The Dark Knight Rises The "Nolan's views on Batman villains" thread

[Victarion]

We don't have any way of having any idea what he thinks about Mr. Freeze, Penguin, or Poison Ivy, and I think it's overanalyzing his comment a little, considering he was only talking about a villain to follow The Joker who wasn't too similar to him.

I think it is safe to assume Nolan is speaking about villains that fit in with his version of Gotham. Mostly the "mundane" rogues like Riddler, Penguin, Black Mask and any others I missed that aren't supernatural or overly sci-fi like Clayface, Freeze and Ivy.

Or perhaps he couldn't think of a way to present the Riddler or some of these other rogues without copying Joker (to a greater extent than he did with Ra's and Bane and Talia).

 

[Tequilla]

BlueLightning , he has a great approach to the creative process. He creates a story , and then find the best operators for them. Like Goyer said , producers usually told them , they want A , B and C in the next movie and then he would have to throw some story to fit the popular characters. He reverses that. First the fundamentals principals of what he wants to tell. That's probably one of the reasons i enjoy Rises so much. Its all Bruce. And Bruce Wayne is a character that deserved this movie a long time ago.

 

[BlueLightning]

Oh yeah! There is no doubt of that. I admire Chris Nolan for managing to make his films so compelling in every aspect, he told the story he wanted to tell. He delivered an excellent trilogy in my opinion, an overall complete story of Batman, true to the source material with a unique vision.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Here's the actual quote to read in its proper context: "Bane is primarily a physical presence," Nolan continued. "He's threatening in a monstrous way and very frightening in a physical way, and that's why we went for him. We didn't want to do any kind of watered down version of the Joker, which a lot of those characters are, and we really found something in him. He's got incredible intelligence as well and a really fascinating backstory that we were able to draw elements from into our story. I'm very excited for the world to see what Tom Hardy has done with this, because he's created this unbelievably unique character."

"A lot" =/= "most." The point he was making was that he wanted to use a character that was absolutely nothing like the Joker. This topic is much ado about nothing.

This post is as valid now as it was in 2011 in the context of this thread.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

And the hilarity in him saying that, and then making Bane a watered down R'as, will last forever.

 

[Victarion]

Bane wasn't a watered down Ra's. In the grand scheme of things, it was viceversa.

 

[Indy Flash]

Oh yeah! There is no doubt of that. I admire Chris Nolan for managing to make his films so compelling in every aspect, he told the story he wanted to tell. He delivered an excellent trilogy in my opinion, an overall complete story of Batman, true to the source material with a unique vision.

Yeah I agree with that.

 

[TheBat812]

And the hilarity in him saying that, and then making Bane a watered down R'as, will last forever.

Bane was as much like Ra's as Bruce was. All with the goal of cleansing Gotham, all with different personal reasons, all with different methods.

 

[BlueLightning]

I think Bane has more in common with Bruce rather than Ra's. He is the Anti-Batman of the series.

 

[BatLobster]

Bane wasn't a watered down Ra's. In the grand scheme of things, it was viceversa.

Agreed. Bane is a crap-ton more evil and scary than Ra's. He's Bruce if he fully lost himself to "the monster".

They might have had similar goals and affiliations but their personalities are very different. I'd love to see an "interrogation scene" type scenario between the two of them. I bet it'd be a hell of a conversation.

 

[Hawkeye70000000]

Here is a little longer version of what Nolan said,

-We got a chance to speak with Nolan after the screening, and he laid out his rationale for selecting Bane as Batman's chief adversary: "I tasked David Goyer (co-writer on the story) early on, when we knew the shape of our story, with looking for a worthy antagonist. We examined really all the possibilities, and what we were looking for was an archetype. What we were looking for was a character that embodied a threat that we hadn't dealt with before, that Batman hadn't dealt with before in our films.

"Bane is primarily a physical presence," Nolan continued. "He's threatening in a monstrous way and very frightening in a physical way, and that's why we went for him. We didn't want to do any kind of watered down version of the Joker, which a lot of those characters are, and we really found something in him. He's got incredible intelligence as well and a really fascinating backstory that we were able to draw elements from into our story. I'm very excited for the world to see what Tom Hardy has done with this, because he's created this unbelievably unique character."-

Nolan was saying that most of the villains in the batman universe doesn't present a physical threat to batman the way bane does. Joker didn't go after batman looking to destroy him. They were mind games. How many characters would have brought the type of physical presence such as bane did verse those who were more a mental challenge for batman to solve and bring down.

