First Avenger The Official Captain America Critic's Review Thread - Part 2

[shogunrua]

when i say character development i mean all the time they were able to focus on him and his crazy games. A luxury only afforded because we didn't have Batman's origin to worry about

oh ok sorry I didn't understand

 

[Liam_H]

I apologize....my bad

No need to apologize. Its just that what you guys are discussing I'm sure many other people would enjoy to read; and they would more likely see it if it was in the fan review thread instead of the critic one. Also Godman posted his review in this thread for some reason instead of the proper one, so you had no choice but to respond in here.

On a side note it seems you're very frustrated debating him so I feel bad finding some of his responses pretty comical.

 

[TheVileOne]

The flag scene I really dug. You know why? It shows that Steve is smart and clever. Not only that, he is also an outside the box thinker and creative. The scene was similar in nature to like Will Smith taking the written test in MIB.

Also, it is like the Odyssey. Odysseus' wife prepares a test for a group of potential suitors. They all fail at threading the string of a bow. Odysseus in the form of an old man does it because he is smart and uses his head. He threads the bow by bending the wooden part of the bow and is able to shoot the arrow as requested. This scenes shows that Steve is ultimately later strong not just in body but mind as well which Cap should be.

 

[TheVileOne]

Hey I admire Godman's dedication even though I don't really agree with much of it.

Look not everyone is going to like everything that we like. So I mean whatever.

 

[Godman]

what character development ? I thought that what made Joker such a nice character was that he lacks character completely, he just "do" things like he says he's more like a force of nature, an "agent of chaos", that made him completely unpredictable and dangerous. But why does he do what he does? what's his motivation besides just a nice challenge? I didn't see any of that in that movie.

TDK is a really nicely made movie, but no it didn't set any standard for the superhero genre, or maybe just the realistic angle hollywood so much thrives on these days. I think the grandfather of the superhero genre is Donner's Superman. By the way, TDK is full of inconsistencies.

Anway, I can't wait to see Cap

"I thought that what made Joker such a nice character was that he lacks character completely, he just "do" things like he says he's more like a force of nature, an "agent of chaos", that made him completely unpredictable and dangerous. But why does he do what he does? what's his motivation besides just a nice challenge? I didn't see any of that in that movie."


that is character development because u at least just explained the point nolan was making. some people in this world are just chaotic and The Joker explained all this when he was at dents bed...h explained thoroughly why he is doing what he is doing. to upset the natural order. Alfred also broke such a being down to batman. some people are just wicked and we got the concept of joker being a new kind of strange. just all unconventional, but for red skull to even wear a nazi uniform and answer to hitler at some point meant that he has some kind of purpose in why he has certain perspectives and why he isnt on americas side.

why does red skull hate america? why is he bothering them?

 

[captainrogers]

take ur word for nazis being bad like how people took obamas and bushes word about the evil iraq people who didnt ask to be invaded and got bombed for oil and called terrorists when in essence they werent the ones dropping tons of ammo and bombs in foreign countries? lol

I KNOW WHY THE NAZIS WERE CONSIDERD BAD, but i also see the same reasons in ALL regimes that think their cause is righteous just like AMERICA.

red skull was germanies weapon and cap am was americas. who is to say one is right and one is wrong? both sides are fighting for victory over the other no matter the methods.

Oh you do know why NAZIS are considered bad?
Ok.

 

[roach]

No need to apologize. Its just that what you guys are discussing I'm sure many other people would enjoy to read; and they would more likely see it if it was in the fan review thread instead of the critic one. Also Godman posted his review in this thread for some reason instead of the proper one, so you had no choice but to respond in here.

On a side note it seems you're very frustrated debating him so I feel bad finding some of his responses pretty comical.

he's not in here looking to talk about the movie...he's looking for a fight. I am not gonna debate global politics with someone who doesnt know what he's talking about because Captain America didnt go into why the Nazi's were evil.

 

[Godman]

when i say character development i mean all the time they were able to focus on him and his crazy games. A luxury only afforded because we didn't have Batman's origin to worry about

Scare Crow was a well developed character as u saw his agenda and purpose

 

[TheVileOne]

I think Erksine explained. It amplifies all that is there so all the bad parts too. I mean why did Hitler do what he did? Skull was basically trying to do the same thing. The serum made him that much more evil, sick and twisted than he was before hand. The serum made him despicable inside and out.

