The Official Batman Returns Thread

[TheBatman1]

If I was a casting director for Batman Returns, I would have taken a huge risk and cast Joan Jett as Catwoman. Joan has that way about her which makes me believe that she could have pulled off the character. Call me crazy but I think it would have worked.

 

[returntovoid]

LOL! Even when she's getting shot repeatedly with a gun, and keeps on coming at you like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers?

I thought the exact same thing when you see Batman getting shot in the Batman 89 rooftop scene, that part was creepy and looked out of a horror flick.

She probably had a Kevlar under her suit.

That's probably it, it's actually lifted off of a 1946 Batman comic.

Selina was brought back from death by cats. Why would cats chewing her fingers and running all over her revive her, unless they somehow used some kind of their life force or something like that to bring her back.

The licking woke her up from unconsciousness.

One thing happens a lot in films, a dog licks the asleep owner and he wakes up due to the licking.

She also suddenly became remarkably agile and a brilliant fighter without any training.

Well, the film is called Batman Returns not Catwoman Begins, they can't dwell on every single detail since they have to focus on other things as well not just one character that's not the protagonist, so she probably took training but they never show that in detail.

Or maybe, she was a agile person that had a accident then had amnesia, then become secretary and then another accident via her boss pushing her out the window that led her back to have the brain of the agile person. I don't mean to say that literally but just a guess considering the character's origin in the film is inspired by the amnesiac air-hostess origin from Batman #62 (1950).

Right. But I cannot deny her getting shot FOUR times at close range and just walking it off like it was nothing.

In Batman #35 (1946) "Nine Lives Has the Cat", Catwoman goes to hire new thugs but they say no because they're not impressed with the fact that Batman has defeated her many times nor are they scared/take her seriously then she thinks of something to scare them with due to knowing that Batman makes a impact on thugs through intimidation (it's never shown how she prepares the trick) but on the next day, the annoyed thug shoots at her (when she comes to see the thugs again) but she doesn't die and she claims that she has nine lives.

It's pretty obvious that Kevlar armor was used in that issue.

If you're not convinced then I can post the two pages of this issue.

She was pale white, no breath was seen coming from her mouth in the cold, like it was just when she hit the ground etc.

What do you think happened to her?

There was just a cut/bruise on the forehead, no sign of broken body and no pool of blood.

As for, pale white??? Bruce Wayne looked pale white when the Bat-Signal light lit up on his face in the Wayne Manor study scene where he just broods, it's all about lighting or Tim Burton's deliberate visual style.

 

[returntovoid]

If I was a casting director for Batman Returns, I would have taken a huge risk and cast Joan Jett as Catwoman. Joan has that way about her which makes me believe that she could have pulled off the character. Call me crazy but I think it would have worked.

Don't get me wrong, the hair color might have been comic-accurate but the acting would have been lackluster compared to how the part was acted out in the film. Even though, Batman Returns Catwoman was blonde and blue eyes instead of green, the character still resembled her comic counterpart a lot. A wig and lenses would have solved something for the sake of comic-accuracy but nevermind if a adaptation is not 100% faithful to the source material.

 

[Two-Face]

Michelle P. did a fine job as Selina/Catwoman yeah it was Burton version not comic book one.

 

[The Joker]

I thought the exact same thing when you see Batman getting shot in the Batman 89 rooftop scene, that part was creepy and looked out of a horror flick.

Batman wears armour. Catwoman wears an old leather jacket she turned into a Cat suit t:

The licking woke her up from unconsciousness.

Wow, it's a wonder paramedics don't bring cats with them when they tend to unconscious people. Especially ones unconscious from high falls

One thing happens a lot in films, a dog licks the asleep owner and he wakes up due to the licking.

Was the asleep owner thrown out of the top window of a building?

Well, the film is called Batman Returns not Catwoman Begins, they can't dwell on every single detail since they have to focus on other things as well not just one character that's not the protagonist, so she probably took training but they never show that in detail.

LOL! Pull the other, it's got bells on it. From the second she comes home after being revived she starts acting like cat, gulping down the carton of milk.

Or maybe, she was a agile person that had a accident then had amnesia, then become secretary and then another accident via her boss pushing her out the window that led her back to have the brain of the agile person.

Pass me some of that weed you're smoking

I don't mean to say that literally but just a guess considering the character's origin in the film is inspired by the amnesiac air-hostess origin from Batman #62 (1950).

You can only judge the movie by what was shown in the movie. This is a Tim Burton movie. There was no specific origin from the comics used for either Catwoman or the Penguin.

