The Official Batman Returns Thread

[mystory64]

We were talking about Batman Returns, which has absolutely nothing to do with the movie called Catwoman.

Uh I think I've referenced Returns enough to make a valid point, the Catwoman movie ref was just for fun, dont make it out to be any more than that. Care to actually touch on any of my points or is that it?

ahem *insert sardonic smiley face here*

 

[Sandman138]

Alright I gotta chime in here, visually hell ya, I totally agree, but character wise... uh, no I think not. A Secretary who gets reborn by cats biting her and then gains superpowers and turns to a life of crime? Not to mention she whoops up on Batman... uh say it again... BATMAN. To quote the film... Catwoman: "How could you? I'm a WOMAN"... and the Bats responds "I'm sorry..."... oh get outta here. It bothered me when I was 13 and it bothers me now.

From wikipidia: In Batman #62, it is revealed that Catwoman (after a blow to the head jogged her memory) is an amnesiac flight attendant who had turned to crime after suffering a prior blow to the head during a plane crash she survived.

This is the Catwoman that they adapted in Returns, and they stayed pretty true to the basic idea: a timid woman in a sexist job suffers a near death experience, snaps, and lets loose a torrent of pent up sexuality and aggression as a costumed criminal.

I think most people mistake Returns' "darkness' with German Expressionism, Oh wow... check this out, I just now took a quick Google to get the exact definition of German Expressionism and look what I found... German Expressionist Film Today

Ambitious adaptations of the style are depicted throughout the contemporary filmography of director Tim Burton. His 1992 film Batman Returns is often cited as a modern attempt to capture the essence of German Expressionism. The angular building designs and severe-looking city squares of Gotham City evoke the loom and menace present in Lang’s Metropolis. One may even notice the link between the evil character of Max Shreck portrayed by Christopher Walken, and Nosferatu's star, Max Schrek.

Burton's influences are most obvious through his fairy tale suburban landscape in Edward Scissorhands . The appearance of the titular Edward Scissorhands none too accidentally reflects the look of Caligari's somnambulist servant. Burton casts a kind of unease in his candy-colored suburb, where the tension is visually unmasked through Edward and his gothic castle perched above the houses. Burton subverts the Caligari nightmare with his own narrative branding, casting the garish “somnambulist” as the hero, and the villagers as the villains.

The familiar look of Caligari's main character can also be seen in the movie "The Crow". With the tight, black outfit, white makeup, and darkened eyes, Brandon Lee's character is obviously a close relative to Burton's film Edward Scissorhands.

If Catwoman had lit Batman on fire and tossed him out a window that would be dark, but Burton's films have a more romatic feel to them, I like them, (except penguin commandos... why corrupt penguins so?) I just want Nolans Catwoman (if it ever happens) to reflect the comic version more than the cat-powered unhappy secretary of Returns...

btw, Michelle Pfeiffer is HOT.

German Expressionist films were dark and macabre tales of madness and despair inevitably crushing the protaganists and bringing them down with the world around them. Like existentialism, German Expressionism was born out of the angst and hopelessness of the first World War, and the films reflected the idea that the world was cruel and the people who were forced to see the world for what it truely was would inevitably lose themselves to madness and despair.

As for Returns not being dark, what is romantic about kidnapping sleeping children and drowning them in industrial waste?

 

[mystory64]

Exactly.

I think Burton improved Catwoman and the Penguin. I think he elevated those characters. And then, of course, Pfeiffer and DeVito were both superb.

I would agree, tho I'm still stuck on Penguin... I like the monster movie take on the characters, in keeping with a fantasy theme it makes sense. I LOVE the set design per the Zoo, thats a cool base of operations for a comic book villain. That all being said, I still wish Selina had been a jewel thief, or animal activist chick rather than the secretary take. Ever read the San Hamm script for Returns?, Catwoman and Penguin teamed up to find a hidden lost treasure in Gotham City. Turns out it's in the Batcave, there was a whole cool twist as to why it's there, I really wish we would have gotten to see some of that in the film, but its neither here nor there. Love the music in Returns the most, especially Penguins march music... that still gives me the goosebumps...