 

[Godman]

Oh you do know why NAZIS are considered bad?
Ok.

yes, why a perspective of them are evil as is america to more nations that none lol. i see why america can be loved and also see why it can be HATED.


see TDK played with this concept. Evil is a mere perspective. we need the WHY to establish a position

 

[Liam_H]

Scare Crow was a well developed character as u saw his agenda and purpose

Could you not except that this is a fantastical fictional telling of WWII in the Marvel universe that happens to include a super soldier with a shield trying to stop a quasi-hitler with a red skull? Then the motivation would be clear to stop the Red Skull from killing innocents and imposing his will on the free world.

 

[Godman]

I think Erksine explained. It amplifies all that is there so all the bad parts too. I mean why did Hitler do what he did? Skull was basically trying to do the same thing. The serum made him that much more evil, sick and twisted than he was before hand. The serum made him despicable inside and out.

If they showed skull actually kill civilians and be brutal like the joker on his fake batman killing spree then would have felt that this guy needs to DIE!!!! lol but nah, i had no reason to root for the "good" guy or protagonist in this movie. Red SKull was actually the coolest part of the movie. sadly all i could think of was how cool the matrix was and how phenomenal hugo pulled of fight scenes with actual amazing choreography in the matrix in comparison to this generic pow, biff, style as if combat was that dull back then lol. they could have added some spice like how Casino Royale's fights weren't necessarily martial arts, but they were gritty and deliberate vigor

 

[roach]

I liked the Stan Lee cameo

 

[Godman]

Could you not except that this is a fantastical fictional telling of WWII in the Marvel universe that happens to include a super soldier with a shield trying to stop a quasi-hitler with a red skull? Then the motivation would be clear to stop the Red Skull from killing innocents and imposing his will on the free world.

thats the problem. im not a ten year old anymore who believes in the ******** peddled by the higher ups, i am a dynamic based thinker as all adults should be well into their twenties and up. we now know in wisdom of age that there is no such thing as black and white perspectives and especially a "free world" so that, i guess, was my beef. there are way more layers to explore. Watchmen really nailed the dynamics of good and evil and why not all evil is bad and not all good id actually beneficial.

CA never touched on none of this. it was, here are the baddies and we have to stop them.

 

[Zebrahiim]

My audience cheered at the top of their lungs when Stan Lee came on screen, to the point where we didn't hear what he said hahaha. Can someone tell me?

Also, they cheered during the Spider-Man trailer. Cheered when Nick Fury came on screen and when the credits ended there was complete silence and after the "After credits scene" people stood up and cheered.

Awesome night can't wait for Avengers.

 

[TheVileOne]

Godman, Skull murdered that innocent man that was hiding the cube. Also, he ordered his soldiers to destroy the entire surrounding village more than likely filled with innocents. To me that's a bad guy.

Also his intent to bomb cities all over the world including NY.

 

[TheVileOne]

My audience cheered at the top of their lungs when Stan Lee came on screen, to the point where we didn't hear what he said hahaha. Can someone tell me?

Also, they cheered during the Spider-Man trailer. Cheered when Nick Fury came on screen and when the credits ended there was complete silence and after the "After credits scene" people stood up and cheered.

Awesome night can't wait for Avengers.

Zebrahiim, I recall him saying, "I thought he'd be taller."

 

[Herolee10]

If they showed skull actually kill civilians and be brutal like the joker on his fake batman killing spree then would have felt that this guy needs to DIE!!!! lol but nah, i had no reason to root for the "good" guy or protagonist in this movie. Red SKull was actually the coolest part of the movie. sadly all i could think of was how cool the matrix was and how phenomenal hugo pulled of fight scenes with actual amazing choreography in the matrix in comparison to this generic pow, biff, style as if combat was that dull back then lol. they could have added some spice like how Casino Royale's fights weren't necessarily martial arts, but they were gritty and deliberate vigor

Does every villain need to be portrayed in a way where the audiences HAVE to feel that he HAS to die?

For me, an effective villain is one who is able to bring greatest injury to the hero of the story, and it was BECAUSE of the Red Skull's actions that led to Steve being frozen in ice for the next 70 years while a remainder of those who he cared about, who he had a potential future with, all passed on without him.

And even though the Red Skull isn't shown killing someone in a in-depth way like the Joker was shown to do in TDK, the Red Skull's plans featured most, if not ALL of America being wiped out from existence.

