The Official Batman Forever Thread - Part 2

[GothamAlleys]

Then you must not have read any comics where Bruce is haunted by his parents death and dreams of bats, or an obsessive genius Riddler, or an angry Dick Grayson taken under Bruce's wing. It felt more like Batman to me than the others did. Only Two Face was all wrong.

Ive read and own more than a few Batman comic books, and youre describing events, not the character. Forever adopts a fair share of events from comic books, but so do all the other films. But as far as Batman character, he strays away from the comic book like crazy and doesnt match any incarnation. Again, its a constantly calm, relaxed and depressed guy. This is Kilmer's Batman, the only 2 expressions he does in the movie

He lacks all the signature elements of Batman, acting and taking poses like a bat, walking a fine line with self control , and dominating anger


For a fact, Keaton's Batman reflects the 40s Incarnation, Clooney reflects the 50s/early 60s version and Bale the Modern Age Batman. But as far as Kilmer I cant think of a match for him

And yes, Batman did brood in the comics, but he didnt look like he need a hug and a girlfriend. Both Keaton and Bale are seen thinking of their parents alone, but their eyes and expressions spell 'anger', not 'weeping'

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

So I just got the 2-disc CD in the mail (takes a little longer to get to Ireland).

I'm currently listening to it as I write this... and the thing i'm most struck by is how much listening to the music on its own can be something of a chore. It's much too frantic and circus-like to be a truly enjoyable listening experience. This is an 'everything and the kitchen sink' Batman score.

In saying that, there are pieces of music that I like that jump out once in a while. The softer pieces of music are my favorite as Goldenthal does a good job of allowing them to speak for the characters.

And his Batman theme is still damn fine and more Batman-y than anything Zimmer whipped up.

Perhaps a couple more listens and I may warm up to this even more.

 

[AnneFan]

I'm currently listening to it as I write this... and the thing i'm most struck by is how much listening to the music on its own can be something of a chore. It's much too frantic and circus-like to be a truly enjoyable listening experience. This is an everythingg and the kitchen sink Batman score.

In saying that, there are pieces of music that I like that jump out once in a while. The softer pieces of music are my favorite as Goldenthal does a good job of allowing them to speak for the characters.

I know what you mean. When you listen to the score at once it does become same-y. I think my favourite cue, apart from the main title and the previously released "Capsule" would be "Riddles solved/Partners/Battleship". It's not as frantic - it's slower and softer - and connects with the Batman character, with the theme touching on a few different moods.

 

[El Payaso]

More believable for him to fall for a shrink who helps him face his haunting dreams instead of some photographer he hardly knows that Alfred takes to the Cave or a psycho chick in a cat costume who blows things up and kidnaps innocent people and teams up with psychos like the Penguin to frame him.

Actually no.

Alfred being angry at Bruce's decisions is nothing new, and that excellent depiction of Catwoman that you describe is exactly what Catwoman is. It's funny how you try to make it look as something bad.

But shying away Batman is a disgrace. Specially when he shies away from a bimbo that we're supposed to believe is some great psychiatrist (great psychiatrist? And the best she can do to get into Batman's psyche is showing some cleavage?). I mean, while Burton's Batman could face Catwoman like a man, Schumacher's Batman decided to act like a modest chaste damsel in front of Chase, a girl who lacks the strength and personality Catwoman had.

I'll take that brief shot over looking at Danny DeVito chewing raw fish or always drooling like some rabid dog for two hours.

Well that speaks volumes about what you prefer to see in a Batman movie, and justifies your preferences for BF, a movie that's itself pretty close to that close-up.

A monster-man Penguin who was supposed to be a monster-man is better than a Batman's butt close-up in a Batman movie. But then again about anything in this world is.

What ever makes you happy.

Whatever is more Batman makes me happy.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Actually no.


But shying away Batman is a disgrace. Specially when he shies away from a bimbo that we're supposed to believe is some great psychiatrist (great psychiatrist? And the best she can do to get into Batman's psyche is showing some cleavage?). I mean, while Burton's Batman could face Catwoman like a man, Schumacher's Batman decided to act like a modest chaste damsel in front of Chase, a girl who lacks the strength and personality Catwoman had.

eh, whit? He obviously was suspicious about Chase Meridian's motives, and was all about protecting himself there, specifically his secret ID of course. So, of course, that means his 'masculinity' is called into question, if you prefer Burton's take on Batman of course.

