The Official Costume Thread - - - - - - - - - - Part 19

[CLARKY]

I hate Miller, I hate his Batman, I hate deconstructionists. I felt his books spat on and insulted Superman and a good many people agree with me.
I have nothing to say to a person who defends Miller's treatment of Superman. I cannot converse with a Frank Miller fan on the subject of Superman.

It is funny,in some ways, because I agree with you. To every single word, isn't it funny? I do not have your "excessive" (to a degree) point of view on what Superman is, but I don't have your knowledge of the character either. Miller liking Superman is something I find so stupid, when he spat on and insulted the character. it is also funnybecause I have too rarely seen the same with Superman leading the book and the author making batman laughable and ridiculous. That would be something to do.
Superman beingthe pawn of the government likea federal agent, it is just the view of Miller on the character, I think it is one of the biggest misconception about the character. On the other end, if there is one guy to do stupid things because he is stubborn, it is batman. He is always shown in the good light, but how many time could one think that his ways to do things would create problem and that the nice, comprehensive, diplomatic, not naiv, clever, cultivated or even simple approach of Superman would be good?
Kuro, you should know that what works today is decontructionism. It works because it makes the drama, and allow to break icons. Superman is a magnificent icon. Who would like a nice and clever Superman able (when needed) to beat the überbat? I would.
Right now everything is deconstructed to the point of losing what is good or bad, and makes things, just a matter of point of view. That, plus the fact that Superman is a positiv hero. Right now,a positive hero reacting with positivity to the actual real world is impossible. Not the mood, not the fashion. I suppose the loss of valorsand criterion, the victory of relativism makes a character like Superman looking like a joke. Deconstructivism, man.
I don't like Miller stuff, I find it bad very often, and his stuff about Superman has always been enigmatically ridiculous. I suppose I am narrow-minded too, because I am unable to talk with someone defending the Miller Superman.
Like I said,I agree with every word you just wrote.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

No, you said your friends' reactions are DC fault.

I think your misinterpreting what I said...

I'm not stupid. DC can't force anyone to like or dislike anything.

The fact is that it is DC's fault that TDKR was released. Whether you think that TDKR being released was a good thing for Superman or a bad thing, is up to you (though how anyone can read it and think it HELPED the character's popularity is beyond me).

It doesn't change the fact that it's release was entirely up to DC...

Therefore some of the blame for the effect it has had, is on them.

Probably people liking TDKR halped the sales. Why did they like it is mere speculation. But how could you 'blame' DC for people liking their products.
.

Of course it's speculation.

I used my friends as an example of a theory I am speculating. That I think a lot of people love TDKR so much BECAUSE it brings Superman 'down a notch'.

You find weird that DC supported a successful comic?

Well, from what I know, Batman sales weren't big at the time so they went with this original idea. It was a risk. And I'm sure, as you say yourself, that some people had problems with the Superman concept before TDKR.

DC didn't know it was going to be successful when the story was agreed for release.

What I can't understand is how they thought it was a good idea, and how they didn't see the negative effect it would have on Superman if Batman was suddenly portrayed as 'better' than him.

 

[BlueLantern]

It's a Batman story, and for Miller he wanted to show Batman winning. It's fine.

I'm sure if you pickup other Superman stories, you'll likely see Superman winning in some of them. Hell Geoff Johns is fulfilling that very concept in JL #2 which is out soon. Batman has his ass handed to him by Supes, a Supes I very much like.

 

[Marvin]

I don't see johns ever giving a damn thing to Batman.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

It's a Batman story, and for Miller he wanted to show Batman winning. It's fine.

I'm sure if you pickup other Superman stories, you'll likely see Superman winning in some of them. Hell Geoff Johns is fulfilling that very concept in JL #2 which is out soon. Batman has his ass handed to him by Supes, a Supes I very much like.

It's all the in the execution, and the amount of respect the writer gives each character in a scenario like that.

Geoff Johns, isn't doing it in the middle of a story that makes Batman out to be a government stooge. And I mean, I can't judge it until i've read it, but I very much doubt Batman is going to come out of it without getting a few shots in.

