The McCain Thread

[Lightning Strykez!]

Then let me rephrase:

When was the last time an African American was arrested for being black, because there was a law which banned a person from simply being black?

Um...ever heard of segregation? Civil Rights? "Black/Whites Only" drinking fountains? Jim Crow? Rosa Parks?

In other words, there have been all sorts of laws and stipulations erected against blacks, banning them from certain activities and localities. And all because of their skin color. I thoroughly understand the gay/discrimination factor, but even I must admit that you cannot equate the two.

 

[The Senator]

Um...ever heard of segregation? Civil Rights? "Black/Whites Only" drinking fountains? Jim Crow? Rosa Parks?

In other words, there have been all sorts of laws and stipulations erected against blacks, banning them from certain activities and localities. And all because of their skin color. I thoroughly understand the gay/discrimination factor, but even I must admit that you cannot equate the two.

And it's currently illegal to discriminate against an African American, correct?

You can't equate the two because they aren't the same. But they are similar, and merited my original comment, as I was being accused of whether I knew what it was like to have been discriminated against.

Not the same-- but similar.

 

[comicgirl]

In some people's eyes, yes it does and I speak from my own personal experiences, as I have quite a few gay and lesbian friends. EXAMPLE: If I'm at a restaurant or walking down the street with them, passersby WILL associate me with them just because of the stereotypes that are attached to them. "He must be gay too."

The funny part? I haven't even slept with them.

not surprised.

 

[redfirebird2008]

And it's currently illegal to discriminate against an African American, correct?

You can't equate the two because they aren't the same. But they are similar, and merited my original comment, as I was being accused of whether I knew what it was like to have been discriminated against.

Not the same-- but similar.

It's illegal, but it still happens all the damn time, whether it be with the cops or hiring tendencies by employers, etc. Gays are getting similar treatment to how blacks once were LEGALLY treated, but that doesn't mean blacks are completely free from dealing with discrimination because it still goes on. Both forms of discrimination are wrong and it will be a long time before they are both gone. It took a hell of a long time for blacks to finally get legal protection from discrimination (even though it still goes on) and I really am afraid it will take just as long for gays to get similar legal protection because as long as we have religion influencing public policy as much as it does, it will be a big roadblock.

 

[Varient]

You may have been beaten for being the wrong color.

But gays have been beaten and lynched and mistreated long for their sexuality as well.

Remember Matthew Shepherd? How two straight boys tricked him into thinking they were gay, before they brutally beat him and stuck his dying body on a fence post in the middle of nowhere?

How about Lawrence King? The gay eighth grader who was shot in the head by one of his class mate because he dressed in women's clothes?

Not to mention countless others who have been beaten, taunted, had their name dragged through the mud, been literally dragged through the mud, and murdered because they were gay.

With respect,.. you really can't win this. I said many more and I meant many more. For every ONE example you can pull up,.. I can pull up HUNDREDS because of color. HUNDREDS of blacks who are beaten, taunted, been denied BASIC rights up until TODAY compared to the "few" who got mistreated for sexual preference.

You're right. We have the ability to hide our sexuality if we want to.

But some of us feel like being honest to those around us. Some of us don't like being forced to hide who we are because society says it isn't wright.

YUP YOU HAVE THE CHOICE to open yourself up to ABUSE.
Please don't go there with me. Bottom line if you want your harrassment to stop,.. you can move and then keep your pref behind closed doors. I CAN'T move and be black only at home.

I don't think it's fair that people have to hide what they are into as long as it normally doesn't hurt others - but PLEASE don't try to compare something YOU HAVE alternatives to that I do not as "the same" or "worse."

When was the last time an African American worked for a company which specifically said that blacks couldn't be employed because of their skin color? When was the last time an African American signed up to defend his or her country, but was told they couldn't do so because they were the wrong color?

When was the last time an African American was arrested simply for being black?

And on that note-- when was the last time a heterosexual African American couple was denied insurance benefits or the ability to adopt a child simply based on skin color?