So, just to show you how you can easily twist certain scenes in a movie, to make the other BM look weak/bad...you could also say that the Burton Batman was a dumb sucker when he first confronted Catwoman, as soon as she gives any type of indication she is physcially interested in him, (in the midst of battle no less, after she has just tried to knock him off a buidling), he starts thinking with his d*ick, lets his guard down and she stabs him in the nuts. haha

 

[El Payaso]

eh, whit? He obviously was suspicious about Chase Meridian's motives, and was all about protecting himself there, specifically his secret ID of course. So, of course, that means his 'masculinity' is called into question, if you prefer Burton's take on Batman of course.

I don't mind Batman feeling intimidated by a woman. But to shy away the way he did in BF is somehting else. I mean, actually stepping away and giving his back to her, like he was the girl in a old romantic movie.

Now, Catwoman intimidating Batman is different from a bimbo like Chase Meridian intimidating Batman.

So, just to show you how you can easily twist certain scenes in a movie, to make the other BM look weak/bad...you could also say that the Burton Batman was a dumb sucker when he first confronted Catwoman, as soon as she gives any type of indication she is physcially interested in him, (in the midst of battle no less, after she has just tried to knock him off a buidling), he starts thinking with his d*ick, lets his guard down and she stabs him in the nuts. haha

Well him thinking with his d*** is different from him acting like... you know, the opposite. And again, a masked rough woman that reflects who he is but in female is different from some air-headed girl whose most significant weapon is her cleavage. Batman cannot fall for that.

But that's just part of it. In another scene, Bruce Wayne, Batman's alter ego, a criminalistic expert, the man who understands criminal's mind, the great detective... not only doesn't know what a Rorschach ink test is, but falls into it: "do you like bats, dr.?" Ouch, man. If you decide to give out your identity, okay. But Batman cannot fall into give himself away because of an ink test. He's supposed to know what an ink test is, not having a shrink explain it for him.

That's not doing Batman any justice.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

she stabs him in the nuts. haha

Selina's not stupid... she wanted to give them a test drive later on.

She kept the stabbing above the belt. t:

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I don't mind Batman feeling intimidated by a woman. But to shy away the way he did in BF is somehting else. I mean, actually stepping away and giving his back to her, like he was the girl in a old romantic movie.

Now, Catwoman intimidating Batman is different from a bimbo like Chase Meridian intimidating Batman.



Well him thinking with his d*** is different from him acting like... you know, the opposite. And again, a masked rough woman that reflects who he is but in female is different from some air-headed girl whose most significant weapon is her cleavage. Batman cannot fall for that.

But that's just part of it. In another scene, Bruce Wayne, Batman's alter ego, a criminalistic expert, the man who understands criminal's mind, the great detective... not only doesn't know what a Rorschach ink test is, but falls into it: "do you like bats, dr.?" Ouch, man. If you decide to give out your identity, okay. But Batman cannot fall into give himself away because of an ink test. He's supposed to know what an ink test is, not having a shrink explain it for him.

That's not doing Batman any justice.

So, what you are saying here is, if a guy does not think with his dick, but is actually being careful with who he hooks up with, for the sake of getting hurt, played with, or even for his own personal safety, then he is acting like an asexual?!(let's keep it to that description, as opposed 'acting like a girl').

anyway, it was clear that BM was interested in Chase Meridian, when he says 'direct arn't you?', he gives her the lavicious once over, before controlling himself and being sensible. He was being a smart player there, showing interest, but pulling away from her before he knows the score.
Look at her face when he jumps off the building, she knows she has got to him, and he fancies her.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Selina's not stupid... she wanted to give them a test drive later on.

She kept the stabbing above the belt. t:

She might not be dumb, but she definitely isn't as smart as she thinks she is, she's still young, and is either naive, or hypocritical in her actions.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Batman wasnt interested in Vale, it was obvious like sun in the movie. Both Alfred and Vale had to keep calling and chasing Wayne throughout entire movie to get his attention on her. He himself brushed her off many times cause he had 'more important things on his mind' like dealing with crime wave.

Kyle was naturally of his kind, it was his bride of frankestein, two monsters sharing pain and duality, it was a perfect reason for them to bond in this weird, Gothic union. And lets not twist the facts, Batman was always fighting with her equally, he was never drooling over her and everyone knows it. The only time he let the guard down when he first met her and he was obviously puzzled as to what is she doing, but he punched her off the roof afterwards and fought with her like with any villain ever since

Rachel was one of the very few people from bruce's childhood that Wayne trusted and believed in, and even his moral guide, so it was also a very plausible reason for having an affection for her

But Chase? Are you kidding me? Its just a kinky loose girl who wants to fullfill her sexual fantasies who talsk in seductive way and shows her body all the time, and yet Kilmer looks like he sees a girl for the first time and goes to her office the nest day asking her out

or hypocritical in her actions.