HAD he succeeded, then there would be no Bruce Banner, Tony Stark, or any other MCU hero going about in the present.

While you may not have gotten the clue, a majority of the people who have seen it seemed capable of realizing that the Red Skull was evil enough and that they didn't need to see him do Joker-like-things in order to know how evil he was.

Like others have said; THIS IS A ORIGIN FILM; TDK wasn't. Did you see Ra's Al Ghul actually killing someone in person? Heck, did you see the Scarecrow killing someone? WE KNOW that they had the intentions to do so, but we never actually saw either of them kill someone with their own hands on screen. Did that mean that they weren't presented as EVIL enough?

 

[Godman]

Godman, Skull murdered that innocent man that was hiding the cube. Also, he ordered his soldiers to destroy the entire surrounding village more than likely filled with innocents. To me that's a bad guy.

Also his intent to bomb cities all over the world including NY.

why did he want to bomb all these cities?

 

[TheVileOne]

Godman, he wanted to replace Hitler and be in charge and destroy any city or enemy he felt posed a threat to his reign.

 

[Godman]

Does every villain need to be portrayed in a way where the audiences HAVE to feel that he HAS to die?

For me, an effective villain is one who is able to bring greatest injury to the hero of the story, and it was BECAUSE of the Red Skull's actions that led to Steve being frozen in ice for the next 70 years while a remainder of those who he cared about, who he had a potential future with, all passed on without him.

And even though the Red Skull isn't shown killing someone in a in-depth way like the Joker was shown to do in TDK, the Red Skull's plans featured most, if not ALL of America being wiped out from existence.

HAD he succeeded, then there would be no Bruce Banner, Tony Stark, or any other MCU hero going about in the present.

While you may not have gotten the clue, a majority of the people who have seen it seemed capable of realizing that the Red Skull was evil enough and that they didn't need to see him do Joker-like-things in order to know how evil he was.

Like others have said; THIS IS A ORIGIN FILM; TDK wasn't. Did you see Ra's Al Ghul actually killing someone in person? Heck, did you see the Scarecrow killing someone? WE KNOW that they had the intentions to do so, but we never actually saw either of them kill someone with their own hands on screen. Did that mean that they weren't presented as EVIL enough?

I see ur point, but i didnt care any more for america winning as in any war its participated in than red skull. Skull didnt choose that to happen to rogers tho...so thats a mundane concept. he was propelled into that decision. RACHEL DYING was jokers intent and he pulled it off.

 

[Herolee10]

why did he want to bomb all these cities?

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Why do they call Superman the Man of Steel?

Why is Howard Stark Tony's father?


The Red Skull believed himself to be a superior being over everyone on Earth due to his intelligence and physical superiority over any known human being (from his POV) at the time, and thought that he alone should be a GOD among men.

With no major Countries in his way to resist him, gaining control over humanity wouldn't be hard to accomplish.

 

[Godman]

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Why do they call Superman the Man of Steel?

Why is Howard Stark Tony's father?


The Red Skull believed himself to be a superior being over everyone on Earth due to his intelligence and physical superiority over any known human being (from his POV) at the time, and thought that he alone should be a GOD among men.

With no major Countries in his way to resist him, gaining control over humanity wouldn't be hard to accomplish.

how's that different from america?

 

[Herolee10]

Skull didnt choose that to happen to rogers tho...so thats a mundane concept. he was propelled into that decision. RACHEL DYING was jokers intent and he pulled it off.

Regardless of whether it was Red Skull's intent or not, it was still nevertheless HIS actions that led to that, just as how it was his orders for Dr. Erksine, a close confidante of Steve, to be assassinated.

We don't know if Rachel dying was the Joker's initial intent. All he wanted to do was force Batman into a corner, let alone, get Batman and Gordon/Co. out of the building so that he could escape easily with Lau.

For all he knew, Batman could have failed to have saved Dent, while Gordon could have ended up saving Rachel.

 

[Herolee10]

how's that different from america?

America as in Captain America, or America as in the country itself? Seriously dude, you talk as if we're supposed to be super intelligent beings like you are since we're adults, and yet your posts show otherwise.

If you're talking about Steve, then clearly you have seen a different film. If you're talking about America, then again, you've seen something else, and if you're talking about right now America, than that's for the politics thread, and NOT here.