The Official Costume Thread - - - - - - - - - Part 18

[moviedoors]

I'm pretty sure the classic Jor-El costume was colored green because it felt right...because those comics were done to a certain degree by feel and with heart. But this production is not from the heart...it is not art, it is product. And product says black costumes and the latest movie trends are kewl, so you get a sold-out Superman.

This is why I don't expect a giant key or an alien zoo and why I didn't expect trunks on the costume, and why no glasses on Clark and shots of him with a beard looking all emo in Alaska don't surprise me...this is product. It is not art. These people don't give a damn about Siegel and Shuster or Curt Swan or Mort Weisinger or Superman himself, because if they did then then would actually try to learn about the character-particularly when the character was big.

Assumptions, assumptions, lots of vitriol, and more assumptions.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Assumptions, assumptions, lots of vitriol, and more assumptions.

Indeed. It's really sad and pathetic how people are quick to throw the word "emo" (if you even want to call it a word) on certain characters/individuals for simply exhibiting soul-searching idiosyncrasies.

 

[Kurosawa]

Of course you agree. Any excuse to make it as close to the source as possible.

Yes, **** me for wanting a Superman movie to be faithful to the comics.

Assumptions, assumptions, lots of vitriol, and more assumptions.

Or hard truths that people wish to deny?

Do you honestly think anyone involved with this production knows jack about Superman? The closest is Zack Snyder, and HE'S so ignorant about the character that he has praised Frank Miller's disgusting Dark Knight Returns before. This is gig to them; it is a job. It is not being done with passion, and the film was greenlit in the first place because of legal reasons. It's product. 100% product.

 

[DKDetective]

Yes, **** me for wanting a Superman movie to be faithful to the comics.



Or hard truths that people wish to deny?

Do you honestly think anyone involved with this production knows jack about Superman? The closest is Zack Snyder, and HE'S so ignorant about the character that he has praised Frank Miller's disgusting Dark Knight Returns before. This is gig to them; it is a job. It is not being done with passion, and the film was greenlit in the first place because of legal reasons. It's product. 100% product.

You don't know any of this. It's all speculation. You have no clue whether things are being done with passion on set. It's one thing to disagree with someone else's interpretation of the character, it's another to slander an entire production based on rumours and spy photos. You want to know why so many people don't take any of your arguments seriously? Because you are always undermining your credibility with baseless, rude, ignorant fanboy rants like these. Kurosawa, it's clear that you are a passionate, knowledgeable Superman fan. You are better than resorting to fallacious, insult-laden arguments like the above.

Nolan knew next to nothing about comics or Batman when he began. He even wanted to get rid of Batman's cape, but he was passionate about what he was doing and he brought Goyer in educate him about the comics and the character. Look how that turned out!

 

[Kurosawa]

You don't know any of this. It's all speculation. You have no clue whether things are being done with passion on set. It's one thing to disagree with someone else's interpretation of the character, it's another to slander an entire production based on rumours and spy photos. You want to know why so many people don't take any of your arguments seriously? Because you are always undermining your credibility with baseless, rude, ignorant fanboy rants like these. Kurosawa, it's clear that you are a passionate, knowledgeable Superman fan. You are better than resorting to fallacious, insult-laden arguments like the above.

Nolan knew next to nothing about comics or Batman when he began. He even wanted to get rid of Batman's cape, but he was passionate about what he was doing and he brought Goyer in educate him about the comics and the character. Look how that turned out!

I never trust Batman guys with Superman, and Snyder has already proven that he doesn't get the character. Frank Miller's DKR is a slap in the face to Superman, Siegel and Shuster, and Superman fans everywhere. It is a disgusting piece of ****. And Snyder praised it.

People "don't take my arguments seriously" because I am daring to take a critical view of this production. If I was mindlessly slobbering over every detail like a vapid fanboy who is just happy to take the scraps I am given, then more people would agree with me. I'll give the MOS crew credit where it's due and criticism where it's due. And if in the end, if the movie does turn out to be good, then I will admit that I took some things wrong. Because it's not about me, or about other fans. It's about Jerry and Joe and their brilliant creation, Superman. The greatest comic book character of all time and an American icon.

 

[moviedoors]

Snyder has already proven that he doesn't get the character.

Massively jumping the gun.

Frank Miller's DKR is a slap in the face to Superman, Siegel and Shuster, and Superman fans everywhere. It is a disgusting piece of ****. And Snyder praised it.

Really? Fine, you don't like DKR. Whatever no big deal. But getting all upset because they did something different with a character in a one off? Can you be anymore cliched?

People "don't take my arguments seriously" because I am daring to take a critical view of this production.

