Joker "The Joker" in development with Todd Phillips and Martin Scorsese attached? - Part 2

[Rocanrol]

From the leaked footage, it’s pretty obvious it does not romanticize violence.

I think that would be a valid opinion, but so far the critics that I have seen have been ranting about the violence in itself.

 

[CK Spider]

From the leaked footage, it’s pretty obvious it does not romanticize violence.

I think that would be a valid opinion, but so far the critics that I have seen have been ranting about the violence in itself.

I've read a lot of reviews that criticezed the framing, stating that the Joker is treated as a quasi-benign force of vindication for the opressed. Ultimately, everyone will have their own opinions on the matter, but this is not just "violence bad".

 

[JimThompson]

I don't like that term because its often used from people to insult others for wanting more progressive representation in film, which isn't bad at all. I also hate when people use the term SJW as an insult. I think that in this case, Critics are just far too worried about some sort of psycho being inspired by this, but there's many other violent films over the years that haven't caused anything. We need to look at this film as a story about a character called the Joker and a possible origin for him, instead of being like "it's a good film but i hate it because it might inspire somebody". That's not how art works and it shouldn't have to work that way. If the film is of high quality, then it should be praised as such. This film is not meant to glorify the Jokers actions. Philips has said countless times there's a point where we can't feel bad for him anymore and it seems like critics don't understand any of this.

Often, perhaps, but not always. Sometimes it is just being used to highlight how a lot of people today are more interested in some token nod to progress than any actual thought about expanding possibilities. If, for example, the character of the Joker was being played by a female in this film as opposed to a male, I am willing to bet a fair share of those negative reviews would have turned into glowing ones.

That is not progressive; it is actually quite condescending and insulting.

Just my two cents, of course. Opinions vary.

 

[TMP98]

The violence in the leaked footage is grotesque, I don't think it felt glorified at all

 

[Predator jp]

Taxi Driver made it pretty clear Travis was a lunatic who shouldn't be idolized and serves as a cautionary tale. We can't know how Joker frames its protagonist without seeing it.

and yet the audiences at that time took it the wrong way and Scorsese was shocked by it so i guess it really doesn't matter intentions behind the film.

 

[Orb]

One of the leading criticism is the cold cynicism of the film and some critics seem confused whether the movie wants you to root for the Joker despite Todd Phillips very clearly states this is meant to be a story about a hero turning into the villain. There is no lesson learned, there is no victory. Now people can interpret the movie anyway they like but this movie is coming right at the perfect storm for especially Americans regarding gun violence and mass shooters which shapes the narrative of the film. Everything I've seen and read from the script to the leaked scenes, you're not suppose to root for him and certain critics view this movie as a horror film and I side with them.

Here's a Q/A with Todd from last night. There's also a spoiler version of the Q/A that I am not posting as he does mention the ending.

 

[TheSmoothKnight]

I love John Wick 3 but I agree 100% with Eric. Also, I wonder if the The Dark Knight came out this year, would those same people have a problem with it? I really think they would.

 

[Calvin Ellis]

I love John Wick 3 but I agree 100% with Eric. Also, I wonder if the The Dark Knight came out this year, would those same people have a problem with it? I really think they would.

Yes they would. Just like how if Man of Steel came out around the same time as TDK it would've probably got a different reaction.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The violence in the leaked footage is grotesque, I don't think it felt glorified at all

absolutely this

 

[Brother Jack]

Yes they would. Just like how if Man of Steel came out around the same time as TDK it would've probably got a different reaction.

I doubt that. MOS was already drawing unfavorable comparisons to Nolan when it came out in 2013, it would have been exponentially worse it if had been released during Nolan's trilogy.

 

[Hollis Mason]

From what i read in the reviews, people are angry this film doesn't really have a positive message. The ending, the whole story, is depressing and miserable. And honestly, i ****ing love to hear that. It's just like American Psycho and a Clocwork Orange. I think they don't understand this isn't a movie about a superhero, but a supervillain. One of the most evil and disgusting villains of all time.