For the record, it's not like I hate every story that shows Batman 'beating' Superman. Their friendship comes for MUTUAL respect. And to earn that, he has to be able to prove that he is capable of surprising even Superman with what he can do, so it's neccesary to show him coming out with the upper hand occasionally.

It's when a writer takes a character like Superman, and portrays them in a very unflattering way, and then has the main character pitted against him in a 'beat down' type scenario that has the reader routing for him to win against the government pawn of a character they've made Superman appear to be. That I dislike.

 

[El Payaso]

I feel there is a difference between having an open mind and accepting treatment of a character that makes the character look bad and is harmful to the character, which in my opinion, DKR and DKSA did with Superman.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, how did I know that when you said you were not going to reply to my posts that was exactly what you were going to do.

Of course there's a difference there. Disliking something and labeling other people for accepting it. Difference there.

In fact, there is a study I have read concerning what factors have contributed to Superman's decline in popularity, and the conclusion it came to was that more than anything else, it is Superman being turned into a jobber that has hurt the character the most...and that can be traced directly back to DKR.

More power to Miller. One comic of him and 50 years of the most popular superhero are instantly destroyed.

But I don't buy it.

If Miller ever does his Superman story and shows the character any respect, then I'll be willing to revise my opinions on him as far as Superman goes. Until then, the only Superman work he has ever done that I don't dislike are some (badly drawn) covers to the Superman: The Secret Years mini series, and a section of Superman #400, brilliantly written by Maggin and badly drawn by Miller.

To make a long story short: not a fan of Frank Miller. I like his first Daredevil run (particularly when Roger Stern was writing the book) and that's it. And his treatment of Superman in DKR is where I started really disliking him. Although, IMO, he treated all the characters like crap. And what he did to Dick Grayson in DKSR was even worse.

You don't have to be a fan of Miller. It's a lot more simple than that. You just have to stop labelling fans as 'not true fans.'

The trouble with asking people to have an open mind is that you only tend to ask that when they dislike something that you like.

No. I don't care about someone else disliking something I like. It's about not being insulting or labeling people.

When you start thinking things like "Hey, maybe Hitler wasn't so bad" and "Evolution's cool and all, but what about Intelligent Design?", all of a sudden open minds aren't that great.

Opposite to your cliche and reductionist answer, I don't have a problem with any of that. One of my closest friends is a neonazi. And I ldon't have a problem discussing his opinion even if I don't share it.

I do, however, have a problem if Christian people or neonazis want to impose their opinions or calling me things for not sharing them.

I think your misinterpreting what I said...

I'm not stupid. DC can't force anyone to like or dislike anything.

The fact is that it is DC's fault that TDKR was released. Whether you think that TDKR being released was a good thing for Superman or a bad thing, is up to you (though how anyone can read it and think it HELPED the character's popularity is beyond me).

It doesn't change the fact that it's release was entirely up to DC...

Therefore some of the blame for the effect it has had, is on them.

The immense success of it and the way it changed Batman for the better is also DC's merit.

I don't say it helped Superman's popularity, but to say that it was why Superman's popularity was destroyed is hilarious.

And then again, you mentioned your friends' opinion so naturally I thought it was that what affected you.

Of course it's speculation.

I used my friends as an example of a theory I am speculating. That I think a lot of people love TDKR so much BECAUSE it brings Superman 'down a notch'.

And you don't even know if your friends liked TDKR for that reason only. Sure, they enjoyed laughing at that. I like certain aspects of something, doesn't mean I like that specifically for that aspect alone.

DC didn't know it was going to be successful when the story was agreed for release.

What I can't understand is how they thought it was a good idea, and how they didn't see the negative effect it would have on Superman if Batman was suddenly portrayed as 'better' than him.

Probably they thought it was a good story and people would be more mature than that. They surely didn't think it could destroy their most important character's reputation, which it didn't. Superman around the globe has a reputation of embodying American's imperialism long before TDKR. If anything I'd be blaming things like Superman's (in)famous "Slap a Jap" poster more.

 

[KRIM]

I don't see johns ever giving a damn thing to Batman.

Johns is writing the Batman: Earth One series and has been quoted as waiting to tackle the character for years.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I expect that book will be terrible, Johns just cannot write Bruce Wayne, though I will admit, he usually does the whole "rookie that makes mistakes" bit quite well. The only compelling story he has written with Bruce happened to feature Bruce contemplating destroying all reality and having a nervous breakdown.