NO IT'S NOT. It's because of how unreasonable and disrespectful you are to those who don't agree with you. How many ****ing times do you have to be told that?

 

[SnuffTheRooster]

Kurowasa, obviously they should hire you because you're the superman expert. All things Superman should be approved by you. Clearly, you've got more knowledge of superman in your pinkie than they do in their entire crew. Shame on them for making a Superman movie without your permission.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Well, one would be hard pressed not to praise The Dark Knight Returns. So I doubt that "proves" anything about Snyder.

 

[Astrodust]

Well you can't deny Kurasawa's passion for the character. In his defense, a film crew can easily be made of people that don't know or have that much love for Superman. They have specialized jobs and do what they think is best for the film they are working on, then they move to the next film. They don't truly care about Superman, only what they think will sell. Many of you guys easily know much more than the people working on MoS.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the costume designer knew jack **** about Superman before he or she started working on the film. I'm not saying they aren't talented. I'm sure they will move on to the next project and come up with interesting costumes for whatever period the movie is in. But it doesn't mean that the design or choices they made for this movie are spectacular. The costume isn't really all that.

 

[I Am The Knight]

If only all of these profesional people in the film industry could just get a degree on "Superman", then maybe Hollywood could produce a Supermovie.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Put a wreath on his head and you've got Father Christmas!

LMAO! Dude that was so wrong yet so right. I admit I don't like the idea of Supes wearing his daddy's clothes or wearing a costume his daddy made. It just gives me a Smallville feeling of a dead Jor-El dictating his sons destiny.

It's still good... and iconic...

Is this fan made or from that new crap DC is putting out! Sorry I have much anger for them. Either way, what is up with the design at his wrists? That just looks weird.

 

[Wheels]

Donner's Jor EL did the dictating Clarks destiny stuff as well and I didn't like it.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Didn't Donner's Jor-El more teach Clark and explain things to him, as opposed to dictating to him? I guess I could see how it could be seen the same way, but with the awfulness that was Jor-El on Smallville, I just see one father figure as being more benevolent and loving, and not a bush burning god.
And just to clarify, I do not read comic books so all that I have to go on is cartoons, movies, and tv shows; so I have no idea how Jor-El was in the comics.

 

[Wheels]

Didn't Donner's Jor-El more teach Clark and explain things to him, as opposed to dictating to him? I guess I could see how it could be seen as dictating, but with the awfulness that was Jor-El on Smallville, I just see one father figure as being more benevolent and loving, and not a bush burning god.

True, Smallville's Jor EL was more forceful, but they both pretty much tried to make Clark's decisions for him. Saving the world should be Clark's idea, and not Jor EL's

 

[moviedoors]

Well you can't deny Kurasawa's passion for the character. In his defense, a film crew can easily be made of people that don't know or have that much love for Superman. They have specialized jobs and do what they think is best for the film they are working on, then they move to the next film. They don't truly care about Superman, only what they think will sell. Many of you guys easily know much more than the people working on MoS.

Does it really matter if the boom op even knows who Superman is? Or even the costume designer? They all have a couple of bosses you know. That's why you have a producer and a director. You get talented people, you give them a vision, and you aim them. I'll take the costume designer or the production designer with the better resume over the one who just really really likes Superman. And I'll take Zakk Snyder over a frothing-at-the-mouth fanboy any day.

 

[moviedoors]

Yes, **** me for wanting a Superman movie to be faithful to the comics.

So you freely admit you were only agreeing that green is a scientist's color because it brings it closer to the source, not because of the actual merits of that particular line of thought. Gotcha!

Or hard truths that people wish to deny?

Not even remotely. You're insulting. End of discussion.

Do you honestly think anyone involved with this production knows jack about Superman? The closest is Zack Snyder, and HE'S so ignorant about the character that he has praised Frank Miller's disgusting Dark Knight Returns before.

The Dark Knight Returns is brilliant. I like Superman. Go ahead. Be a cliche and say I'm not a real fan.

This is gig to them; it is a job. It is not being done with passion, and the film was greenlit in the first place because of legal reasons. It's product. 100% product.

Prove it. Put up, or shut up. And sorry, Synder liking The Dark Knight Returns doesn't count as proof. I like The Dark Knight Returns. I was under the impression that quite a few comic fans liked The Dark Knight Returns. Go ahead. Insult all of us.

 

[Wheels]

TDKR is a Batman story first and foremost, and it's merits should not totally hinge on the portrayal of Superman.

 

[tomk]

But not smart enough to use Google?

Yes I did look and unsurprisingly found nothing. You're the one making a completely unfounded assertion so it's up to you to prove it.

To be honest it sounds like the sort of new age BS that anybody with any learning or knowledge of science would laugh at.

