The Dark Knight Rises The Joker sized elephant in the room

[Nave 'Torment']

It is indeed fun to guess and speculate away.

I wouldn't actually mind some of those themes that were raised in Batman Forever being referenced here, purely because I think that they were only ever acknowledged in that film in the flimsiest of terms. It does sound as though they're going to be brought up given that Nolan and Bale have both discussed the nature of how long you let pain define you when describing Bruce's journey in TDKR.

Another point to raise with this is that if it has been other freaks and large scale threats that Bruce has been dealing with in the 8 year gap (with the possibility of a couple of Joker jail breaks thrown in too) his mission still has purpose in as much that he is averting major threats and catastrophe breaking loose throughout Gotham. If all he's been doing is dealing with petty criminals (self-indulgence is a perfect way to describe this) then his purpose is merely to avoid dealing with his own loss in any honest way. Nolan has described Bruce as hitting a brick wall in TDKR; emotionally and psychologically this brick wall may be better represented if his mission and the standards he set himself in BB have been lost. On a metaphorical level it puts Bruce back in that prison at the start of BB, locked inside, fighting them one at a time for no real reason except anger.

Arkham Asylum? Or perhaps Gotham at large? A city can easily become a prison. So yeah, it really does work that way on a metaphorical level. I guess if Bruce begins to realise that he would know that it's time to call it quits.

I'd love to see it that way though. And I think with the "brick-wall" and "frozen-in-time" analogy what they mean is a repetition of freaks vs. batman over and over again. Like TDK playing on an endless loop, with climatic encounter following climatic encounter like we see in the comics, until TDKR when that vicious cycle has to come to an end.

 

[gregtestagent]

They'll just mention that the Joker died of an overdose and be done with it.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Arkham Asylum? Or perhaps Gotham at large? A city can easily become a prison. So yeah, it really does work that way on a metaphorical level. I guess if Bruce begins to realise that he would know that it's time to call it quits.

I'd love to see it that way though. And I think with the "brick-wall" and "frozen-in-time" analogy what they mean is a repetition of freaks vs. batman over and over again. Like TDK playing on an endless loop, with climatic encounter following climatic encounter like we see in the comics, until TDKR when that vicious cycle has to come to an end.

Sorry I'm not sure what you're referencing with AA or Gotham? I'm having a slow day.

But yes, the frozen in time analogy could go the way of freak confrontation after freak confrontation too, and I think either possible circumstance is bad news in general for Bruce.

In Nolan's films ever since he returned to Gotham after his training with LOS he always had a clear purpose in his mind, even when that purpose was overly simplistic, idealistic and naive. The suggestion of hitting a brick wall to me is that he's lost that purpose again... he's just doing it because he can't stop. Obviously if there are freaks abound in Gotham he couldn't stop if he wanted to, but now that Rachel and Harvey are gone, I kind of like the idea that he just has to do this now even though the city is relatively calm compared to BB and TDK.

It pushes him back to that place of being a deeply damaged man who must do something tangible to address all that he's lost every night. It also makes Bane's appearance and any eventual victory (and hopefully happiness) that Bruce finds more gratifying.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Sorry I'm not sure what you're referencing with AA or Gotham? I'm having a slow day.

But yes, the frozen in time analogy could go the way of freak confrontation after freak confrontation too, and I think either possible circumstance is bad news in general for Bruce.

In Nolan's films ever since he returned to Gotham after his training with LOS he always had a clear purpose in his mind, even when that purpose was overly simplistic, idealistic and naive. The suggestion of hitting a brick wall to me is that he's lost that purpose again... he's just doing it because he can't stop. Obviously if there are freaks abound in Gotham he couldn't stop if he wanted to, but now that Rachel and Harvey are gone, I kind of like the idea that he just has to do this now even though the city is relatively calm compared to BB and TDK.

It pushes him back to that place of being a deeply damaged man who must do something tangible to address all that he's lost every night. It also makes Bane's appearance and any eventual victory (and hopefully happiness) that Bruce finds more gratifying.