Burton doesn't explain Catwoman's sudden athletic abilites because it's heavily implied she inherited it from the cats that brought her back to life. It's why she likes to slurp down milk like an animal, and lick her cat costume all over after it's been in cat litter

In Batman #35 (1946) "Nine Lives Has the Cat", Catwoman goes to hire new thugs but they say no because they're not impressed with the fact that Batman has defeated her many times nor are they scared/take her seriously then she thinks of something to scare them with due to knowing that Batman makes a impact on thugs through intimidation (it's never shown how she prepares the trick) but on the next day, the annoyed thug shoots at her (when she comes to see the thugs again) but she doesn't die and she claims that she has nine lives.

It's pretty obvious that Kevlar armor was used in that issue.

Of course kevlar armour was used. Comic Catwoman is human.

If you're not convinced then I can post the two pages of this issue.

Post away. What is it supposed to convince me of?

Can you post me some pics where Pfeiffer's Catwoman put kevlar under her costume? Then we'll be cookin' with gas.

There was just a cut/bruise on the forehead, no sign of broken body and no pool of blood.

There was none of that when Joker fell off the Gotham cathedral either in Batman '89, but he was deader than Jacob Marley, too.

As for, pale white??? Bruce Wayne looked pale white when the Bat-Signal light lit up on his face in the Wayne Manor study scene where he just broods, it's all about lighting or Tim Burton's deliberate visual style.

My god, man, are you for real with these points you're making? Bruce was sitting in a dark room, and big white light shone on his face. Of course he looked pale in that light!!!

LOL!

 

[returntovoid]

There was no specific origin from the comics used for either Catwoman

Check this link out, surprisingly a lot is taken from the comics for the character.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

Can you post me some pics where Pfeiffer's Catwoman put kevlar under her costume?

Where was she shown putting kevlar under her costume in Batman #35??? They just skip from the thought process of coming up with a unspecified trick to the thug shooting her and nothing happening.



I really don't want to argue but let's leave it at "it was left open to interpretation" as user Cain said few pages back.

 

[The Joker]

Check this link out, surprisingly a lot is taken from the comics for the character.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

Oh yes, I've seen that before. But there's nothing there that suggests the comic book Catwoman could survive the fatal attacks Pfeiffer's Catwoman sustained. She brushed all of them off like they were nothing.

Why? She had nine lives, as was specified in the movie. Not kevlar. Absolutely no evidence to support it.

Where was she shown putting kevlar under her costume in Batman #35??? They just skip from the thought process of coming up with a unspecified trick to the thug shooting her and nothing happening.

So what you're saying is you've got nothing then?

I really don't want to argue but let's leave it at "it was left open to interpretation" as user Cain said few pages back.

Fair enough.

I'm not criticizing Burton's Catwoman. She was great. I loved her. But she had superhuman abilities that she inherited from the cats the revived her. No question.

And I'm not convinced she had amnesia either. Otherwise why did she start a revenge vendetta against Shreck? I think she was trying to make him squirm. She looks like she's enjoying herself when she shows up in his office at the Bruce Wayne meeting.

 

[union_jak]

Did you miss the several canopies that broke her fall, not to mention the snow she landed on? It wasn't exactly subtle. She did not die. She was not 'resurrected by cats' and she wasn't a zombie.

Also, what's to say Selina wasn't already an active, fit person to begin with. There was a purpose to that answer machine message "Guess I should've let him win that last racquetball game" and it wasn't soley to prove she was a failure with guys.

 

[The Joker]

Did you miss the several canopies that broke her fall, not to mention the snow she landed on? It wasn't exactly subtle. She did not die. She was not 'resurrected by cats' and she wasn't a zombie.

Riiiiiight, so her suddenly acting like a cat, gulping down milk, giving herself "a bath" by licking herself all over, and inheriting Jason Voorhees' knack for surviving death was just a coincidence?

Maybe she got that from racquet ball, too? Btw, I never called her a zombie. Zombie's are mindless. Catwoman was not.

Also, what's to say Selina wasn't already an active, fit person to begin with. There was a purpose to that answer machine message "Guess I should've let him win that last racquetball game" and it wasn't soley to prove she was a failure with guys.

Oh please!

Racquet ball made her a physical match for Batman? Racquet ball gave her the ability to do amazing back flips? Racquet ball made her able to scale buildings in mere seconds? Racquet ball made her a genius with a whip? Racquet ball gave her the ability to shake off four gun shots at close range? And don't even try and give me the kevlar argument, either

Batman wears armor, and one shot from Schreck's gun from a further distance put him on the ground for several minutes. Catwoman was barely phased by 4 consecutive shots at closer range. She had supernatural abilites from being revived by the cats.