And let's remember this won a Golden Lion, jesus. Europe is praising this film. It's only from America where the backlash comes from because people are so sensitive these days it's just insane. I'm not saying this movie won't have flaws, but the people calling it too dark and cynical look like freaking clowns. Like, what were they expecting? Do you guys imagine what would happen with classics like American Psycho, Shining, Fight Club, or so many others if they were released today? How is being too dark and miserable a flaw if that's the purpose of the film?

 

[DeadPresident]

Yeah 100% - if TDK came out now the “violent white boy inspires other violent white boys” narrative would dominate.

In the US it’ll be the same thing from critics. In Europe there’s no mass shooting issue so the critics don’t incorporate that aspect, but in the US the predominant takeaway will be “it’s a violent white guy whose violence is uncomfortably justified and will inspire other white lone wolf types”.

 

[Rocanrol]

I've read a lot of reviews that criticezed the framing, stating that the Joker is treated as a quasi-benign force of vindication for the opressed. Ultimately, everyone will have their own opinions on the matter, but this is not just "violence bad".

No, but the movie message in that regard appears to be “violence is”.

No condemning, no condoning, just showing its ugly face.

I guess there’s a lot of ways to analyze it, but this films don’t seem to be showing a sympathetic character, there is no redeemable quality and no learning from this story.

It’s about a man over the edge falling into madness.

 

[Hollis Mason]

No, but the movie message in that regard appears to be “violence is”.

No condemning, no condoning, just showing its ugly face.

I guess there’s a lot of ways to analyze it, but this films don’t seem to be showing a sympathetic character, there is no redeemable quality and no learning from this story.

It’s about a man over the edge falling into madness.

Exactly. Remember the final line of American Psycho? That fits this movie so good.

 

[Calvin Ellis]

I doubt that. MOS was already drawing unfavorable comparisons to Nolan when it came out in 2013, it would have been exponentially worse it if had been released during Nolan's trilogy.

I doubt that because during that time it would've looked like a tie-in to his trilogy. I think if it came out during then you might have seen a 10-20% increase in terms of its RT score.

 

[Rocanrol]

I was channeling my inner Bateman while writing that.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I think that's why Venice loved this film so much more than others. It actually does something different instead of trying to be a positive film. This movie doesn't try to tell you what's good or right. You decide. That's pretty interesting. It doesn't want to play it safe.

The backlash is surely gonna make this movie become a cult film. I doubt it will affect box office.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I may be alone in this but i kinda hope DC keeps making controversial films like this that make everyone go insane.

 

[Calvin Ellis]

I may be alone in this but i kinda hope DC keeps making controversial films like this that make everyone go insane.

That's what Snyder was doing with his 5 story arc and everybody lost their mind.

 

[Hollis Mason]

That's what Snyder was doing with his 5 story arc and everybody lost their mind.

Controversial not in quality but in the themes it touches. Even the mixed reviews from this one say it's good but dislike it because:

1)It's too problematic
2)It's too dark
3)It's too cynical
4)Actually good reasons to dislike this film (2%)
5)What film?

 

[Maze]

Too bad, that some people can't understand that art is not necessarly supposed to tell you , what to think, and teach, about good and evil, what is moral, what is not, but share an experience, feelings, ideas. Then, you can reflect on it. Then people can have conversations about it.

 

[Calvin Ellis]

Controversial not in quality but in the themes it touches. Even the mixed reviews from this one say it's good but dislike it because:

1)It's too problematic
2)It's too dark
3)It's too cynical
4)Actually good reasons to dislike this film (2%)
5)What film?

When Snyder was doing MOS and Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Your first 3 reasons were why the movie got bad reviews. People thought it wasn't for children and was to violent and to dark. They felt it should've been lighter and more like the MCU.

 

[JimThompson]

They felt it should've been lighter and more like the MCU.

That seems to be a lot of people's major issue with the DCU movies.

 

[Maze]

And the lighter Aquaman(that i like) get a pass, flaws and all

 

[Maze]

ps: well re reading Aquaman rotten tomatometer, it seem fair