The Official Batman Returns Thread

[Red Mask]

There's a lot more besides that, there's plenty of verbal sexual innuendo.

I was just impressed with the overall cleverness of the dialogue. It was more poetic than the mundance stuff we hear in Batman Begins. Sexual innuendo I can get from Austin Powers.

"You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask".

"My name is not Oswald, my name is Penguin! I am not a human being! I am an animal!"

"It's the so-called 'normal' guys who let you down. Sickos never scare me. At least they're commited."

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I was just impressed with the overall cleverness of the dialogue. It was more poetic than the mundance stuff we hear in Batman Begins. Sexual innuendo I can get from Austin Powers.

"You're just jealous because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask".

"My name is not Oswald, my name is Penguin! I am not a human being! I am an animal!"

"It's the so-called 'normal' guys who let you down. Sickos never scare me. At least they're commited."

True, but my point was the verbal sexual innuendo was put in there for the adults. Kids may pick up on the other subtext, but the adults should be the only ones getting lines like "Just the ***** I've been looking for!"

 

[Cain]

True, but my point was the verbal sexual innuendo was put in there for the adults. Kids may pick up on the other subtext, but the adults should be the only ones getting lines like "Just the ***** I've been looking for!"

I got that line just fine when it was in theatres. Then again I had an unconvential childhood compared to most. The symbolism I was referring too though delved deeper than just sexual though. There are biblical symbolisms in this film amongst many others.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

I think sometimes people search too deeply for things. Symbols can be found in anything if you look hard enough, and can be interpreted differently by many people.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

I got that line just fine when it was in theatres. Then again I had an unconvential childhood compared to most. The symbolism I was referring too though delved deeper than just sexual though. There are biblical symbolisms in this film amongst many others.

Hell, the whole opening credit sequence was an allusion to Moses.

There was a great thread on the BOF forum about all the symbolism in BR. I'll have to find it and put some on here.

 

[Cain]

I think sometimes people search too deeply for things. Symbols can be found in anything if you look hard enough, and can be interpreted differently by many people.

Except that with Batman Returns like 80% of Tim Burton's work the symbolism is deliberate and another way to help further the narrative since he relies on visuals a lot more than anything else.

Hell, the whole opening credit sequence was an allusion to Moses.

There was a great thread on the BOF forum about all the symbolism in BR. I'll have to find it and put some on here.

I'm surprised there isn't a thread like that on here already.

 

[Spider-Bat]

Batman Returns is such an incredible movie. I never heard anyone complain about it scaring children till I came on here. When I saw it many times it didn't bother any kids, they loved.

I was twelve at the time, I remember calling my best friend first thing after getting up and making plans to see the first show. We got there somewhat early but the line had already started, but we had a pretty good place in line. Maybe 15 minutes after we got there the line was into the parking lot and they had to tell people to come back for the next one, and that they couldn't be in the parking lot like that.

I was so happy to be there, I couldn't wait to see my favorite hero on the big screen again. I went every weekend to see Batman. And I saw this one every chance I got also.

I had a ton of the toys. The Batmobile, Bruce, a few different Batmans, including the one where his wings popped up, Catwoman, Penguin, and a 2 of his penguins with the missile packs.

I had all of the trading cards. I even had the cereal, which wasn't bad, it was chocolate with marshmallows.t:

The only thing I didn't see that I wanted to was the classic Grandfather Clock entrance, I'm still waiting to see that in a Bat-film. I'm not holding my breath for Nolan to do anything right.

All I know is Burton's Batman films are the best!!!

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I think sometimes people search too deeply for things. Symbols can be found in anything if you look hard enough, and can be interpreted differently by many people.

You do realise film is a visual art and symbolism is a huge part of that? You do realise that?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Batman Returns is such an incredible movie. I never heard anyone complain about it scaring children till I came on here. When I saw it many times it didn't bother any kids, they loved.

Oh right. Clearly no kids were scared at all then, and we're all lying. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

You do realise film is a visual art and symbolism is a huge part of that? You do realise that?

I know that. I was just making a statement relating to the current discussion.

Originally Posted by Spider-Bat
Batman Returns is such an incredible movie. I never heard anyone complain about it scaring children till I came on here. When I saw it many times it didn't bother any kids, they loved.

Oh right. Clearly no kids were scared at all then, and we're all lying. Thanks for clearing that up.

He didnt say people were lying. He was just giving an observation based on his theatre experience. I went to see Returns 3 times in the theatre, and there were no upset kids in any of mine either. I did know about parent groups complaining tho. I think maybe they made it worse than what it actually was.


geez Kevin, quick on the trigger lately?

