First Avenger The "OFFICIAL" CA:TFA Negative Reaction Thread

[captainrogers]

The weird part is I read that Hydra will be based in [BLACKOUT]France[/BLACKOUT]

Well, if Inglorious Basterds taught us anything, it's that that place is a good location to plan your eventual promotion from the Nazi Party.

 

[peterparker0077]

I think Cap will still be facing Nazis. The bulk of the film is probably his missions against Hydra and skull. I could always stand to see a little more Nazi a$$kickery tho.

Thats the thing Red Skull IS a Nazi. He was trained personally by Hitler to be his right hand man, and he was the embodiment of Nazism. The Red Skull Mask was even given to him by Hitler. Skull is not a Hydra agent... I hope this isn't messed up in the film, but clearly it is because Skull's symbol on his belt is not a swastika, it was a hydra symbol...

I was very sad to see them not even mention Nazis in the new Avengers: EMH cartoon, but the cartoon is still good.

Let's not forget our countries history here, and let's teach our kids where Captain America really came from.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I think the USO plot point is total c[BLACKOUT]R[/BLACKOUT]ap.

 

[Mercurius]

deceiving? No deception at all. And no, it's not broad and general. Nazi's were the evil enemy that Captain America fought, nothing broad, general, or deceptive about that. Captain America, is America's pure Hero, nothing broad, general, or deceptive about that either.

Again, Pete, there is absolutely NO reality to your idealistic adjectives of "pure", nor for the fantasy called "Captain America".

Wars are fought against evil enemies sometimes, like in the obvious case of WWII.

But I emphatically suggest that you take a look in a documentary called "The Fog of War", where Mr. Robert McNamara (you still remember him, don't you?) talks about that and the subsequent wars.

About the "how". And about "reality".

 

[peterparker0077]

Again, Pete, there is absolutely NO reality to your idealistic adjectives of "pure", nor for the fantasy called "Captain America".

Wars are fought against evil enemies sometimes, like in the obvious case of WWII.

But I emphatically suggest that you take a look in a documentary called "The Fog of War", where Mr. Robert McNamara (you still remember him, don't you?) talks about that and the subsequent wars.

About the "how". And about "reality".

I'm talking about Captain America and why he was created and what he stood for when he was created and who the enemies were at the time. What you posted has nothing to do with that. Read the first several Capt comics if you need too.

 

[afan]

Thats the thing Red Skull IS a Nazi. He was trained personally by Hitler to be his right hand man, and he was the embodiment of Nazism. The Red Skull Mask was even given to him by Hitler. Skull is not a Hydra agent... I hope this isn't messed up in the film, but clearly it is because Skull's symbol on his belt is not a swastika, it was a hydra symbol...

I was very sad to see them not even mention Nazis in the new Avengers: EMH cartoon, but the cartoon is still good.

Let's not forget our countries history here, and let's teach our kids where Captain America really came from.

I have no problem with HYDRA supplanting Nazis in the film. There's nothing "historically" accurate about Captain America so the license to tell the story is open ended. If HYDRA and the Skull ooze evil and Cap sets out to stop them as a symbol of America what's the problem? It's still a force of good vs the forces of evil. It's the "untold story of WWII", a period piece of super-hero fantasy with WWII as a backdrop.

Now for me where it gets dodgy is the inclusion of Nazi Germany(Skull offing Nazi officers) in the story.

 

[peterparker0077]

I have no problem with HYDRA supplanting Nazis in the film. There's nothing "historically" accurate about Captain America so the license to tell the story is open ended. If HYDRA and the Skull ooze evil and Cap sets out to stop them as a symbol of America what's the problem? It's still a force of good vs the forces of evil. It's the "untold story of WWII", a period piece of super-hero fantasy with WWII as a backdrop.

Now for me where it gets dodgy is the inclusion of Nazi Germany(Skull offing Nazi officers) in the story.

So you are fine with messing up the origin of the characters. I am not. What is dodgy about including Nazi Germany? Please tell me.

We should be teaching our kids why Captain America was created, because of the US's real history.

It feels like people are afraid to face the reality that evil things actually happened in the past and it's not PC to put in a movie. I say we must not forget our past, especially in this instance, when there was a very real evil in the world, the Nazis, and it was America and her Allies that stood against it and won. For the youth, and a lot of the general population, of America during that time, it was Captain America, that became the symbol for everything that America stood for fighting the good fight against the Nazis. This is why Captain America became so popular. We shouldn't forget that. This is what separates him from all other superheroes, he was fighting a real world enemy, in a real world war, and he was created for that purpose. No other superhero can claim that.

 

[captainrogers]

I think the USO plot point is total c[BLACKOUT]R[/BLACKOUT]ap.