1. US Military until 1978,.. with segregation on the books for the safety of the troops currently STILL going on. Are you aware of a US military policy that keeps minorities out of Backwood areas of the US below certain military strength numbers because of the ignorant *****s who live in these places?
California/Oregon Border, Parts of the Northwestern States, to name two?
2.ALL THE TIME. (Geez I still get pulled over for being black,.. let me have a broken pencil stuck in the dash and I spend the weekend in Jail.)

3. (Smile) Denied Insurance REGULARLY - because Insurance companies have the right to deny service and DON'T have to say why. When the numbers point (I checked after being turned down by Mercury insurance in 1994) to only white couples from all walks of life being insured - You don't have to tell me it was color based,... Years of that mess is why Mercury insurance is in trouble today.
As far as adoption - Everything I've read says that best people develop from two parent households with one male and one female. There are exceptions but the science community has grudgingly agreed that it is the best combo. So I ask,... Why should a child suffer the selfishness of a person who wants to raise a child alone or raise a child in a same sex relationship?

Because there are companies out there today which specifically state that they cannot hire gays. The US military doesn't let gays serve openly in the military. Up until 2003, it was illegal for two homosexuals to have sex with each other in private in Texas. And today, only a handful of states allow domestic partnership benefits, three states allow civil unions, and one state allows gay marriage. Meanwhile, double the amount of those combined states specifically ban two gays from getting married. And double that amount have provisions which make it difficult or illegal for a gay couple to adopt a child.

Do you REALLY want to start comparing the laws STILL on the books in certain states against Blacks for just being black? (Google Jim Crow laws) Do you want to split hairs as far as WHY there are domestic partnership benefits in the first place? (Geez - man and woman usually need the breaks involved to raise a family and provide for emergencies )
Those same states that "ban" gay marriage have no issue with civil unions and/or gays living together, JUST THE TERM "MARRIAGE" BEING APPLIED to what they do.
At that point you move right smack dab into religion which is where the ROOT of the term/concept marriage comes from. I only scanned back as far as the 1500's but the definition of "marriage" has been between MAN and WOMAN,.. period.

Change the definition with the general public,.. then fight for the right to call your unions "marriage."

You want to talk about injustices in this country, you don't have laws anymore which restricts your ability to live your own life freely. You have ignorant bastards who say hateful things, who deserve to be treated the same way as they treat you. But society has looked down on racists as being unacceptable, haven't they?

Ah,... you are in error. There are many laws still in place against minorities mostly used on blacks that prevent me from living my life freely, Laws designed to circumnavigate the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 13th amendment -where we have Prisions filled with blacks today working slave labor to provide more money than what is needed to keep them in jail.

Then There are laws that are openly violated when folk can get away with doing it. (Red Lining / Hiring practices that are exposed even today.)

You also infer that society doesn't look down on gay bashers?

Interesting.

What about those who preach out against gays? What are they? They 'just have a different opinion about homosexuality.' That's all.

Meh
I'm not going to list the 100+ white organizations in America today on the FBI's books who preach out against Blacks,.. it's common knowledge.

As for the LBGT community? We have laws which not only forbids us to live openly and freely, but ban us from receiving employment under some circumstances.

So again, don't play the discrimination game with me.

Don't tell me I don't know what it's like to be discriminated against.

Because while I'm not black, I am gay. I don't know what it's like to be discriminated against because I'm black... you don't know what it's like to be discriminated against because you're gay.

End of goddamn story.

See,... you think I'm playing with you.
TSK.
You have issue cause you can't live the way you want,.. BUT YOU CONTINUE TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS THAN I DO in living that life.
(trip)

 

[The Chairman]

Just because gays haven't gotten it as bad as blacks doesn't mean their persecution any less harsh. For years, they were still the victims of discrimination and inhumane laws and were robbed of their rights, and they still are.

jmanspice as usual outlined his points quite excellently and is absolutely right.