 

[Omegabat]

I have to admit I wasn't really excited about this movie as I was for TDK just because Bane isn't really one of my fave Bat villians ( though I do like him and the Knight Fall arch). I would have much rather seen Riddler, Pengiun, or Hugo Strange, Black Mask, or even DeadShot and DeathStroke in the film over Bane.

Even Mr Freeze could be done in a realistic way sorta. I saw a story on Extreme Home Make Over a few years ago, about a family who had daughter with a medical condition that required her to wear a vest with some sort of coolant in it to keep her body from over heating. That could be one way to make him a bit more realistic.


Anyway, after seeing this new trailer I am sold on Bane now and I more excited than ever to see this! Bring on July lol!

Deathstroke has no history with Batman,Bane is the closest thing Batman can have to Deathstroke.Deadshot deosn't have much history with Batman either,he only became a fan favorite after Suicide Squad his early years as a Batvillain are far from memorable.
Riddler is a worthless jobber who only thrives on nostalgia,seriously all those Riddler supporters cant even come up with a decent story for him,especially not one which could logically follow TDK.Strange is dull and boring,Black Mask is a poor mans Red Skull,Penguin LOL.

 

[Omegabat]

And the hilarity in him saying that, and then making Bane a watered down R'as, will last forever.

Well then the comics beat him to the punch,cause Bane did hijack Gotham with the League and a nuclear reactor.

As someone pointed out it comes down to archetype,Bane best represents the anti-Batman,Joker best represents the gimmick villains,Ra's best represents the masterminds.So you're wrong,Bane is in an entirely different class of villains as compared to Ra's,Riddler on the other hand is rightfully a watered down Joker.

 

[The Joker]

Bane is not the anti Batman in the comics. Bane in the comics has a completely different set of ideals to the one in TDKR. In the comics Bane doesn't care about corruption, or the wealthy, or bringing justice to anything.

Bane came to Gotham to prove he was better than Batman, and take it over and run all of the criminal enterprises. There was never any parallels drawn between him and Batman as being mirror images of each other.

The only villain I do see a real black vs white contrasts made to is Batman and the Joker, in that Batman represents order and Joker represents chaos;

 

[BlueLightning]

I kind of disagree there. I don't dispute that The Joker is the opposite of Batman, his perfect enemy and true nemesis. But Bane does have some qualities on the comics that make him an "evil Batman" of sorts. On Rises is more evident, whereas in the comics is a little more nuanced. Chris Sims, from Comics Alliance made an interesting analysis a year ago about Bane, and whereas some things could be a little far fetched, it makes some good points. I'll made a little summary below.

Batman is born into a world of privilege, receiving almost everything as a legacy from his father. Bane is sentenced for life on prison because to pay for his father's crimes, born to nothing except his athletic prowess and intelligence, traits he shares with Batman. Batman travels around the world to better himself, whereas Bane is confined to a small and hostile environment. Bane grows driven by vengeance to take what he wants without concern for those around him. Batman doesn't kill, whereas Bane would "kill for anything"....

 

[Tequilla]

I think Bane has more in common with Bruce rather than Ra's. He is the Anti-Batman of the series.

Almost every Batman villain , is a reflection of some facet of Batman.

In Rises , i think Bane share some traces of Batman , but Talia also mirrors some stuff.

 

[The Joker]

I kind of disagree there. I don't dispute that The Joker is the opposite of Batman, his perfect enemy and true nemesis. But Bane does have some qualities on the comics that make him an "evil Batman" of sorts. On Rises is more evident, whereas in the comics is a little more nuanced. Chris Sims, from Comics Alliance made an interesting analysis a year ago about Bane, and whereas some things could be a little far fetched, it makes some good points. I'll made a little summary below.

Batman is born into a world of privilege, receiving almost everything as a legacy from his father. Bane is sentenced for life on prison because to pay for his father's crimes, born to nothing except his athletic prowess and intelligence, traits he shares with Batman. Batman travels around the world to better himself, whereas Bane is confined to a small and hostile environment. Bane grows driven by vengeance to take what he wants without concern for those around him. Batman doesn't kill, whereas Bane would "kill for anything"....

The article is really stretching. Those "similarities" are surface level. There's several villains in Batman's rogues gallery who come from their parents influence or legacy.