 

[Bat Attack]

I caught BR on Turner Classic Movies yesterday. That channel is so awesome because they don't cut their films for content or have commercial breaks.

 

[Bat Attack]

Batman Returns turns 15 years old in two weeks! wow.

 

[Catman]

Batman Returns turns 15 years old in two weeks! wow.

I feel old.

 

[mjbull23]

I can't believe it's been 15 years already. What a great movie.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

I'm surprised there isn't a thread like that on here already.

I'll start adding some relating to the movie here:

First, all three of the villians tap into a different part of Bruce Wayne, becoming twisted versions of himself.

Penguin represents the obsessed child. Both were "abandoned" from their parents, albiet in different ways. Both of their actions and gadgets are determined by their childhood. Because Batman's parents died, he protects the city; because Oswald's parent's abandoned him, he wants to destroy the city. Also, you can compare Oswalds gadget umbrellas and giant duck car to Batman's gadgets and the Batmobile.

Max Shreck represents the "human." Much like Bruce goes out into the world of the day as a different person, so does Max. Bruce Wayne makes himself known with that name to the public as a common business man while secretly protecting it; Max Shreck makes does the same to the public while secretly destroying it.

Finally, Selina represents the revenge-seeker. Much like Batman sought revenge in the end of '89 for his parent's death, so does Selina want revenge for Shreck "murdering" her. Because of their loss, they both dressed up in strange costumes, each unleashing an animal power inside them like a totum. And like Batman did not get satasfaction for the death of The Joker, as shown by her looking up at the Bat-symbol in the costume, neither did she.

 

[fabman]

I'll start adding some relating to the movie here:

First, all three of the villians tap into a different part of Bruce Wayne, becoming twisted versions of himself.

Penguin represents the obsessed child. Both were "abandoned" from their parents, albiet in different ways. Both of their actions and gadgets are determined by their childhood. Because Batman's parents died, he protects the city; because Oswald's parent's abandoned him, he wants to destroy the city. Also, you can compare Oswalds gadget umbrellas and giant duck car to Batman's gadgets and the Batmobile.

Max Shreck represents the "human." Much like Bruce goes out into the world of the day as a different person, so does Max. Bruce Wayne makes himself known with that name to the public as a common business man while secretly protecting it; Max Shreck makes does the same to the public while secretly destroying it.

Finally, Selina represents the revenge-seeker. Much like Batman sought revenge in the end of '89 for his parent's death, so does Selina want revenge for Shreck "murdering" her. Because of their loss, they both dressed up in strange costumes, each unleashing an animal power inside them like a totum. And like Batman did not get satasfaction for the death of The Joker, as shown by her looking up at the Bat-symbol in the costume, neither did she.

Yep, you def got it! I would've loved to see how the story would've continued, it's a shame Tim Burton got fired. What I would've loved to see in 'Batman 3' or 'Batman Forever' is the consequences of what happened in 'Batman Returns.'

 

[raleagh]

also max shrek represents a vampire.

the actor max shrek played the first screen incarnation of dracula.

in BR max shrek wants to suck the life from the city using his power station.

 

[ab38416]

edit

 

[mjbull23]

I'll start adding some relating to the movie here:

First, all three of the villians tap into a different part of Bruce Wayne, becoming twisted versions of himself.

Penguin represents the obsessed child. Both were "abandoned" from their parents, albiet in different ways. Both of their actions and gadgets are determined by their childhood. Because Batman's parents died, he protects the city; because Oswald's parent's abandoned him, he wants to destroy the city. Also, you can compare Oswalds gadget umbrellas and giant duck car to Batman's gadgets and the Batmobile.

Max Shreck represents the "human." Much like Bruce goes out into the world of the day as a different person, so does Max. Bruce Wayne makes himself known with that name to the public as a common business man while secretly protecting it; Max Shreck makes does the same to the public while secretly destroying it.

Finally, Selina represents the revenge-seeker. Much like Batman sought revenge in the end of '89 for his parent's death, so does Selina want revenge for Shreck "murdering" her. Because of their loss, they both dressed up in strange costumes, each unleashing an animal power inside them like a totum. And like Batman did not get satasfaction for the death of The Joker, as shown by her looking up at the Bat-symbol in the costume, neither did she.

Great post. Very illuminating! I was on to the entire Selina revenge persona and how it ties back to Bruce.... but i never stopped to consider Schreck as representing the human side of Bruce's personality..