? Well, this is how Catwoman has always been, changin her mind all the time and shifting from friend to foe

 

[El Payaso]

So, what you are saying here is, if a guy does not think with his dick, but is actually being careful with who he hooks up with, for the sake of getting hurt, played with, or even for his own personal safety, then he is acting like an asexual?!(let's keep it to that description, as opposed 'acting like a girl').

I know you read my post and I know you get it.

I'm not talking about 'a guy' but Batman, I'm not talking about being careful but shying away, physically stepping away and give his back to the oteher person.

Just in case you're confused by my words, and I'm positive you're not:

Physically, the scene mirrors what happened with Bruce and Vicky in B89, only that in that movie it was Vicky delicately shying away and giving her back to Bruce. In BF Batman does what Vicky did.

I'm sorry but Batman had faced far tougher women than Chase: namely Vicky and Catwoman. After that and having met Chase just once, where is this sudden inner repression come from? I think Schumacher was trying to tell us that chase's presence affected Batman beyond his control... but having portrayed Chase as a bimbo with a diplomma... it was absurd.

anyway, it was clear that BM was interested in Chase Meridian, when he says 'direct arn't you?', he gives her the lavicious once over, before controlling himself and being sensible. He was being a smart player there, showing interest, but pulling away from her before he knows the score.
Look at her face when he jumps off the building, she knows she has got to him, and he fancies her.

Yeah, it was clear that this air-headed shallow mature woman who's still thinking in fulfilling teenage fantasies was enough to make Batman tremble. The problem was not that it's not there, the problem is how absurd that is. After Catwoman, this Chase girl couldn't have had anyn more power over Batman than any other frivolous Gothamite girl having the hots for Batman. Batman gets nervous only by her cleavage. I'm sorry but Batman's a little better than that.


Now that... being Batman an absolute ignorant about the basic psychology concepts such as the Rorschach test... he might have been impressed by Chase's cheap psycho-babble.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

haha, aye, that rorschach test moment was a bit wonky.

 

[Godzilla2014]

That's okay! Sometimes fandom can blind people to the facts.

Facts like what they're espousing is an opinion.

Kilmer doesnt match any version of the character. In MEGA short: no anger, no temper, no Bat poses and moves at all, constantly sad and calm, blonde, falls for a random teasing woman, and the list goes on and on for very long. The only 2 characteristics he shares with comic books Batmen is that hes a good detective and skilled technician

But the worst part of it all is lacking the basic core of the character, which is fury/anger, slef control issues and bat like poses (Bale squatted on the statues and porches, stayed in the shadow, flew with spread wings, Keaton also landed and flew with spread bat wings, his face was screaming anger, controlling issues, wings spreading, etc)

Ive read and own more than a few Batman comic books, and youre describing events, not the character. Forever adopts a fair share of events from comic books, but so do all the other films. But as far as Batman character, he strays away from the comic book like crazy and doesnt match any incarnation. Again, its a constantly calm, relaxed and depressed guy. This is Kilmer's Batman, the only 2 expressions he does in the movie

He lacks all the signature elements of Batman, acting and taking poses like a bat, walking a fine line with self control , and dominating anger


For a fact, Keaton's Batman reflects the 40s Incarnation, Clooney reflects the 50s/early 60s version and Bale the Modern Age Batman. But as far as Kilmer I cant think of a match for him

And yes, Batman did brood in the comics, but he didnt look like he need a hug and a girlfriend. Both Keaton and Bale are seen thinking of their parents alone, but their eyes and expressions spell 'anger', not 'weeping'

I completely agree!

 

[GothamAlleys]

I HIGHLY recommend Agony Booth website's recap of Batman Forever. Its imo the best writeup on BF ever written. I cant post a link here cause it supposedly contains some bad language, but Google it up. Trust me, its more than worth it

 

[Two-Face]

Two-Face: "One man is born a hero, his brother a coward. Babies starve, politicians grow fat. Holy men are martyred, and junkies grow legion. Why? Why, why, why, why, why? Luck! Blind, stupid, simple, doo-dah, clueless luck!" Actually like this quote.

Dick Grayson: "I need a name! Batboy, Nightwing, I dunno. What you think? What's a good sidekick name?"
Bruce Wayne: "How about Dick Grayson, college student?"
Dick Grayson: "Screw you!"