I don't know why you even try and refute it. Read any description of the character, and they'll tell you she had supernatural ability. One of many examples: http://catwomanfan.com/en/film/1992/index.php

It's not a criticism either. So what if it was different to the comics? It was still cool as hell.

 

[returntovoid]

Riiiiiight, so her suddenly acting like a cat, gulping down milk, giving herself "a bath" by licking herself all over

Probably was delusional that she's a cat since she was not exactly sane.

But what about Batman acting like a bat, stealthily attacking criminals from the shadows by hanging up-side down in Batman Begins, Gliding in both Batman Returns and Batman Begins, hanging up-side in the middle of night as Bruce Wayne in the bedroom and flapping his cape behind two goons, both of these in Batman '89???

I don't know why you even try and refute it. Read any description of the character, and they'll tell you she had supernatural ability. One of many examples: http://catwomanfan.com/en/film/1992/index.php

People keep misunderstanding it as supernatural and they took it literally especially when film critics thought the same.

Has Tim Burton stated anywhere that it's supernatural??? Probably not since he obviously left it open for interpretation.

 

[The Joker]

Probably was delusional that she's a cat since she was not exactly sane.

She's not delusional that she's a cat, she just inherits cat like tendencies from being revived by them.

If she thought she was a cat, then she'd be pooping in a litter box, and down on all fours.

But what about Batman acting like a bat, stealthily attacking criminals from the shadows by hanging up-side down in Batman Begins, Gliding in both Batman Returns and Batman Begins, hanging up-side in the middle of night as Bruce Wayne in the bedroom and flapping his cape behind two goons, both of these in Batman '89???

That's Bruce Wayne adopting his persona to frighten the criminals of Gotham into thinking he's a giant bat, which they did. He doesn't actually think he's a bat. Nobody's going to be frightened of Selina slurping down milk and licking herself.

In fact, they'd probably be turned on by it The reaction of the Mall security guards when they first saw her was "I don't know whether to open fire or fall in love hahahahaha".

People keep misunderstanding it as supernatural and they took it literally especially when film critics thought the same.

Has Tim Burton stated anywhere that it's supernatural??? Probably not since he obviously left it open for interpretation.

Nobody's misunderstanding anything, except for you and a couple of other people who are blatantly ignoring the facts of the movie with wild far fetched theories that have no basis.

And don't even pull that "Did Burton state that" rubbish on me after the baseless theories you've been throwing out here. Burton did state she was supernatural....in the movie, when he showed her brushing off death countless times. When she blatantly states she keeps surviving being killed because she has 9 lives.

 

[returntovoid]

Nobody's misunderstanding anything, except for you and a couple of other people who are blatantly ignoring the facts of the movie with wild far fetched theories that have no basis.

Well, I didn't come with these theories.

Users, theMan-Bat, Cain and El Payaso brought this theory, I thought they had a good point about it.

When she blatantly states she keeps surviving being killed because she has 9 lives.

Fictional characters are not always exactly honest about themselves as El Payaso said few pages back and you believed what she said??? I mean, did you believe The Joker's different stories about how he got his scars??? Or when someone calls him insane and he says "No, I'm not"???

 

[The Joker]

Well, I didn't come with these theories.

Users, theMan-Bat, Cain and El Payaso brought this theory, I thought they had a good point about it.

No man, none of them brought up theories about kevlar etc. Some nice ideas, but they don't hold up based on what was shown and said in the movie.

The biggest deal breaker is the finale. Four gunshots in a row, and she shakes them all off. Batman, with his fancy armor, is knocked down unconscious for several minutes by one bullet, but Catwoman brushes off four shots at close range, and then survives the electrical inferno.

She had supernatural ability. No question.

Fictional characters are not always exactly honest about themselves as El Payaso said few pages back and you believed what she said??? I mean, did you believe The Joker's different stories about how he got his scars??? Or when someone calls him insane and he says "No, I'm not"???

The Joker is not saying he has supernatural abilities. Whether he's lying about how he got his scars, or he simply remembers it differently, we'll never know because there's no evidence shown in the movie to contradict him.

Catwoman's claims for having nine lives, however, is blatantly true.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

There's no way in Bat-Hell Catwoman could have survived all those things had she not had multiple lives.

 

[El Payaso]

There's no way in Bat-Hell Catwoman could have survived all those things had she not had multiple lives.

Same for Batman and Joker in every incarnation so far.

 

[returntovoid]

This is by far better than BB and just as good as TDK IMO.

I think the other way around.

I think this is by far better than TDK and just as good as BB, B89.

 

[The Joker]

I agree with jaymes_e06. Returns is better than BB. Especially regarding villains, who were much more interesting than Scarecrow and Ra's.