 

[ab38416]

edit

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

Batman Forever does build on the climax of Batman Returns & it completes the character arc Burton had crafted for Bruce Wayne. They didn't just abandon Burton's ideas. He was involved in pre-production & he even met with the writers several times to give his input. Batman Forever is about Bruce Wayne's redemption. The rediscovery of why he really became Batman, which leads to the reconciliation of his split personality. The whole "I am both Batman & Bruce Wayne not because I have to be but because I choose to be" comes from Burton.

This is a big misconception that has been debated several times here on the boards. Burton was not involved In Forever. They kept his name in the credits as a producer but had no real involvment in the film at all. He met with Schumacher ONCE so that Joel can give his take on how he wanted to do the character, he gave him the whole duality speech and Tim said "thats it. You got it". That was that, Tim basically stepped away. The only reason that even happened was because WB and Joel wanted "professional courtesy" towards Tim. WB made it very clear that they didnt want Burton involved in the project. They even told Joel to make this his own and do it his way. Burton did have a 3rd movie in mind, but nothing from Burton has ever been officialy revealed as to details. Just hearsay from others who may have worked with Tim during the duration of his 2 films, or the couple little things he may have blurbed out during interviews or his recent commentaries. Keaton was actually involved longer in Forever than Burton was, but he had no desire to go in the direction Schumacher was taking it and walked away. This rihgt there should be a hint that there is a big difference in what Burton wanted to do and what WB/Schumacher wanted to do because Keaton and Burton both were on the same page as to this franchises direction and feel. The whole duality thing wasnt Burtons sole idea, thats one of the basic premises of Batman, you cant just link one directors movie to anothers just because they keep some of the same basic elements of a character.

 

[Bat Attack]

This is a big misconception that has been debated several times here on the boards. Burton was not involved In Forever. They kept his name in the credits as a producer but had no real involvment in the film at all. He met with Schumacher ONCE so that Joel can give his take on how he wanted to do the character, he gave him the whole duality speech and Tim said "thats it. You got it". That was that, Tim basically stepped away. The only reason that even happened was because WB and Joel wanted "professional courtesy" towards Tim. WB made it very clear that they didnt want Burton involved in the project. They even told Joel to make this his own and do it his way. Burton did have a 3rd movie in mind, but nothing from Burton has ever been officialy revealed as to details. Just hearsay from others who may have worked with Tim during the duration of his 2 films, or the couple little things he may have blurbed out during interviews or his recent commentaries. Keaton was actually involved longer in Forever than Burton was, but he had no desire to go in the direction Schumacher was taking it and walked away. This rihgt there should be a hint that there is a big difference in what Burton wanted to do and what WB/Schumacher wanted to do because Keaton and Burton both were on the same page as to this franchises direction and feel. The whole duality thing wasnt Burtons sole idea, thats one of the basic premises of Batman, you cant just link one directors movie to anothers just because they keep some of the same basic elements of a character.

well said,

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Well, I think it was Catman here that watched a TV special on Tim Burton and he said that Burton said he wrote a short treatment for BF, which was used as a basis by the Batchelors.

Dunno if it's true or not, but it would make sense, given how Burton was supposedly involved in some capacity to BF, which was decent, as opposed to B&R, where there was no Burton, and it sucked.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

Yeh, it could be true. I wish it was online somewhere, I love watching stuff that has Burtons Batman info. Anyway, it could be possible Burton did have something outlined, but most treatments are only maybe 10 pages long at best, to give the studio an idea of what the basic premise of a film is. Even if some plot points were Burtons idea, it would have played so much differently with him directing it than with Schumaher. They have 2 such differenting styles of story telling when it comes to the Batman universe, in all aspects, that I find it hard to swallow that there is any link to their movies.

 

[Cain]

Yeh, it could be true. I wish it was online somewhere, I love watching stuff that has Burtons Batman info. Anyway, it could be possible Burton did have something outlined, but most treatments are only maybe 10 pages long at best, to give the studio an idea of what the basic premise of a film is. Even if some plot points were Burtons idea, it would have played so much differently with him directing it than with Schumaher. They have 2 such differenting styles of story telling when it comes to the Batman universe, in all aspects, that I find it hard to swallow that there is any link to their movies.

I agree with this but at the same time you can't deny whether intentional or not that the first 3 movies work very well as a trilogy in terms of Bruce/Batman's arc.

You could see how "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens was a huge influence on this film. Batman, Penguin & Catwoman represent the "ghosts" our Scrooge like character (Shreck) encounters. Only difference is they're all aspects of the same person as has been already mentioned. This movie is the psychological breakdown of Bruce Wayne in a sense and the next one represents the pieces finally being put together.