And gays don't open themselves to abuse. Revealing your sexual identity is not opening yourself to abuse. It's no different, from my perspective, from revealing your race, religion or political views. It's a part of who you are and no one has the right to abuse you for it.

even today Gays are not penalized in government positions when they come out.

Um, McGreevey?

 

[The Senator]

Every counter argument you raised, Varient, is the result of ignorance and racism.

Not the result of laws currently on the books.

The fact of the matter is, there is no law in this country which forbids you from living your life the way you want to. Every law which once discriminated against African Americans has been overturned. Racism and bigotry and profiling towards African Americans still exists. But there is no law which states that cops are required to arrest African Americans because they are black. There is no law which states companies cannot hire someone based on their skin color.

As for me... there are hundreds of laws on the books which explicitly deny homosexuals rights to employment. We are denied the right to serve. Up until 2003, we were unable to live privately in the third most populated state in the country simply because we were gay.

States can vote on measures to forbid us from getting married, as well as measures which forbid us from adopting or receiving employment benefits. If such a measure came up in Mississippi or Alabama, it would struck down as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. If a measure discriminating against gays went to the Supreme Court, they would vote to continue discriminating against us due to our sexuality, because today it is politically and socially acceptable to hate gay people, because they live a different lifestyle, whereas it is socially unacceptable to hate black people because of their skin color.

We aren't allowed to judge people based on appearance. We have to judge them based on character. And to some, our character has been classified as a horrendous, fire-breathing sin which we deserve to burn for. Hence, why we deserve to be crucified by society for our actions.

Today, it is widely believed to be socially unacceptable to say or do anything negative to an African American. Show me a police officer who discriminates against an African American, and I'll find you a thousand protesters who will get that man fired. Show me an African American who is brutally beaten to death by a white man, and I'll find you a thousand lawyers willing to fight to send that man to prison for the rest of his life. Find me an employer who refuses to hire you because you're black, and again, I will find you as many lawyers as the day is long who are willing to defend you and your cause.

Now show me the family of Matthew Shepard, and I'll find you thousands of people and a major religious organization who think that his death was justified in the name of the lord. Find me the dead body of Lawrence King, and I'll show you thousands of parents who would have instructed their boy to do the same thing as his killer. Find me a gay man who wants to serve openly in the military, and I'll give you 50 United States Senators, a President of the United States, three former Presidents, hundreds of house members and dozens of governors who will work for the years ahead to keep us out of the army because they find gays to be 'icky' and morale deterrents.

No one finds a black man immoral. No one refuses to serve alongside someone because of his race.

I have not said that gays have it worse. Nor have I said that some of their problems are worse than the problems faced by the African American community.

I have said, though, that homosexuals have been constantly discriminated against and have current laws which make their lifestyle immoral and illegal. We do not want to choose between living a straight life and a gay life, because we know who we are and accept who we are and want the rest of the world to understand that we, goddamnit, are human ****ing beings who deserve to be treated with at least one iota of human dignity.

Your people had it bad. Your people had it worse. But my people have it bad, and we're living proof that bigotry in its purest form exists in this country.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Just because gays haven't gotten it as bad as blacks doesn't mean their persecution any less harsh. For years, they were still the victims of discrimination and inhumane laws and were robbed of their rights, and they still are.

No one here is challenging the mistreatment of gays. But their "harsh" experiences are incomparable to that of blacks. It's just that simple. No one is going to clean out my old neighborhood in Greenwich Village and relocate all of the gay individuals to another continent on a fast-track to slavery. That wouldn't have been done even hundreds of years ago, because homosexuality has been openly embraced, even in the Greek and Roman civilizations, among many others.

In contrast, being a certain color here in this country makes some people question your very intelligence and competence levels before you even open your MOUTH. In some situations, a qualified, white, gay man will get a job interview before an equally qualified black, gay man.

 

[Marx]

I haven't watched the video, but I know plenty about McCain's religious issues.