Hush for starters. Then you have Prometheus. Deathstroke is another villain who is frequently referred to as an Anti-Batman. But the one who is most considered an Anti-Batman is The Wrath;

Often considered the purest Anti-Batman is the villain known only as The Wrath, who first appeared in 1984. The Wrath's origin is a direct criminal parallel to that of the young Bruce Wayne's. His parents were a pair of burglars he idolized heavily until they were shot by a police officer. Although the police officer had believed the two were finishing a robbery, in reality they had been simply skipping out on their rent. The Wrath grew up hating all forms of the law, and swore revenge against it in a matter almost exactly the same as Batman's War on Crime. The Wrath traveled the globe honing his mind and body to near perfection, before beginning a one-man worldwide vendetta against those claimed as heroes for working to uphold the law. He even adopted a costume nearly identical to Batman's. Although the Wrath added firearms to his arsenal, and other items for lethal force, he also came equipped with a utility belt, Wrath-vehicles, and an outfit essentially Batman's, but maroon instead of black, and embedded with a "W" instead of a Bat-symbol. In his first appearance in Gotham City, he came into conflict with Batman while he was attempting to assassinate Commissioner Gordon.[1] Although the original Wrath would eventually be defeated, his successor would later appear to fight Batman and Nightwing many years later as an act of revenge.[2] This Wrath would also be apprehended.

http://seekersofthebat.com/2382/the-wrath-the-anti-batman/

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wrath_(Earth-One)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrath_(comics)

 

[BlueLightning]

Yeah, the article mentions him too. He is more "on the nose". But that's what I was referring about "Anti-Batman". Evil version doesn't equal archenemy, well at least from my perspective.

 

[BatLobster]

I think Bane still works as an anti-Batman, even though there are other characters like Hush that seem directly created for that purpose. There's no set way to create an evil doppleganger. You can play up areas where they are similar, or play up where they are opposite. So Bane doesn't have to come from wealth to be considered an anti-Batman. Him being born with nothing heightens the parallel in a different way.

To me, the biggest anti-Batman aspect of Bane in the comics is his extreme focus and will power. How he trained his body and mind in that prison and willed himself out of there, just like Bruce trained himself to the peak of his abilities.

I don't think Chuck Dixon, Graham Nolan and Doug Moench were aiming to create an anti-Batman when they created Bane, they were aiming to create someone who could credibily defeat him. But I think in the process they left a blueprint for a pretty cool, more subtle sort of anti-Batman.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, the article mentions him too. He is more "on the nose". But that's what I was referring about "Anti-Batman". Evil version doesn't equal archenemy, well at least from my perspective.

I would never accuse Bane of being Batman's archenemy. That's unquestionably the Joker.

 

[BlueLightning]

I didn't say otherwise. Completely agreed.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, I don't think there's a Batman fan on Earth who would contest that.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Deathstroke has no history with Batman,Bane is the closest thing Batman can have to Deathstroke.Deadshot deosn't have much history with Batman either,he only became a fan favorite after Suicide Squad his early years as a Batvillain are far from memorable.

You're wrong.

Spoiler

This was years before Bane.

Riddler is a worthless jobber

As opposed to Bane, who is the poor man's Prometheus and was a gimmick character equivalent to Doomsday.

who only thrives on nostalgia,seriously all those Riddler supporters cant even come up with a decent story for him,especially not one which could logically follow TDK.

Hush
Dark Knight, Dark City
His appearances from Detective Comics from the 820's-890's
Riddle Me That
Run Riddler Run
Arkham Asylum/City

Strange is dull and boring

Batman: Prey
Arkham City

Black Mask is a poor mans Red Skull

Red Skull= WWII era superpowered Nazi scientist
Black Mask= Ruthless crime boss



Oh, I get it, because they have similar masks. That makes Bane a poor man's Spawn.

Penguin LOL.

Well then the comics beat him to the punch,cause Bane did hijack Gotham with the League and a nuclear reactor.

No he didn't. Ra's Al Ghul intended to poison the populace of Gotham through biological warfare, Bane assisted him for a short while. Bane intended to irradiate the city.

As someone pointed out it comes down to archetype,Bane best represents the anti-Batman,Joker best represents the gimmick villains,Ra's best represents the masterminds.

Ra's has been outsmarted by Riddler, see Hush.