Yeah I agree with that. I was referring to Arkham/Gotham as the metaphorical new prison that Bruce/Batman has found himself trapped inside.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Yeah I agree with that. I was referring to Arkham/Gotham as the metaphorical new prison that Bruce/Batman has found himself trapped inside.

Ah yeah I'm with you. That's what I was getting at, yes.

 

[doobie]

In the leaked info (which I know isn't confirmed to be true) Bane says "Joker was more formidable than I expected". If this is in the film, why would Bane have been expecting anything from Joker or known about Joker before he fought Batman. Did the LOS bring him in to wear Bruce down.

 

[Nevincer]

^ That's why it's probably fake. I and most of the people here would hate that notion.

 

[ALP]

And I think its funny that people has to hear the Joker's name to be able to enjoy this movie. Like its more important than the plot and the acting.

Yes. He escaped at the end of Batman Begins. They had to put him in the movie to close that chapter. To be clear, nobody is saying that Joker shouldnt be mentioned. People are only questioning the point of suggested dialogue that, well, has no point. The only people that are demanding something to happen and going overboard are the "there must be a Joker mention" people.

Agreed. A mention of Joker should at least have some relevance, no? Why randomly bring up a guy thats been imprisoned for nearly a decade.

 

[Nevincer]

... Seriously?

 

[doobie]

I had a fantasy after seeing TDK. During the Narrows attack, Ra's watches to see how the gangs are organising themselves and who the most dangerous people are. He notices one particularly charismatic gang leader, the self named Joker, with wild hair and make up, who seems to have all the craziest people on his side...and knows what to say to persuade anyone to join him, and has planned all the cleverest attacks already.

Ra's approaches him as panic rages around.."I'm impressed young man, you truly are the embodiment of the chaos I wanted to create here, you are the man who is going to make the city tear itself apart in my name" , pulls his sword toward his face.

"But still you flinch...still you have some fear, some useless logical thoughts that hold you back from your full potential..."

Ra's holds him still and cuts the smile with his sword,

"now you are truly an agent of chaos. If you survive this, you will emerge my greatest creation, and the one man who can challenge my last failed student for Gothams soul. I am going now to face my disobedient heir and I expect to die, but If I fail, I know you will destroy his world."

Ra's then gets on the monorail leaving the shocked Joker bleeding on the ground.

 

[doobie]

I hope they break the fourth wall and there's a scene in a graveyard(perhaps Bruce visiting his parents). In that cemetery there's a tombstone that reads, "Heath Ledger."

I think Bruce should visit his parents grave and every stone in the cemetery should be a dead Batman actor, like all the actors from the 60s show and the 90s alfred.

 

[Nevincer]

What on earth just happened to this thread...

 

[ALP]

lulz these ideas kick ass!

 

[ThePhantasm]

I hope they break the fourth wall and there's a scene in a graveyard(perhaps Bruce visiting his parents). In that cemetery there's a tombstone that reads, "Heath Ledger."

I hope you aren't serious.

 

[El Payaso]

I hope they break the fourth wall and there's a scene in a graveyard(perhaps Bruce visiting his parents). In that cemetery there's a tombstone that reads, "Heath Ledger."

Yeah, like those Simpsons' Halloween specials intros.

 

[ThePhantasm]

By the way, I realize this is only semi-on topic but I just learned Arkham City was Hamill's last outing as the Joker. I just have to say he was one of the best Jokers ever and will be sorely missed. What Heath was to live-action, Hamill is to animation - and that laugh. Wow. I grew up watching BTAS a decade ago and that laugh still gets me.

 

[Laderlappen]

I hope they break the fourth wall and there's a scene in a graveyard(perhaps Bruce visiting his parents). In that cemetery there's a tombstone that reads, "Heath Ledger."

No it should say...Jack Nicholson.

 

[TinkerTailor]

I had a fantasy after seeing TDK. During the Narrows attack, Ra's watches to see how the gangs are organising themselves and who the most dangerous people are. He notices one particularly charismatic gang leader, the self named Joker, with wild hair and make up, who seems to have all the craziest people on his side...and knows what to say to persuade anyone to join him, and has planned all the cleverest attacks already.