 

[ElDuderino]

Can someone please point me in the direction of the suit thread? It seems to have been misplaced.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

It's gone the way of the underoos.

 

[Marvin]

Johns is writing the Batman: Earth One series and has been quoted as waiting to tackle the character for years.

Like I said.

And what's this, another earth one series? I thought DCnew was already underway.(what's going on with dc management)

 

[hopefuldreamer]

The immense success of it and the way it changed Batman for the better is also DC's merit.

I don't say it helped Superman's popularity, but to say that it was why Superman's popularity was destroyed is hilarious.

And then again, you mentioned your friends' opinion so naturally I thought it was that what affected you.

And you don't even know if your friends liked TDKR for that reason only. Sure, they enjoyed laughing at that. I like certain aspects of something, doesn't mean I like that specifically for that aspect alone.

Probably they thought it was a good story and people would be more mature than that. They surely didn't think it could destroy their most important character's reputation, which it didn't. Superman around the globe has a reputation of embodying American's imperialism long before TDKR. If anything I'd be blaming things like Superman's (in)famous "Slap a Jap" poster more.

To end this debate, which has escalated so far it's ridiculous, I will say this.

I don't care that Snyder said he liked it. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Don't think it'll affect this film, for the reasons I stated a few pages back.

But I don't like it. I don't think it's a good story, I don't like the style of the artwork, and I don't like the way Superman was portrayed in it.

I also don't like the fact that before I even read it, people were using it as ammo to bash Superman in front of me. And still do, to this day.

Kuro made some good points, that were all a matter of opinion and theory, as to the effects that graphic novel has had on both characters, and what DC where thinking during it's release. I thought those theories made sense.

I have nothing else to say.

If you think those theories are 'hilarious' then laugh it up. I have no problem with that either. It's just an idea, it's not absolute fact.

Can someone please point me in the direction of the suit thread? It seems to have been misplaced.

I think it's the lack of pics that has people distracted.

Here, maybe this will help reignite the debates

 

[Marvin]

After that first photo, I thought he had these cool folds in his forearms. Now that I see the truth, eh.

I just realized that since he's going to be wearing a suit more dense than anything that can be found in say Iron Man. I doubt we'll see even a single tear. sigh.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

After that first photo, I thought he had these cool folds in his forearms. Now that I see the truth, eh.

I just realized that since he's going to be wearing a suit more dense than anything that can be found in say Iron Man. I doubt we'll see even a single tear. sigh.

I'm cool with no tears.

There's still plenty of room for rubble/debris and blood

 

[Marvin]

I'm cool with no tears.

There's still plenty of room for rubble/debris and blood

Applied to the death of superman ark and I'm sure you see the Marvel Studios appeal in that arrangement.

 

[camp Blood]

just tooling around in photoshop nothing serious , no need to get angry or anything

 

[hopefuldreamer]

just tooling around in photoshop nothing serious , no need to get angry or anything

That's just outrageous!

 

[Compi716]

just tooling around in photoshop nothing serious , no need to get angry or anything

Gold, red, any color alternative is better than what we have so far (I think).

 

[camp Blood]

sorry hopeful it's just sometimes people will flip out on me for posting a silly picture of a simple quick idea I had

 

[hopefuldreamer]

sorry hopeful it's just sometimes people will flip out on me for posting a silly picture of a simple quick idea I had

I know I just couldn't resist

 

[Tyrone Parker]

sorry hopeful it's just sometimes people will flip out on me for posting a silly picture of a simple quick idea I had

I don't know why anyone would flip out. It definately looks better that way.

 

[camp Blood]

added gold cuffs for the hell of it and made the yellow of the logo a more golden color

 

[JAK®]

Gold cuffs make me think of Captain Marvel, but I like the gold detailing.

 

[camp Blood]

that was my original hesitation of putting them on but then i was like "what the hell"

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Not liking the gold at all. To be honest, my only real criticism of the new suit (aside from its dark color) is the piping on his lower torso and legs. Changing it to gold makes it much more noticeable.