So you're wrong,Bane is in an entirely different class of villains as compared to Ra's,Riddler on the other hand is rightfully a watered down Joker.

No he's not. Ra's is as smart as Bane, he's as physically adept as Bane. Plus, almost every villain is an aspect of Batman gone too far:

Ra's- Taking justice too far
Two-Face- Having one personality dominate another
Joker- The chaos caused by Batman being all he causes
Riddler- Taking his brilliant mind too far
Scarecrow- Fear as a crippling weapon rather than tool
Bane/Wrath/Prometheus- Inverse of Batman's motivations

They are all the Anti-Batman

 

[BlueLightning]

I think I have another concept of "Anti". When I say "Anti", the closest concept I can think is "evil version" or doppelgänger. But maybe thats just me.

However, I agree that most of the more prominent members of the Rogues Gallery act as a mirror to some characteristics of Batman.

 

[Omegabat]

You're wrong.

Spoiler

This was years before Bane.



As opposed to Bane, who is the poor man's Prometheus and was a gimmick character equivalent to Doomsday.

Hush
Dark Knight, Dark City
His appearances from Detective Comics from the 820's-890's
Riddle Me That
Run Riddler Run
Arkham Asylum/City

Batman: Prey
Arkham City

Red Skull= WWII era superpowered Nazi scientist
Black Mask= Ruthless crime boss



Oh, I get it, because they have similar masks. That makes Bane a poor man's Spawn.





No he didn't. Ra's Al Ghul intended to poison the populace of Gotham through biological warfare, Bane assisted him for a short while. Bane intended to irradiate the city.

Ra's has been outsmarted by Riddler, see Hush.

No he's not. Ra's is as smart as Bane, he's as physically adept as Bane. Plus, almost every villain is an aspect of Batman gone too far:

Ra's- Taking justice too far
Two-Face- Having one personality dominate another
Joker- The chaos caused by Batman being all he causes
Riddler- Taking his brilliant mind too far
Scarecrow- Fear as a crippling weapon rather than tool
Bane/Wrath/Prometheus- Inverse of Batman's motivations

They are all the Anti-Batman

Dont show me Deathstroke scans,I have read that entire series.He's one of my favorite characters,the only reason people remember that arc is cause Slade beat Batman the rest of the story is forgettable and meaningless,certainly not movie adaptation worthy.Batman and Slade have no conflict or history.And what exactly would Slade have been in Rises? a mercenary? check we got that with Bane.

Doomsday had no personality or depth when he was introduced,he killed Superman by in an all out brawl,Bane got a solid origin story in Vengeance of Bane.Prometheus was created years after Bane,so how exactly is Bane a poor man's version of him? Bane's creators mentioned Doc Savage as an inspiration.

Yeah I've read all those stories,each have a completely different version of the Riddler,one second he's a criminal mastermind who deduced Batman's secret,then he's a PI who forgot,then he's a demon worshipper etc.Only Riddle me That is a proper Riddler story,Dark Knight Dark City is one my all time favorite Batman stories but if I wanted a Batman story on cults,Barbatos,demon worship I'd rather go for Morrisons Batman.Hush was a lame Jeph flippin Loeb story where characters pop in at random and are poorly handled.That story had Batman going through Knightfall all over again only for Riddler to pop in at the end and reveal himself as the "TEH mastermind".Even an idiot can write a story like that,Hush was by all accounts poorly written.Hush himself was a dismal character,the writer had no grip on most of the characters(in typical Loeb fashion we got dozens of well known characters running around),it did nothing for the Riddler aside from him deducing Batman's secret ID(and by his own admission he needed the Lazarus pits along with years of experience fighting Batman something which Bane didn't) and then it didn't last long for writers to ignore that remove that development either.

Black Mask is at his core just a sadistic criminal with a torture fetish and an empire,just like Skull but Skull is that and a LOT more.Bane is nothing like Spawn.

Bane is smarter than Ra's by Ra's own admission,he's also physically more superior and a better h2h fighter going by their feats.Ra's is however more skilled with weapons and his vast resources make him even more dangerous than Bane IMO.

Read the "Bane" one shot.It screams TDKR.

I already addressed the stupidity that was Hush,it was'nt just Ra's who was outsmarted but also the Joker,so yeah lets digest the sheer stupidity of that.

Even Snyder's Lincoln March had more panel time before he was revealed as the final villain.