 

[moviedoors]

Really, what the hell does a scientist look like anyway? There's the cliched lab coat look, but it's a cliche for a reason. Certainly it's not golden era Jor-El. That's straight up 1930's sci-fi Flash Gordon. You could stick a ray gun in one hand and Lara in the other like a damsel in distress and no one would bat an eye.

This is what scientists look like:

http://www.badastronomy.com/pr/images/plait_tam3_silly.jpg

http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/neil-degrasse-tyson-335a070907.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Brian_Cox.jpg

Completely and utterly average. So, beyond a cliched lab coat, I don't know what you guys were expecting that would just scream "alien scientist!"

 

[Astrodust]

Does it really matter if the boom op even knows who Superman is? Or even the costume designer? They all have a couple of bosses you know. That's why you have a producer and a director. You get talented people, you give them a vision, and you aim them. I'll take the costume designer or the production designer with the better resume over the one who just really really likes Superman. And I'll take Zakk Snyder over a frothing-at-the-mouth fanboy any day.

I don't think you got my point or Kurasawa's for that matter. First off Kurasawa is rather fanatical so this is not to say that I agree with everything he has said. In fact I do believe that talented people can come together and make a great Superman film even if they don't know or have as much passion for the character. Hollywood is a business. It tries to cater to the fans when possible but in the end it's what it can sell. However people that lack a true understanding of what makes Superman who is is can alter the integrity of the character.

For example you can change the Superman universe quite a lot and still have a Superman product. It can be a great film but for some people it isn't enough. For some people it has to feel like Superman. To really illustrate this example you might have to imagine the extreme. Let's say they made Clark a Hispanic immigrant. Left his S but took away his cape and boots. Made Lois a widow and turned the Daily Planet into a real newspaper publisher, let's say The New York Times. Personally I think this could be a great film under the Superman banner. It could have a great story, amazing action and top notch acting. But at what point does this stray too far from the Superman that we know. That's where the problem lies for some people. But this is hollywood and you are kidding yourselves if you think they really care about Superman. They care only enough to sell their product.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

True, Smallville's Jor EL was more forceful, but they both pretty much tried to make Clark's decisions for him. Saving the world should be Clark's idea, and not Jor EL's

You're right, I do remember Marlon Brando making a speech about how he sent his son to Earth so he can be a beacon of hope for them and lead them/us....somewhere, sorry I forgot the rest of what he said. I also would like the idea of Clark making the decision himself to help people as opposed to being forced to do it like in Smallville, or lead that way like in Donner's Superman. Another reason I am so forgiving of Donner's Jor-El is because Superman blatantly disobeyed him in a massive way and Jor-El didn't pull an Old Testament on him.

And what the heck is up with this long explanation of the color green? This is a comic book movie! I doubt people going to see it are going to google "the different meanings of green as it pertains to knowledge" on their iPhones as they are walking into the theatre.

 

[moviedoors]

I don't think you got my point or Kurasawa's for that matter. First off Kurasawa is rather fanatical so this is not to say that I agree with everything he has said. In fact I do believe that talented people can come together and make a great Superman film even if they don't know or have as much passion for the character. Hollywood is a business. It tries to cater to the fans when possible but in the end it's what it can sell. However people that lack a true understanding of what makes Superman who is is can alter the integrity of the character.

For example you can change the Superman universe quite a lot and still have a Superman product. It can be a great film but for some people it isn't enough. For some people it has to feel like Superman. To really illustrate this example you might have to imagine the extreme. Let's say they made Clark a Hispanic immigrant. Left his S but took away his cape and boots. Made Lois a widow and turned the Daily Planet into a real newspaper publisher, let's say The New York Times. Personally I think this could be a great film under the Superman banner. It could have a great story, amazing action and top notch acting. But at what point does this stray too far from the Superman that we know. That's where the problem lies for some people. But this is hollywood and you are kidding yourselves if you think they really care about Superman. They care only enough to sell their product.

No, the studio heads care only about money and not the character (I'm really sick of the vague, meaningless "Hollywood" term. It's way too broad and imprecise). It's their job to make money. We don't get movies unless those studio heads run their business well. That does not however necessarily extend to the actual filmmakers. Sometimes it does. I just refuse to accept that everyone involved in this production, from Nolan, to Synder, to Goyer, are just being a bunch of ****es. That is an unfounded sentiment. Nolan obviously only does projects he cares about, and he's in the unique position of not being messed with by studio heads because his vision makes them lots of money. There's no need to mess with him. At this point, WB will let him do whatever he wants. Goyer's proven it too on his front, and he's a giant nerd. Synder's last couple didn't do so hot, but it's obvious WB likes him and they let him take risks. No matter what you think of Snyder as a filmmaker (and I don't like all his movies either), I don't think he's ever made a movie insincerely. Sucker Punch wasn't any good, but I still believe Snyder meant it with every bone in his body (you win some, you lose some). That's also not to mention that every movie he's made has been super geeky genre fare to its core. I don't think it's out of line to think this guy was probably pretty damn happy to get offered the ultimate superhero property. I'm sure he's read a couple issues of Superman. Who cares if his cred isn't up to snuff in the eyes of some maniacal uber fan like Kurosawa?