Dick Grayson: "All I can think about every second of the day is getting Two-Face. He took my whole life. And when I was out there tonight, I imagined it was him that I was fighting, even when I was fighting you. And all the pain went away. Do you understand?"
Bruce Wayne: "Yes, I do."
Dick Grayson: "Good, cause you gotta help me find him. And when we do, I'm the one who kills him."
Bruce Wayne: "So, you're willing to take a life."
Dick Grayson: " Long as it's Two-Face."
Bruce Wayne: "Then it will happen this way: You make the kill, but your pain doesn't die with Harvey, it grows. So you run out into the night to find another face, and another, and another, until one terrible morning you wake up and realize that revenge has become your whole life. And you won't know why."
Dick Grayson: "You can't understand. Your family wasn't killed by a maniac."
Bruce Wayne: "Yes, they were. We're the same."

Alfred Pennyworth: "Master Bruce. Master Bruce. How are you, young man?"
Bruce Wayne: "You haven't called me that for a long time."
Alfred Pennyworth: "Old habits die hard."

Two-Face: "You're counting on the winged avenger to deliver you from evil, aren't you, my friend?"
Bank Guard: "Are you gonna kill me?"
Two-Face: "Maybe, maybe not. You could say we're of two minds on the subject."

Some of my favourite quotes from the film.

 

[The Shape]

Two-Face: "One man is born a hero, his brother a coward. Babies starve, politicians grow fat. Holy men are martyred, and junkies grow legion. Why? Why, why, why, why, why? Luck! Blind, stupid, simple, doo-dah, clueless luck!" Actually like this quote.

Dick Grayson: "I need a name! Batboy, Nightwing, I dunno. What you think? What's a good sidekick name?"
Bruce Wayne: "How about Dick Grayson, college student?"
Dick Grayson: "Screw you!"

Dick Grayson: "All I can think about every second of the day is getting Two-Face. He took my whole life. And when I was out there tonight, I imagined it was him that I was fighting, even when I was fighting you. And all the pain went away. Do you understand?"
Bruce Wayne: "Yes, I do."
Dick Grayson: "Good, cause you gotta help me find him. And when we do, I'm the one who kills him."
Bruce Wayne: "So, you're willing to take a life."
Dick Grayson: " Long as it's Two-Face."
Bruce Wayne: "Then it will happen this way: You make the kill, but your pain doesn't die with Harvey, it grows. So you run out into the night to find another face, and another, and another, until one terrible morning you wake up and realize that revenge has become your whole life. And you won't know why."
Dick Grayson: "You can't understand. Your family wasn't killed by a maniac."
Bruce Wayne: "Yes, they were. We're the same."

Alfred Pennyworth: "Master Bruce. Master Bruce. How are you, young man?"
Bruce Wayne: "You haven't called me that for a long time."
Alfred Pennyworth: "Old habits die hard."

Two-Face: "You're counting on the winged avenger to deliver you from evil, aren't you, my friend?"
Bank Guard: "Are you gonna kill me?"
Two-Face: "Maybe, maybe not. You could say we're of two minds on the subject."

Some of my favourite quotes from the film.

Moments like this show what this film COULD have been. Many great lines, idea, and even images at play here. It's just that the elements of the overall 'big picture' don't jive together. A better director could've produced a much more cohesive and compelling film, as we all know. Shumacher was too concerned with his aesthetic flares and he let the important things (like the red book) fall to the wayside.

 

[Kane52630]

I bought the official comic adaptation for Batman Forever. It should be here any day now, has anyone read it?

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Not in ages but I remember having it as a kid and its no loger part of my collection, id like to get a new copy.

 

[Two-Face]

Not in ages but I remember having it as a kid and its no loger part of my collection, id like to get a new copy.

I used to have it as well, all four adapations

 

[American_Hobo]

I love Val Kilmer as Batman.
Very underrated Batman in my opinion.

 

[Elevator Man]

I bought the official comic adaptation for Batman Forever. It should be here any day now, has anyone read it?

I own it and have read it. Mine has different cover art though.

 

[kewlmatto]

I bought the official comic adaptation for Batman Forever. It should be here any day now, has anyone read it?

This was the only one I never bought but I remember borrowing it from the council library a few times.

Couldn't find my old copies of the others so I just ordered the TPB collecting all the films.

The Schumacher films fare better on the page than on the screen.

 

[zeo5]

I bought the official comic adaptation for Batman Forever. It should be here any day now, has anyone read it?

I have the Russian version of this comic... , and i very liked it!

 

[The Guard]

The novelization was pretty good, too.

 

[TheWatcher]

I like the comic adaptation.

In the movie, the first minute of Two Face is awesome. The rest is bloody awful.