 

[Superwoman Prime]

The secretary had the physical capability. She never exploited it while on her job, because she was obviously anxious, self-conscious and scatter-brained.

 

[mystory64]

From wikipidia: In Batman #62, it is revealed that Catwoman (after a blow to the head jogged her memory) is an amnesiac flight attendant who had turned to crime after suffering a prior blow to the head during a plane crash she survived.

This is the Catwoman that they adapted in Returns, and they stayed pretty true to the basic idea: a timid woman in a sexist job suffers a near death experience, snaps, and lets loose a torrent of pent up sexuality and aggression as a costumed criminal.



German Expressionist films were dark and macabre tales of madness and despair inevitably crushing the protaganists and bringing them down with the world around them. Like existentialism, German Expressionism was born out of the angst and hopelessness of the first World War, and the films reflected the idea that the world was cruel and the people who were forced to see the world for what it truely was would inevitably lose themselves to madness and despair.

As for Returns not being dark, what is romantic about kidnapping sleeping children and drowning them in industrial waste?

Yeah and think everyone here agrees that Returns fits your description nicely, Penguins story definitely sees that the world as a cruel place and each of the main characters loses themselves to madness. The Penguin killing children is him losing himself to madness, giving in to the cruelty of the world. His parents killed him, threw him away, he tried to play the game and be a part of society but fails and loses it. I didn't say it wasn't dark, I was merely trying to elaborate on how it's darkness is different from the Nolan film(s). When I say romantic, I'm talking in the Edward Scissorhands, evil monster, Frankenstein, Poe-esque realm dark fantasy kind of way, not wine and roses man.

Returns is most definitely dark and macabre, but it plays very much like a fairy tale right from the very beginning till the end. As for the Selina bit, sure I get her becoming evil, but no way could she take on Bruce who has spent a life time of training, I just dont buy that. Plane crash, being thrown out a building or whatever...

Useless example number one: Take Britney Spears in all her angst right now and throw her in the ring with Chuck Liddell... who do you think wins? t:

 

[Kevin Roegele]

As for the Selina bit, sure I get her becoming evil, but no way could she take on Bruce who has spent a life time of training, I just dont buy that. Plane crash, being thrown out a building or whatever...

Useless example number one: Take Britney Spears in all her angst right now and throw her in the ring with Chuck Liddell... who do you think wins? t:

Yeah, but it's not Britney and Liddell, it's Pfieffer and Keaton, and it works within the context of the movie. And where exactly does it say in Burton's movies that Batman has had a lifetime of training? It doesn't.

 

[mystory64]

Yeah, but it's not Britney and Liddell, it's Pfieffer and Keaton, and it works within the context of the movie. And where exactly does it say in Burton's movies that Batman has had a lifetime of training? It doesn't.

Uh okay, it's Batman man, I think it's safe to infer he's had alot of training to do the job, even if it's not directly mentioned in the Burton movies. As for the context, it's why I felt the cats gave her some kind of special powers or something, it's the only way I can rationalize her being able to fight with Batman out of nowhere. Still, I feel it's more a suspension of disbelief deal, it happens so you have to deal with it. Just like how Penguins gang just happens to have the blueprints of the Batmobile, or can turn real penguins in to the equivalent of a droid army. All that aside, I can disagree with that bit of story and still enjoy the film, don't think I'm saying it wasn't a cool flick, I do...

However, I still look forward to more interpretations of both those characters.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Uh okay, it's Batman man, I think it's safe to infer he's had alot of training to do the job, even if it's not directly mentioned in the Burton movies. As for the context, it's why I felt the cats gave her some kind of special powers or something, it's the only way I can rationalize her being able to fight with Batman out of nowhere.

I don't think it's as much a suspension of disbelief as simply not important. In a more rational and logical version of Batman, i.e. Nolan's, it would all be explained exactly how old Selina Kyle was when she began kickboxing, which gym she went to, and so on. Such is Nolan's style.