 

[theMan-Bat]

She had supernatural ability. No question.

Catwoman's claims for having nine lives, however, is blatantly true.

No, Tim Burton explained in the Batman Returns commentary "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing, so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious, we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

 

[The Joker]

No, Tim Burton explained in the Batman Returns commentary "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing, so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious, we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

I'm sorry, but Tim is having a laugh if he said that. He has to be. What did he say during the scene when Catwoman's getting shot repeatedly at close range by Shreck with no effect?

Not supernatural.....yeah, she probably just has her Weetabix in the morning.

 

[returntovoid]

I agree with jaymes_e06. Returns is better than BB. Especially regarding villains, who were much more interesting than Scarecrow and Ra's.

In terms of villains, I can't really decide as I found the villains of both films to be interesting in their own way although Scarecrow was underused (I can accept that since he was the side-villain as Two-Face was also in TDK, both were underused nonetheless), but I was talking about the films overall and I found Batman Begins/Batman Returns to be on par plus better than TDK.

No, Tim Burton explained in the Batman Returns commentary "The ambiguous nature of the Catwoman. You start out when you see the creation with the cats coming around and it's not supernatural but we feed into the mythology of cats and 9 lives and all of that sort of thing, so in the same way with Batman, wanting to keep him sort of mysterious, we sort of treated the same idea with Catwoman a little bit and not come right out with it. It's not supernatural."

Thanks for posting this.

People really need to stop this misconception that it was supernatural, I partly blame critics for fire-starting this plus viewers just couldn't help but think it was supernatural.

 

[The Joker]

In terms of villains, I can't really decide as I found the villains of both films to be interesting in their own way although Scarecrow was underused (I can accept that since he was the side-villain as Two-Face was also in TDK, both were underused nonetheless)

The glaring difference being that Harvey Dent was a major character who's storyline culminated in being Two Face, wheras Scarecrow/Crane was jsut a side character with no back story.

but I was talking about the films overall and I found Batman Begins/Batman Returns to be on par plus better than TDK.

That's what I was talking about, too. Returns is better than Begins.

People really need to stop this misconception that it was supernatural

It's not a misconception. It's one thing to have Catwoman dropped from great heights several times without so much as a broken arm, leg, or a even a sprained ankle.

But to ask us to believe she shook off four gunshots at close range without a care in the world, and claim this character is not supernatural is an insult to the audience's intelligence. Not to mention have her survive the electrical inferno with Schreck, and appear again alive and well at the end.

I partly blame critics for fire-starting this plus viewers just couldn't help but think it was supernatural.

Critics had nothing to do with it. Anyone with two eyes in their head saw she was supernatural. For example, this guy was just reviewing the DVD of the movie:

Supernatural forces bring Selena back to life in the form of a Catwoman and this kitty's hungry for revenge.

Link: http://www.dvdactive.com/reviews/dvd/batman-returns.html?post_id=70451&action=report

No offense to Burton, but if he was trying to portray a Catwoman who had no supernatural qualities, then he did a poor job of it. Catwoman in Returns could only be supernatural to survive all she did unscathed.

 

[Brother Jack]

People really need to stop this misconception that it was supernatural, I partly blame critics for fire-starting this plus viewers just couldn't help but think it was supernatural.

They thought it was supernatural because that's how it seemed, especially towards the end of the movie.

 

[theMan-Bat]

I'm sorry, but Tim is having a laugh if he said that. He has to be.

No, he wasn't laughing. He was clearly serious. The director says she wasn't supernatural so she wasn't supernatural.

What did he say during the scene when Catwoman's getting shot repeatedly at close range by Shreck with no effect?

Not supernatural.....yeah, she probably just has her Weetabix in the morning.

The 9 lives thing was metaphorical, part of her cat theme and the mythology of cats. She never actually died. The shots obviously do have an effect as we see her stubbing, struggling to keep walking, moaning in obvious pain. But she kept going running on intense adrenaline. Under increased adrenaline a person can do amazing feats of strength. And people have survived being shot in the gut. Basically, as long as you don't destroy a vital organ, it is possible to survive. That Catwoman survived everything she'd been through in Batman Returns are not likely things but they are possible things. Batman material has always featured many things that are not likely but possible.

What Tim Burton says in the commentary during that scene is "I'm not a big fan of gun fire so I actually found this quite disturbing and shocking and quite emotional. I enjoyed this and again I sort of hand it to the studio for allowing this because now days I think they would get freaked out about something like this for a movie like this, 'You can't shoot a woman at point blank range', you know, I felt it was strong, it was a strong thing to do and for them not to get too upset about it was great."