I see it as a good point to introduce the "why "of the costume. From my understanding, he is Marvel Movieverse's first costumed superhero. I get the reasoning of making cap, initially, more of a moral act, because of his uniqueness as the only supersoldier specimen they have.
I can't think of a better way to give cap a costume and send him out on the battlefield. I remember reading Morrel's chosen and thinking, "Huh, that actually makes amazing sense!" The plot point is acceptable to me, by I can understand how people could take some offense to Johnstons poor wording. If he were THAT against the costume, we probably would've just gotten Steve Rogers in black leather or common BDU's with minimal flourishes.

 

[afan]

I don't see how supplanting Nazis with Hydra messes with the origin.
Steve Rogers emphatically wants to enlist, but physically he is wanting. His deep desire is noticed and he is selected as a candidate for the super-secret, super-soldier experiment. He passes all tests and is subjected to the serum. That's the origin, and it's in the film.
Does it really mess with the origin to feature HYDRA, as an evil threat to the world? A threat unknown to the American public, a threat that surpasses even the Axis powers. HYDRA an offshoot of the Nazi party, becomes a threat to the world on a "cosmic" scale. It's a threat worthy of a super-hero.

It's not dissing WWII, or the evil that was Nazi Germany, it's adding an untold albeit fictional chapter. The super-soldier experiment is a flight of fancy set in the historical period of WWII, it opens the door to any number of fictional possibilities, HYDRA is one such flight.


As to the inclusion of Nazis........IMO if you are gonna focus on HYDRA as the antagonist than do so %100. The "known" war against the AXIS powers can certainly be referenced, but including them in the film only confuses the audience, and for me begs the question....If Skull is killing Nazis, wouldn't the Nazis retaliate?

And re. the claim that no other super-hero fought the Axis powers, you are factually and grossly incorrect. The list is quite long and includes even Superman.

I have several concerns about the published details in this film, but creating a fictional evil for Cap to fight, is not one of them.

 

[Triad]

So you are fine with messing up the origin of the characters. I am not. What is dodgy about including Nazi Germany? Please tell me.

We should be teaching our kids why Captain America was created, because of the US's real history.

It feels like people are afraid to face the reality that evil things actually happened in the past and it's not PC to put in a movie. I say we must not forget our past, especially in this instance, when there was a very real evil in the world, the Nazis, and it was America and her Allies that stood against it and won. For the youth, and a lot of the general population, of America during that time, it was Captain America, that became the symbol for everything that America stood for fighting the good fight against the Nazis. This is why Captain America became so popular. We shouldn't forget that. This is what separates him from all other superheroes, he was fighting a real world enemy, in a real world war, and he was created for that purpose. No other superhero can claim that.

I agree 100% peterparker0077! I don't have a problem with the filmmakers using WWII as an opportunity to introduce HYDRA as a villainous organization that carries into later movies set in the present, but I hope that they do not play down the fact that the Nazis were the reason the Cap was created in the first place. As you stated above, people are actually capable of evil and have done so in the past. One of the unique things about Cap is that he fought against that evil that existed in the real world, not just some fictional embodiment of evil.

 

[afan]

I agree 100% peterparker0077! I don't have a problem with the filmmakers using WWII as an opportunity to introduce HYDRA as a villainous organization that carries into later movies set in the present, but I hope that they do not play down the fact that the Nazis were the reason the Cap was created in the first place. As you stated above, people are actually capable of evil and have done so in the past. One of the unique things about Cap is that he fought against that evil that existed in the real world, not just some fictional embodiment of evil.

This is not correct! A litany of fictional heros battled Nazis in comics and in films! Cap was just one of many!

 

[peterparker0077]

This is not correct! A litany of fictional heros battled Nazis in comics and in films! Cap was just one of many!

Not true. Unless you are talking about Bucky. Capt was the only Hero created to fight the Nazis.

And Red Skull was a Nazi.

 

[peterparker0077]

I don't see how supplanting Nazis with Hydra messes with the origin.
Steve Rogers emphatically wants to enlist, but physically he is wanting. His deep desire is noticed and he is selected as a candidate for the super-secret, super-soldier experiment. He passes all tests and is subjected to the serum. That's the origin, and it's in the film.

You are missing so much, that is just part of his origin, how he got his powers, not why he got his powers, and what he was meant to do with those powers.... etc.. you're basically missing 70% of the story.

Does it really mess with the origin to feature HYDRA, as an evil threat to the world? A threat unknown to the American public, a threat that surpasses even the Axis powers. HYDRA an offshoot of the Nazi party, becomes a threat to the world on a "cosmic" scale. It's a threat worthy of a super-hero.

If they are an offshoot of the Nazis, then that is fine, but then they're still Nazis. But it should be clear that they are Nazis. Yes, it does really mess with the origin if they are not Nazis. Again, the whole real/fictional enemies. I go back to the original Capt comics, and there is no Hydra in them...

