forever because while it isn't much to look at on film story wise I think it was one of the best movie Batman stories.

 

[Maze]

Zero Dark Thirty was even more controversial but was loved by critics. Critique on the film centered on the torture and its seeming endorsement of the practice. The Academy had little love though because Argo, another political thriller released that year is a feel-good movie about Hollywood making a difference politically. I guess Joker's message is just muddied by the narrative and screenplay, hence the lower score.

Even with the early rave reviews from Venice, my expectations for Joker have remained the same.

Maybe.

Or maybe that is the fact also that expectations are also not the same, for those movies

 

[Hollis Mason]

Zero Dark Thirty was even more controversial but was loved by critics. Critique on the film centered on the torture and its seeming endorsement of the practice. The Academy had little love though because Argo, another political thriller released that year is a feel-good movie about Hollywood making a difference politically. I guess Joker's message is just muddied by the narrative and screenplay, hence the lower score.

Even with the early rave reviews from Venice, my expectations for Joker have remained the same.

Difference is that was 2012, before the twitter bloggers arrived, and people started to be so paranoid about things, Before people like that Time critic started to get attention. at least compared to this point. And this movie was already being hated before the screenings. Also, this film got VERY much praise. That's why it got the Golden Lion.

I have read all the negative reviews in RT and MC and i can tell you it's a very different situation, and a very different topic this movie touches. But like i said, the only place this is getting so controversial it's America, cuz here in Europe it's getting praise from everywhere.

Also, the fact this won Golden Lion should say a lot. That's not a small prize in any way. This film got very much praise, but also very much hate.

 

[kguillou]

I think people do need to relax just a tad. The movie’s winning festival awards no cbm in history has won. Its already cemented itself as a prestige film, DC now has that accolade to hold up. Its not like this is suddenly gonna drop to BvS or SS’ RT score in the coming weeks: this was ALWAYS going to be a film that may not be easily digestible to everybody.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I think people fo need to relax just a tad. The movie’s winning festival awards no cbm in history has won. Its already cemented itself as a prestige film, DC has that accolade to hold up. Its not like this is suddenly gonna drop to BvS or SS’ RT score in the coming weeks: this was ALWAYS going to be a film that may not be easily digestible to everybody.

Exacty. The Golden Lion is there. The Oscars chances still are there, according to many prognosticators. Venice and TIFF directors praised the film. Europe praised the film and keeps praising it. Also many South America websites gave the movie 5/5.

Films like this always get reception like this. Just look at Fight Club, at Clockwork Orange, American Psycho, Shining, Sev7n, or even Black Swan. .

 

[TheGuy]

Difference is that was 2012, before the twitter bloggers arrived, and people started to be so paranoid about things, at least compared to this point. And this movie was already being hated before the screenings. Also, this film got VERY much praise. That's why it got the Golden Lion.

I have read all the negative reviews in RT and MC and i can tell you it's a very different situation.

Really? From what I've remembered, ZDT was hammered not only by a small minority of the critic community but also by the Obama administration as well. I love that film, but I see merits to their opinion too, though I ultimately think it's misguided because ZDT is morally ambiguous (like Joker, it seems). It is unfair to portray the negative reviews of Joker as mere twitter outrage, being woke or SJW when from a good portion of them, criticism is focused on the disjointed narrative. A perfectly valid criticism. This isn't to disregard the fact that there will always be critics who can't separate their political opinions from the actual quality.

 

[Hollis Mason]

Really? From what I've remembered, ZDT was hammered not only by a small minority of the critic community but also by the Obama administration as well. I love that film, but I see merits to their opinion too, though I ultimately think it's misguided because ZDT is morally ambiguous (like Joker, it seems). It is unfair to portray the negative reviews of Joker as mere twitter outrage, being woke or SJW when from a good portion of them, criticism is focused on the disjointed narrative. A perfectly valid criticism. This isn't to disregard the fact that there will always be critics who can't separate their political opinions from the actual quality.

Unfair? Like i said, i have read all the reviews. I also was on Twitter and followed many critics and saw many talk **** about the film. Can you tell me reviews like the EW, where they even say the movie is good but give it rotten cuz it could start a shooting, or that Time review, or the IndieWire, or that new review added from the girl that gave no reason to dislike it, or so many others, have any objetive opinion that isn't biased? I'm not the saying the movie is perfect but it's all about reading the reviews and not just watching the score. Comparing this movie to others like ZDT it's the unfair. First, for the reason this is a CBM, which means it will get a lot more of attention by default, and second for the actual political time we're living that's making everyone go insane and insufferable. Just look at JoJo Rabbit or the backlash OUATIH got from this kind of people. That minority of people has become a big loud minority now, sadly.

I'm not saying the movie will be perfect. It will have flaws, that's sure, but if you can't separete your political views and give an objective opinion about a movie then why are you a critic?

 

[TMP98]

A lot of the reviews, even negative ones, say that the score for this is great, which is rare for one of these movies - Black Panther and Man of Steel are the only ones recently where the music didn't sound generic. Nolan's Bat films too, of course.

 

[Prettyricky]

Conspiracies aside the 3/5 ether being rotten or fresh is a fair question rottentomatoes should explain in detail at-least.

 

[TheGuy]

Unfair? Like i said, i have read all the reviews. I also was on Twitter and followed many critics and saw many talk **** about the film. Can you tell me reviews like the EW, where they even say the movie is good but give it rotten cuz it could start a shooting, or that Time review, or the IndieWire, or that new review added from the girl that gave no reason to dislike it, or so many others, have any objetive opinion that isn't biased? I'm not the saying the movie is perfect but it's all about reading the reviews and not just watching the score.

I personally won't read any review because of spoilers. Just basing on headlines, e.g. from BBC. Reading the reviews before seeing the film robs it of magic and first impressions, so I won't take any advice saying I should read the reviews.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I personally won't read any review because of spoilers. Just basing on headlines, e.g. from BBC. Reading the reviews before seeing the film robs it of magic and first impressions, so I won't take any advice saying I should read the reviews.

Totally fair. I read the script so i don't really mind about spoilers. I hope you enjoy the film.