Burton himself doesn't care about such things. He never bothers to tell us why Batman is so good at kicking ass, because he knows it's not important. As you yourself stated, "It's Batman, man". Same with Catwoman.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I don't think it's as much a suspension of disbelief as simply not important. In a more rational and logical version of Batman, i.e. Nolan's, it would all be explained exactly how old Selina Kyle was when she began kickboxing, which gym she went to, and so on. Such is Nolan's style.

Burton himself doesn't care about such things. He never bothers to tell us why Batman is so good at kicking ass, because he knows it's not important. As you yourself stated, "It's Batman, man". Same with Catwoman.

Exactly.

And it's not that Burton utterly ignores the 'how' ... a hint was dropped in Batman 1989 that Bruce Wayne had been in Japan. So we fill in the blanks with imagination, since the finer details of the 'how' aren't too important to the movie itself. Batman is Batman, he has these fighting abilities, perhaps gaining some/most while training in Japan ... and we sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

[Bat Attack]

Happy 15th Anniversary Batman Returns!

 

[Superwoman Prime]

A decade and a half of existance, and still a great movie. That means it's classic.

 

[mystory64]

And where exactly does it say in Burton's movies that Batman has had a lifetime of training? It doesn't....He never bothers to tell us why Batman is so good at kicking ass, because he knows it's not important.

Exactly. Batman is Batman, he has these fighting abilities, perhaps gaining some/most while training in Japan ... and we sit back and enjoy the ride.

Yeah thats what I've been saying you're both changing the discussion, my point was that Batman CAN fight, he's a trained professional, I already mentioned that it was INFERRED in the Burton films not actually shown, and that all being said, NO WAY could a disgruntled secretary whoop ass on Batman. She... IMO btw.... MUST have gotten some kind of supernatural power when she was resurrected, thats all I've been saying.

You've both shunted that idea to no end, so just to be clear, I LIKE THE MOVIE, it's a dark film that leans heavily on German Expressionism, it plays like a dark fantasy much in the vein of Edward Scissorhands, and Catwoman has supernatural strength as there is no way she could lay a hand on a trained fighter such as Batman.

Wheew.... okay, thanx.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Yeah thats what I've been saying you're both changing the discussion, my point was that Batman CAN fight, he's a trained professional, I already mentioned that it was INFERRED in the Burton films not actually shown, and that all being said, NO WAY could a disgruntled secretary whoop ass on Batman. She... IMO btw.... MUST have gotten some kind of supernatural power when she was resurrected, thats all I've been saying.

You've both shunted that idea to no end, so just to be clear, I LIKE THE MOVIE, it's a dark film that leans heavily on German Expressionism, it plays like a dark fantasy much in the vein of Edward Scissorhands, and Catwoman has supernatural strength as there is no way she could lay a hand on a trained fighter such as Batman.

Wheew.... okay, thanx.

If you go back and read my post, we're not changing the discussion. It all relates. What I said was that, just as Burton feels no real need to explain Batman's physical prowess (because the audience already knows and expects Batman to be a great fighter), the same applies to Catwoman. You might very well assume that Selina is given some kind of ass-kicking powers by the cats, but that's not stated anywhere, and is ultimately not important. She kicks ass because she's Catwoman. Ipso facto.

It's just like the Penguin's crazy trick umbrellas (who cares where they come from? It's the Penguin). Or the Batmobile. Burton understands that there is no need to explain it or try and sell it to the audience because we love the Batmobile, we expect to see it and we're already willing to suspend disbelief for it. And it's just more dramatic and imposing if this huge, weird, creepy black car appears from nowhere.

 

[Rockbottom]

This maybe off topic from what your all currently talking about but i have to say it lol, something that i always notice from Returns is at the end when Bruce takes his mask off, you can see Keatons make up disappear in one shot of Bruce/Batman to the next, its really noticible lol, I dont know why they didnt have Bruce tear the mask off from the back, then no one would be able to see it. Anyone else noticed this?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

This maybe off topic from what your all currently talking about but i have to say it lol, something that i always notice from Returns is at the end when Bruce takes his mask off, you can see Keatons make up disappear in one shot of Bruce/Batman to the next, its really noticible lol, I dont know why they didnt have Bruce tear the mask off from the back, then no one would be able to see it. Anyone else noticed this?