As to the inclusion of Nazis........IMO if you are gonna focus on HYDRA as the antagonist than do so %100. The "known" war against the AXIS powers can certainly be referenced, but including them in the film only confuses the audience, and for me begs the question....If Skull is killing Nazis, wouldn't the Nazis retaliate?

Then you miss the whole reality of what happened back in the 40s and why Captain America was even created to begin with.

 

[afan]

Not true. Unless you are talking about Bucky. Capt was the only Hero created to fight the Nazis.

And Red Skull was a Nazi.

He may be the best known, but he is not the only super-hero created during the war years, or the only super-hero that battled the AXIS powers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpTfS-jWyJA

The WWII years are covered shortly after the 5 minute mark.

 

[GhostPoet]

The way I see it...we don't really need Nazi's...
The reason they create Captain America is because Hydra is too much for the troops to handle. They are already dealing with the war against the Nazi's, but then Hydra also, who has better weaponry? Forget it. They needed a super soldier to take them on.

 

[Figs]

You are missing so much, that is just part of his origin, how he got his powers, not why he got his powers, and what he was meant to do with those powers.... etc.. you're basically missing 70% of the story.

They already said multiple times that the Nazis will in fact be in the movie, they're not being replace entirely by Hydra. Also, even if they were, it's ridiculous to say that that's skipping over 70% of the story if the Nazis weren't in the film.

 

[afan]

Bottom line is ......and this point was made by another poster a while back so I can't take credit for it's logical clarity.....you can't market a Mengele(or insert vilest Nazi) action figure, hence Red Skull and his HYDRA goons.

 

[peterparker0077]

Bottom line is ......and this point was made by another poster a while back so I can't take credit for it's logical clarity.....you can't market a Mengele(or insert vilest Nazi) action figure, hence Red Skull and his HYDRA goons.

Like I said.. bottom line.. political correctness... reguardless of actual history...

That is a major mistake.

I am glad Nazi's will be in the film though, I hadn't read that yet, thanks Figs.

So is Red Skull a Nazi or Hydra?? Because he was never a Hydra agent in the original comics, again, he was trained personally by Hitler... Hopefully that isn't changed, but it looks like it is.

Again, lets teach our kids the truth of where Captain America came from and why, which is actual American history.

 

[Figs]

Like I said.. bottom line.. political correctness... reguardless of actual history...

That is a major mistake.

I am glad Nazi's will be in the film though, I hadn't read that yet, thanks Figs.

No problem. t:

They had said that Red Skull(before the accident)is testing out his weapon on some of the Nazis.

 

[Mercurius]

I'm talking about Captain America and why he was created and what he stood for when he was created and who the enemies were at the time. What you posted has nothing to do with that. Read the first several Capt comics if you need too.

Perhaps you are talking about those things (in that thoughtless idiom you use) but, at the same time, to get to your so-hurried-up conclusions, you stumble and stomp many important concepts one should first get straight.

But, of course, you can ignore everything and continue running like mad, waving the several first Capt comics in your hands.

 

[peterparker0077]

He may be the best known, but he is not the only super-hero created during the war years, or the only super-hero that battled the AXIS powers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpTfS-jWyJA

The WWII years are covered shortly after the 5 minute mark.

He was the only Hero created to directly fight the Nazi's.

 

[peterparker0077]

Perhaps you are talking about those things (in that thoughtless idiom you use) but, at the same time, to get to your so-hurried-up conclusions, you stumble and stomp many important concepts one should first get straight.

But, of course, you can ignore everything and continue running like mad, waving the several first Capt comics in your hands.

lol

 

[peterparker0077]

No problem. t:

They had said that Red Skull(before the accident)is testing out his weapon on some of the Nazis.

Well, that's what evil bad guys do.. test their stuff out on their own people... Again, let's hope Red Skull is the Nazi he is suppose to be...

 

[afan]

Well, that's what evil bad guys do.. test their stuff out on their own people... Again, let's hope Red Skull is the Nazi he is suppose to be...

To clarify the story detail as it's been told...
He uses the weapon to kill three Nazi officers that have been ordered to retrieve his weaponry for the war effort.
Quite a bit different than the evil cliche of testing the weapon on his own flunkies. I read it as an act of defiance against Nazi authority(read Hitler).

 

[peterparker0077]

To clarify the story detail as it's been told...
He uses the weapon to kill three Nazi officers that have been ordered to retrieve his weaponry for the war effort.
Quite a bit different than the evil cliche of testing the weapon on his own flunkies. I read it as an act of defiance against Nazi authority(read Hitler).

Ok, thanks for the clarification.. well.. that's stupid, why would Red Skull do that? Unless he's not a Nazi....