McCain has a history of religious problems. First, he was an Episcopalian, then tip-toed out of that church and became a Baptist so he could pander to evangelical voters. His current pastor thinks Hurricane Katrina was God's revenge on New Orleans for having a gay pride parade earlier that year. That alone disgusts me.

But I think a fundamental difference between McCain and Hagee, if one has to be made, is that McCain has only been a Baptist for a few years, versus Obama's relation to Wright which has lasted for two decades. However, Obama did one better by at least trying to distance himself from Wright, while McCain explicitly sought Hagee's endorsement last year and the two have stood hand in hand several times on the campaign trail.

It's nice to know that if either McCain or Obama are elected, both will have received advice and political help from hate-spewing imbeciles. That's certainly going to do wonders for society

What??? You're kidding right??? I hadn't heard that one before! That's just ignorant. (But then again I haven't really paid all that much attention to McCain's religious affiliations. I have been too busy being completely mortified by the beliefs of Romney and Huckabee.)

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

not surprised.

You're not surprised I didn't sleep with them?

 

[StorminNorman]

Um, McGreevey?

Come on, Chairman, McGreevey being forced from office had nothing to do with his being gay - it wasn't even because he cheated on his wife.

McGreevey got in trouble because he put his boy toy in cushy government positions, a complete abuse of executive power. Not only was it a cushy government position - it was the Homeland Security adviser position, for which McGreevey's boy toy was completely and utterly unprepared for. It was received as a horrible decision even BEFORE it turned out McGreevey was messing with the guy's behind. The man (the adviser) couldn't even get security clearance from the federal government for crying out loud.

He deserved to not only be kicked out of office - but faced some sort of legal penalty.

 

[Marx]

No one here is challenging the mistreatment of gays. But their "harsh" experiences are incomparable to that of blacks. It's just that simple. No one is going to clean out my old neighborhood in Greenwich Village and relocate all of the gay individuals to another continent on a fast-track to slavery. That wouldn't have been done even hundreds of years ago, because homosexuality has been openly embraced, even in the Greek and Roman civilizations, among many others.

In contrast, being a certain color here in this country makes some people question your very intelligence and competence levels before you even open your MOUTH. In some situations, a qualified, white, gay man will get a job interview before an equally qualified black, gay man.

Gays are often made to supress any and all feelings that they may have because society will reject, denounce, and ridicule them. Just because Gays can hide their differences from society doesn't make it any less painful or humiliating. To suggest that African-Americans have had it worse? I tend to disagree.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

To suggest that African-Americans have had it worse? I tend to disagree.

Then you must be neither gay nor African American. No offense, but unless you've been in either one or both positions, you really have no standing to cast judgement either way.

 

[Marx]

Then you must be neither gay nor African American. No offense, but unless you've been in either one or both positions, you really have no standing to cast judgement either way.

SO unless I'm not one or the other I can have no say? That's incredibly narrow-minded.

 

[The Senator]

To suggest that African-Americans have had it worse? I tend to disagree.

I disagree with your disagreement, Marx.

I understand that African Americans have had it worse. That they've been treated as non-persons as well.

Gays have had it pretty ****ing bad throughout history. But nothing compares to the hardships Africans faced throughout history.

Currently, gays have become society's scapegoat. And when gays get their rights (which I hope is in my lifetime), transgendered folks will become the scapegoat. Not to mention Hispanics are becoming the scapegoat due to the illegal immigration 'problem.'

I don't know what will come next after those folks are treated equally. Maybe it'll be people who like the color green. Society just enjoys screwing some people more than others. It'll never end.

 

[The Senator]

Come on, Chairman, McGreevey being forced from office had nothing to do with his being gay - it wasn't even because he cheated on his wife.

McGreevey got in trouble because he put his boy toy in cushy government positions, a complete abuse of executive power. Not only was it a cushy government position - it was the Homeland Security adviser position, for which McGreevey's boy toy was completely and utterly unprepared for. It was received as a horrible decision even BEFORE it turned out McGreevey was messing with the guy's behind. The man (the adviser) couldn't even get security clearance from the federal government for crying out loud.