Oh yeah, we've noticed that. It's a weird editing choice, one I'm tempted to correct myself on YouTube....

 

[Rockbottom]

I can understand that they had to do it, but I dont see why it couldnt of happened from a different angle or something. Its bugged me ever since i first noticed it lol.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I can understand that they had to do it, but I dont see why it couldnt of happened from a different angle or something. Its bugged me ever since i first noticed it lol.

Exactly. Or just go straight to the part of the shot where he's tearing off his mask, so Batman's hand obscures his eyes and we can't see the lack of make-up.

 

[Rockbottom]

I agree totally.

 

[Bat Attack]

Or they could have shot it from behind...?

 

[mystory64]

Well, I think either way he would have ended up having "raccoon" eyes during his talk with Catwoman, so I guess no make-up would have been better than that.

 

[GoogleMe94]

yeah im glad they didnt do the "racoon" eyes cuz that would have been so damn lame, and ruin that brilliant scene. very poignant.

you know, a few years ago back when i was in about 10th/11th grade, i wasnt so crazy about this batman film, or batman in general. this was of course before Begins came out, and i got back into batman again. so one day around this time i decided to watch both Returns since it had been a while since i watched it and i remember it being kinda creepy and scary. so i watched it, expecting nothing much to happen, but damn, i walked away really effected by this film. it was so....deep! the characters were awsome and tragic, the atmosphere, the acting, it was all just done so well. the end scene for me is just breataking. i just remember thinking afterwards "why didnt burton make a 3rd one? this was brilliant!". the sharp, witty dark dialogue was great, and it was very emotional and entertaining all at the same time. i really felt for all the characters, and after i watched this film i always looked at the comics versions as somewhat lame and 2 dimensional. even Begins, which was pretty good, didnt effect me in the same way that Returns did. Returns was truly dark, and when i saw Begins, i thought it reminded me more of the first Spiderman, for some odd reason.

anyway, faithful or not so faithful, this is a brilliant, and underrated batman film. glad to see other ppl who see it for the masterpiece it is. i actually like it better then B89, but personally i think they are both on par with each other. michelle pfieffer stole the show in this one, but all 3 of them were great, but i loved her character the most. so beautiful, so tragic, so badass! keaton and her had GREAT chemistry, and the best love interest in all the batman films so far.

oh btw, that siouxie and he banshees video and song are just great. its romantic in a goth/new age kind of way, kinda hypnotic and it fit that whole scene very well. and cmon, siouxie is pretty hot herself! i wish elfman would release extended versions of both his batman albums, cuz i love elfmans little moments he throws in there. like at the exact moment when bruce realizes selinda is catwoman, and they pull back, elfmans music right at that moment is just so beautiful.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

There are so many great scenes in Returns. The whole ending with Bruce and Alfred driving up until we see the symbol and Catwomans head pop up is fantastic. I also believe that the confrontation between Bats and Penguin during the Circus Gang attacks is one of the best hero/villain scenes ever.

 

[Jack O Lantern]

If Catwoman had lit Batman on fire and tossed him out a window that would be dark, but Burton's films have a more romatic feel to them, I like them, (except penguin commandos... why corrupt penguins so?) I just want Nolans Catwoman (if it ever happens) to reflect the comic version more than the cat-powered unhappy secretary of Returns...

btw, Michelle Pfeiffer is HOT.

What's dark about that? Darkness is aboutr consequences more than actions, setting a guy on fire is dark if we see that the incident has an emotional effect on that character, but, as in the case of Batman Begins, three days later he is OK again then that's not dark, that's just a guy on fire.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

What's dark about that? Darkness is aboutr consequences more than actions, setting a guy on fire is dark if we see that the incident has an emotional effect on that character, but, as in the case of Batman Begins, three days later he is OK again then that's not dark, that's just a guy on fire.

True.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Dark is Mr and Mrs Cobblepott throwing their son into a sewer - at Christmas.