And bring on the way-out-there Superman movie. I don't care if it pisses off the fanboys. Good. All I care about is whether or not you do something interesting with the characters and tell a good story. That's it. If being faithful gets me a good movie, great! If changing things gets me a good movie, great.

 

[Astrodust]

No, the studio heads care only about money and not the character (I'm really sick of the vague, meaningless "Hollywood" term. It's way too broad and imprecise). It's their job to make money. We don't get movies unless those studio heads run their business well. That does not however necessarily extend to the actual filmmakers. Sometimes it does. I just refuse to accept that everyone involved in this production, from Nolan, to Synder, to Goyer, are just being a bunch of ****es. That is an unfounded sentiment. Nolan obviously only does projects he cares about, and he's in the unique position of not being messed with by studio heads because his vision makes them lots of money. There's no need to mess with him. At this point, WB will let him do whatever he wants. Goyer's proven it too on his front, and he's a giant nerd. Synder's last couple didn't do so hot, but it's obvious WB likes him and they let him take risks. No matter what you think of Snyder as a filmmaker (and I don't like all his movies either), I don't think he's ever made a movie insincerely. Sucker Punch wasn't any good, but I still believe Snyder meant it with every bone in his body (you win some, you lose some). That's also not to mention that every movie he's made has been super geeky genre fare to its core. I don't think it's out of line to think this guy was probably pretty damn happy to get offered the ultimate superhero property. I'm sure he's read a couple issues of Superman. Who cares if his cred isn't up to snuff in the eyes of some maniacal uber fan like Kurosawa?

And bring on the way-out-there Superman movie. I don't care if it pisses off the fanboys. Good. All I care about is whether or not you do something interesting with the characters and tell a good story. That's it. If being faithful gets me a good movie, great! If changing things gets me a good movie, great.

I agree with you on this. However even you can understand that certain changes don't always jive with a dedicated fan. Not everyone will like the finished product but untill we see this finished product it's too early for any of us to judge either way.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Kurosawa is right about one thing, this project is a product of the Siegel/Shuster lawsuit. That isn't really debatable. They had no intention on moving forward with another Superman film until the lawsuit forced their hand on the matter.

If anything, that could be a blessing in disguise. If we get another quality Superman film, does it matter under what circumstances it came together?

In Snyder and Goyer's case though, both have expressed doubts in the past as to how to approach Superman but I like them both and I'm sure they'll give it their all.


Here are their previous quotes on Superman:

http://www.slashfilm.com/david-goyer-in-2006-explains-why-he-wouldnt-ever-be-good-to-write-superman/

“In the case of Blade, he is acting heroically, but the rest of the world thinks he’s a vigilante. As is the case with Batman. … I don’t think I’d ever be good to write Superman because it is the opposite… [the interviewer says "he's angst free"] Yeah. And I wouldn’t know the angle because I’m so angst ridden so I wouldn’t know what to do with a character like that.”

http://www.usatoday.com/life/2008-07-27-comic-con-wrapup_N.htm

"They asked me to direct a Superman movie, and I said no," Snyder says. "He's a tricky one nowadays, isn't he? He's the king daddy of all comic-book heroes, but I'm just not sure how you sell that kind of earnestness to a sophisticated audience anymore."

 

[Krumm]

Maybe you should read your link.

"Green is the color of nature. It symbolizes growth, harmony, freshness, and fertility. Green has strong emotional correspondence with safety. Dark green is also commonly associated with money.

Green has great healing power. It
is the most restful color for the human eye; it can improve vision. Green suggests stability and
endurance. Sometimes green denotes lack of experience; for example, a 'greenhorn' is a novice.
In heraldry, green indicates growth and hope. Green, as opposed to red, means safety; it is the color of
free passage in road traffic.

Use green to indicate safety when advertising drugs and medical
products. Green is directly related to nature, so you can use it to promote 'green' products. Dull, darker green is commonly associated with money, the financial world, banking, and Wall Street.

Dark green is associated with ambition, greed, and jealousy.
Yellow-green can indicate sickness, cowardice, discord, and jealousy.
Aqua is associated with emotional healing and protection.
Olive green is the traditional color of peace."

Not one word about scientists. Or knowledge.

Maybe you should read the first line of my post.