Ra's approaches him as panic rages around.."I'm impressed young man, you truly are the embodiment of the chaos I wanted to create here, you are the man who is going to make the city tear itself apart in my name" , pulls his sword toward his face.

"But still you flinch...still you have some fear, some useless logical thoughts that hold you back from your full potential..."

Ra's holds him still and cuts the smile with his sword,

"now you are truly an agent of chaos. If you survive this, you will emerge my greatest creation, and the one man who can challenge my last failed student for Gothams soul. I am going now to face my disobedient heir and I expect to die, but If I fail, I know you will destroy his world."

Ra's then gets on the monorail leaving the shocked Joker bleeding on the ground.

It's actually a flashback worked into TDKR. Neeson and JGL filmed it in London.

 

[バット人]

No it should say...Jack Nicholson.

Why, he hasn't died?

 

[Ryan]

I didn't go into tdk to expect every loose end from begins to be tied up. The events of tdk supposedly happend close to the events of BB, and yet they didn't really deal with rounding up all the inmates from arkham, the destruction cause by the LOS, how the new falconi came to power etc..and it didn't bother me at all. Having the Scarecrow back in the opening scene was cool, but I wouldn't say it was necessary and that the film wouldn't have made sense without it. I think it would have been cool to see him on the ferries at the end, and the same goes for Zsasz...who also has disappeared. So with that being said, do I expect that tdkr, which takes place 8 years in the future will have a ton of references from the past 2 films. I would have guessed not, and would have been fine with that. I do think however that the joker should get some sort of nod if your going to mentions ras,dent,scarecrow,falconi, and the los in this third film. Is it necessary? No. But if your going to mention everyone else...why wouldn't you mention or reference the most prolific villain from the whole series? Just my 2 cents.

 

[poo-storm]

I didn't go into tdk to expect every loose end from begins to be tied up. The events of tdk supposedly happend close to the events of BB, and yet they didn't really deal with rounding up all the inmates from arkham, the destruction cause by the LOS, how the new falconi came to power etc..and it didn't bother me at all. Having the Scarecrow back in the opening scene was cool, but I wouldn't say it was necessary and that the film wouldn't have made sense without it. I think it would have been cool to see him on the ferries at the end, and the same goes for Zsasz...who also has disappeared. So with that being said, do I expect that tdkr, which takes place 8 years in the future will have a ton of references from the past 2 films. I would have guessed not, and would have been fine with that. I do think however that the joker should get some sort of nod if your going to mentions ras,dent,scarecrow,falconi, and the los in this third film. Is it necessary? No. But if your going to mention everyone else...why wouldn't you mention or reference the most prolific villain from the whole series? Just my 2 cents.

Exactly. They could have put any other random drug dealer in for Scarecrow and the plot of TDK would not have been hampered. It was just a fun and clever way to keep continuity and tie up a loose end from BB. Nolan and Co could also think up a clever and fun way to reference the Joker without it being corny or lame.

 

[doobie]

I disagree, it showed how much Batman was on top of Gotham, that the guy who was so scary in Begins, scaring mob bosses, was now a nothing in a van. I don't think thats a disrespect to Crow any more than Batman being beaten at the end of TDK was disrespect to Batman, it was just to show how Batman was winning at that point.

 

[Ryan]

I'm not sure I agree or disagree..lol. I guess I saw the opening to TDK to be very much like a the intros to the old Bond films. He presented 2 short, 5 minute segments that introduced the viewer to the Joker and then Batman and what they are all about. I dont' really too much into things to find meaning, where there may be none. Kinda like the comment about "keeping cats away" from TDK. I never looked at it like a specific reference to catwoman, although I'm sure some will swear it is now that catwoman is in the third film. I even had someone argue with me that the LOS influence was throughout TDK. Did anyone really watch that movie and think that? I guess the argument can be made. But had the Riddler been anounced for the third film, I'm sure someone could say he was present all through TDK and Begins....just don't ask me how..lol.

 

[Revenant]

No it should say...Jack Nicholson.

That would be really dumb.

 

[Nevincer]

It was dumb regardless.