 

[The Joker]

They thought it was supernatural because that's how it seemed, especially towards the end of the movie.

Of course it was. Boggles the mind why some people try to refute the obvious. There was nothing ambiguous here. Burton was as subtle as a sledgehammer about it.

No, he wasn't laughing. He was clearly serious. The director says she wasn't supernatural so she wasn't supernatural.

Horse radish, man.

Burton could say Batman was a cross dressing transvestite, but that wouldn't make it so, because that's not what was shown in the movie. Ditto for him saying Catwoman not being supernatural.

You can only judge a movie based on what was shown. If Burton intended Catwoman not to be supernatural, then he failed epically.

The 9 lives thing was metaphorical, part of her cat theme and the mythology of cats. She never actually died. The shots obviously do have an effect as we see her stubbing, struggling to keep walking, moaning in obvious pain. But she kept going running on intense adrenaline. Under increased adrenaline a person can do amazing feats of strength. And people have survived being shot in the gut. Basically, as long as you don't destroy a vital organ, it is possible to survive. That Catwoman survived everything she'd been through in Batman Returns are not likely things but they are possible things. Batman material has always featured many things that are not likely but possible.

Adrenaline? That's your reasoning for her survival? Batman goes down for several minutes with ONE gun shot from Schreck at an even longer distance, and he's wearing armor, but Catwoman keeps going after being shot four times in a row at close range? And then she also survives the electrical inferno, too?

Ah man, I can just about buy her falling from great heights several times during the movie, without so much as a broken arm, leg, or even a sprained ankle to show for it. But that is just bull s***.

What Tim Burton says in the commentary during that scene is "I'm not a big fan of gun fire so I actually found this quite disturbing and shocking and quite emotional. I enjoyed this and again I sort of hand it to the studio for allowing this because now days I think they would get freaked out about something like this for a movie like this, 'You can't shoot a woman at point blank range', you know, I felt it was strong, it was a strong thing to do and for them not to get too upset about it was great."

He's right, it was a great and shocking scene. And indisputable proof that Catwoman did indeed have supernatural abilities. Not that that had not been confirmed several times already during the movie, but this confirmed it absolutely. And then she pops up again at the end of the movie, still prancing around Gotham's rooftops in her costume, healthy as can be. And we know it's very shortly after she'd been shot, because the scratches she inflicted on Bruce were still fresh on his face. Still Xmas time, too. You ever heard of any normal person being up and about and scaling rooftops after being shot in the chest four times at close range?

Yeah, she's not supernatural at all :-\

 

[theMan-Bat]

Of course it was. Boggles the mind why some people try to refute the obvious. There was nothing ambiguous here. Burton was as subtle as a sledgehammer about it.

Horse radish, man.

Burton could say Batman was a cross dressing transvestite, but that wouldn't make it so, because that's not what was shown in the movie. Ditto for him saying Catwoman not being supernatural.

You can only judge a movie based on what was shown. If Burton intended Catwoman not to be supernatural, then he failed epically.

You are misunderstanding what Catwoman is in the film. Tim Burton explained it in the commentary. Can't be any clearer than that. You are taking literally what is meant to be metaphorical.

Adrenaline? That's your reasoning for her survival? Batman goes down for several minutes with ONE gun shot from Schreck at an even longer distance, and he's wearing armor, but Catwoman keeps going after being shot four times in a row at close range? And then she also survives the electrical inferno, too?

Ah man, I can just about buy her falling from great heights several times during the movie, without so much as a broken arm, leg, or even a sprained ankle to show for it. But that is just bull s***.

Catwoman being supernatural is what is just bull s***. She wasn't. Tim Burton says she wasn't supernatural. If she is supernatural then where is she getting powers from? Magical kitties? I think you've watched Halle Berry's Catwoman too many times.

He's right, it was a great and shocking scene.

Tim Burton is right that it's a great scene but he's wrong that she's not supernatural? You must be joking, Joker.

And indisputable proof that Catwoman did indeed have supernatural abilities. Not that that had not been confirmed several times already during the movie, but this confirmed it absolutely.

Not according to Tim Burton, the director of the movie.

And then she pops up again at the end of the movie, still prancing around Gotham's rooftops in her costume, healthy as can be. And we know it's very shortly after she'd been shot, because the scratches she inflicted on Bruce were still fresh on his face. Still Xmas time, too. You ever heard of any normal person being up and about and scaling rooftops after being shot in the chest four times at close range?

Yeah, she's not supernatural at all :-\

She's not supernatural. Tim Burton states it himself. I tried to help you understand the film better by providing you with the directors explanation. And you seem to be arguing with everyone just to be argumentative.