He deserved to not only be kicked out of office - but faced some sort of legal penalty.

I agree. McGreevy deserved to be ousted because he was a corrupt tool. I don't think many people expected him to admit he was a gay American when he gave that speech in 2004. I think they were expecting him to confess that he was a corrupt prick.

Had McGreevy simply been gay and that was his only downfall, he would have been able to stay in office and quite probably would have been re-elected. Look at Barney Frank, for example. He came out, and has been re-elected multiple times. Even that gay Republican Rep from Arizona was re-elected after he came out. So was Gerry Studds, who had some problems of his own on top of him being the first openly gay member of Congress.

 

[Marx]

I disagree with your disagreement, Marx.

I understand that African Americans have had it worse. That they've been treated as non-persons as well.

Gays have had it pretty ****ing bad throughout history. But nothing compares to the hardships Africans faced throughout history.

Currently, gays have become society's scapegoat. And when gays get their rights (which I hope is in my lifetime), transgendered folks will become the scapegoat. Not to mention Hispanics are becoming the scapegoat due to the illegal immigration 'problem.'

I don't know what will come next after those folks are treated equally. Maybe it'll be people who like the color green. Society just enjoys screwing some people more than others. It'll never end.

Then allow me to clarify - I am not, nor have I ever said that African-Americans haven't had it bad. I am fully aware of history. Maybe I may have made a mistatement, but I don't think it's right or fair to diminish the struggle of gays.

 

[Kelly]

Damn, if spamming was defined as repeating yourself.....over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.....................we would all be perma banned by now......lmao.

 

[redfirebird2008]

What??? You're kidding right??? I hadn't heard that one before! That's just ignorant. (But then again I haven't really paid all that much attention to McCain's religious affiliations. I have been too busy being completely mortified by the beliefs of Romney and Huckabee.)

Parsley also claims America was founded partly to destroy Islam. Wonder what the Founding Fathers would think of such a statement.

 

[The Senator]

Parsley also claims America was founded partly to destroy Islam. Wonder what the Founding Fathers would think of such a statement.

Considering most of them didn't believe in God but believed in religious freedom, they're probably spinning in their graves.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Considering most of them didn't believe in God but believed in religious freedom, they're probably spinning in their graves.

My thoughts exactly. These whackos are trying to hijack the original intent of the Founding Fathers. Pretty creepy. Actually no. Pretty scary is a more apt description. That kind of language (destroying another religion) is like a modern Hitler.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

"I" don't call it anything......I'll let Obama call it........and HE calls him a friend, a mentor, a spiritual advisor, an inspiration, a family member........soooooooooooooooooo "I" guess "I'll" go with what Obama himself calls him. And guess what MS, I have no problem with any of that........but if Obama for one second thought that many Americans would not find Wright's comments at least "strange" coming from the "spiritual advisor" of the man leading a campagin of "change and coming together"......THEN, I guestion his judgment........which is all I'm saying.......I question his judgment.

no, YOU said it wasn't an association.
therefore you must call it something.
that's what I meant if you want to call it a friendship, guess what, it is still pretty much an association.
that's why in court, if you have a close relationship, such a friendship with someone they call it an association.

and in the court system, at least, guilt by association is still very much NOT the norm.

 

[Kelly]

Yes, an associate can be a friend, it can also be an imaginary friend.....

But you left out the fact that he has also said he is the same as a family member.....last time I checked, a family member is alittle more than an associate.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

as I said before.
even if you have a close relationship, he can be the same as a family member, but if he was tried? that wouldn't be enough to convict him in a real court.
because the laws are made to recognize that people can be reactionary and just plain dumb sometimes.
the laws are there to protect people from guilt by association.
but no one wonders WHY that is.

 

[Mister Sinister]

If Pete Stark ran for president, he wouldn't have these problems.